Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Although not confirmed, it looks like the first leaks of the surface fleet review are out.







This suggests that many of the observations made by others here are correct - final 3 Hunters replaced with Destroyers as well as adding 3-6 "corvettes".

Other than the timing for the destroyers, nothing on timing, conops or about the Arafuras so far.

Doesn't seem like much will happen quickly unless Lurrssen/Civmec is switching from Arafura to "corvette" (whatever that means).
I don't know of any Air Warfare Destroyers with 150 VLS cells though. And 6 times the number of missiles a Hunter can carry? Even if we got DDGs with 96 cells that would be 64 ESSM +80 other missiles and that would make 144 v 56, so at best 3 times.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
If I read correctly it was "five times" the number of cells that a Hunter has which would be 150. Currently the closest thing to that is the Sejong the Great-class of South Korea with 128 cells. Given some current concepts of next generation destroyers I consider 150 cells to be well within the realm of possibility by 2030 and beyond.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
If I read correctly it was "five times" the number of cells that a Hunter has which would be 150. Currently the closest thing to that is the Sejong the Great-class of South Korea with 128 cells. Given some current concepts of next generation destroyers I consider 150 cells to be well within the realm of possibility by 2030 and beyond.
HHI Launches South Korea's First KDX III Batch II Destroyer - Naval News
No, current concepts are towards larger VLS cells not more. The batch 2 Sejong the Greats are being built with only 88, 48 Mk 41, 16 K-VLS and 24 of the larger KVLS-II which are for the next gen Supersonic AShM. Unless the Chinese are secretly building them there is no declared design with 150 VLS cells planned. And to be honest, why would you build ships with 150 VLS anyway? Cost over $1B to fill them. Be far better off with 2 ships with 72-80 VLS.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
HHI Launches South Korea's First KDX III Batch II Destroyer - Naval News
No, current concepts are towards larger VLS cells not more. The batch 2 Sejong the Greats are being built with only 88, 48 Mk 41, 16 K-VLS and 24 of the larger KVLS-II which are for the next gen Supersonic AShM. Unless the Chinese are secretly building them there is no declared design with 150 VLS cells planned. And to be honest, why would you build ships with 150 VLS anyway? Cost over $1B to fill them. Be far better off with 2 ships with 72-80 VLS.
I don’t see how something like this built in Australia would be any cheaper than a Hunter so it would be a change of threat in the past 5 years from sub to air that the brass must be onto. Swapping capability from anti sub to anti air or anti surface.

GOD might be thinking right now why did we get an American Admiral from a Navy heavy on heavily armed DDGs and heavy firepower on most fleet assets to do this review?

Unless all the recommendations are redacted and never released it will be hard for them to say they are not following the recommendations of the review they initiated with the team they selected.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sad day, wish we had em now with upgraded radar and a 32 cell Mk 41, not the slightest bit of rust when it retired.

HMAS Hobart's Decommissioning Ceremony - YouTube
Unfortunately a killer is a lack of volume and human engineering. They could never be upgraded to be survivable these days, and the cost of attempting to do so would be more than the cost of something much better.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I remember when one of the USN Adams, USS Cochrane, visited Sydney in the late 1970s, there was a media report that she was the fastest of the class in the US fleet, and that she was going to try her luck against her RAN sisters (which were also said to be very fast). Never heard if that happened or how it went. Does anyone happen to know?
Hobart had a drag with a USN Adams, I think Cochrane, off the Phillipines in ‘86. It was over 10 miles I seem to remember. Hobart won. There was bit of a slop and I don’t think we got much above 35 knots. Rowan Moffat was navigating Hobart at the time and would probably remember better than I do.

At the time of the Mr Brown affair in 1971, I was in Derwent. One of the DDGs,
Perth I think, was exercising off JB and was ordered to come to the area to take over from us as on scene commander for any possible SAR. We plotted her coming up the coast at over 38 knots; of course, that was speed over ground so she might have had a knot or two of current behind her.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The whole concept of engaging BAE to design and build the hunters was to develop a continuous ship building program, backed by a sovereign warship design capability.

Building six hunters while designing the new DDGs to follow straight on from the hunters in an experienced yard staffed by a competent experienced work force is exactly this.

For a ship with first of class in the late 2030s I would hope it is a new design.

These are not meant to be cheaper than the hunters, they are meant to be better value for money. This can, and likely does, mean larger, more survivable and better armed.

Every single time Australia has gone for smaller cheaper ships in order to increase numbers, we have ended up with the same numbers or even fewer, but individually less capable platforms.

Time to reverse this.

It is sounding like the corvettes will likely be a supplement to, rather than a replacement for the hunters, and may replace later or planned additional arafuras. Earlier arafuras may end up being converted for other roles, i.e. mcmv.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The whole concept of engaging BAE to design and build the hunters was to develop a continuous ship building program, backed by a sovereign warship design capability.

Building six hunters while designing the new DDGs to follow straight on from the hunters in an experienced yard staffed by a competent experienced work force is exactly this.

For a ship with first of class in the late 2030s I would hope it is a new design.

These are not meant to be cheaper than the hunters, they are meant to be better value for money. This can, and likely does, mean larger, more survivable and better armed.

Every single time Australia has gone for smaller cheaper ships in order to increase numbers, we have ended up with the same numbers or even fewer, but individually less capable platforms.

Time to reverse this.

It is sounding like the corvettes will likely be a supplement to, rather than a replacement for the hunters, and may replace later or planned additional arafuras. Earlier arafuras may end up being converted for other roles, i.e. mcmv.
I wouldn't discount the possibility that any new AWD might be based on the Hunter class as per the BAE proposal. By ship six the Hunter program would be in full swing and just producing an AWD variant could be the most cost effective solution.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
This seems to be tentatively good news to me.

I read “corvette style” as the journo’s words and not a direct quote, and hope this actually means a GP / Patrol frigate eg Mogami or Type 31. Fingers crossed.

So if our target state fleet is 6x DDG (Hunter based Type 83 / DDG(X) or similar), 6x FFG (Hunters) and 6x GP/Patrol (Type 31 / Mogami) that actually seems like a suitable and achievable fleet that would also sustain a continuous build.

Seems like a good outcome?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Of course there is no detail or conformation yet, but it does sound plausible and achievable.

Two batches of hunter followed by three DDGs means the government can announce, even kick of the design/selection, but most of the funding and orders will be years off.

Switch from OPV to corvettes, while not perfect, would see an increase in capability in the short term.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
Also that we end up acquiring corvettes which are insufficient for our geographic requirements.
While I get to need to rotate MFUs on deployments some ships will always be needed to patrol our coastal shipping lanes and harbors.
Perhaps this is the intended role of the "corvettes".

Still like many, I would prefer a patrol/G P frigate that can do both. Just not with the same level of protection and firepower.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Navantia vs Babcock in the AFR
There is an illuminating passage in that AFR article:

“Sources said the review has recommended the navy acquire a smaller “tier 2″ corvette or light frigate-style warship, with the choice between Spanish shipbuilder Navantia and British shipbuilder Babcock. These warships would be able to carry missiles and have a longer range than the navy’s offshore patrol vessels currently under construction.”

Sounds like at least an Alfa 3000, and perhaps a Type 31 are the preferred options rather than an upgunned OPV.
 

H_K

Member
Sources said the review has recommended the navy acquire a smaller “tier 2″ corvette or light frigate-style warship, with the choice between Spanish shipbuilder Navantia and British shipbuilder Babcock. These warships would be able to carry missiles and have a longer range than the navy’s offshore patrol vessels currently under construction.”

Sounds like at least an Alfa 3000, and perhaps a Type 31 are the preferred options rather than an upgunned OPV.
I doubt any design or vendor is preferred at this stage.

The review won’t have done a technical evaluation of corvette/light frigate options. All they may have done is state high level requirements and mention a range of plausible designs for illustrative purposes. There will have to be an RFI/RFP process and you can bet more vendors will be invited and more designs considered.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
I doubt any design or vendor is preferred at this stage.

The review won’t have done a technical evaluation of corvette/light frigate options. All they may have done is state high level requirements and mention a range of plausible designs for illustrative purposes. There will have to be an RFI/RFP process and you can bet more vendors will be invited and more designs considered.
Fair enough. But it is at least indicative that the “Tier 2” / “Corvette like” option may be larger than many had feared. Fingers crossed.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
There is an illuminating passage in that AFR article:

“Sources said the review has recommended the navy acquire a smaller “tier 2″ corvette or light frigate-style warship, with the choice between Spanish shipbuilder Navantia and British shipbuilder Babcock. These warships would be able to carry missiles and have a longer range than the navy’s offshore patrol vessels currently under construction.”

Sounds like at least an Alfa 3000, and perhaps a Type 31 are the preferred options rather than an upgunned OPV.
There was reports earlier this year that Navantia offered Australia six Alpha 3000 Corvettes/Light Frigates for $10B. I suspect a Babcock offer would be based on the Arrowhead 120 design, the A140 (Type 31) is in a completely different class altogether.
Arrowhead-120-EN-DIGITAL.pdf (babcockinternational.com)
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Reading both the AFR and SMH articles there are clear contradictions. Both talk about a shift from 3 DDG + 9 FFG to 6 DDG + 6 FFG + 3 to 6 CVT instead of OPVs. That is the good news. Hull numbers for armed warships are going up not down. Corvettes are additional and DDG/FFG totals are remaining constant.

But the discussion of both Navantia and BAE options for DDGs and Navantia and Babcock for Corvettes suggests that the choice of which designs will be chosen is pure speculation. I don’t think either article is well written in not making what is news and what is speculation.
 

BPFP

Member
Reading both the AFR and SMH articles there are clear contradictions. Both talk about a shift from 3 DDG + 9 FFG to 6 DDG + 6 FFG + 3 to 6 CVT instead of OPVs. That is the good news. Hull numbers for armed warships are going up not down. Corvettes are additional and DDG/FFG totals are remaining constant.

But the discussion of both Navantia and BAE options for DDGs and Navantia and Babcock for Corvettes suggests that the choice of which designs will be chosen is pure speculation. I don’t think either article is well written in not making what is news and what is speculation.
The AFR article also clearly states that all 12 OPVs will still be built in addition to the (recommended) 3-6 light frigates:

It is understood German shipbuilder Luerssen will be able to finish building its 12 offshore patrol vessels, with the government said to be reluctant to tear up another defence deal with a European contractor.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The AFR article also clearly states that all 12 OPVs will still be built in addition to the (recommended) 3-6 light frigates:

It is understood German shipbuilder Luerssen will be able to finish building its 12 offshore patrol vessels, with the government said to be reluctant to tear up another defence deal with a European contractor.
We still need the OPVs they play an important role in Australia's security, we are not allowed to sink foreign fishing vessels with SSMs.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Two batches of hunter followed by three DDGs means the government can announce, even kick of the design/selection, but most of the funding and orders will be years off.
Indeed.

from the article
“Hilarides definitely backed a further destroyer-type capability,” a source briefed on the contents of the review but not authorised to speak publicly said.

These ships could be made at Adelaide’s Osborne shipyards using the same hull as the Hunter-class frigates under a proposal to be submitted by BAE Systems, the British defence firm that designed the Hunter-class ships.
and..

Defence analyst Michael Shoebridge backed the idea of giving the navy more firepower but feared the additional destroyers could take over a decade to hit the water.
So slashing the Hunter class to a class of 6, while ordering 3 destroyers based off the same hull, isn't exactly unexpected. As part of that process the tender should at least benchmark, Burkes and similar western destroyers. BAE themselves have been talking about this as an option for quite a while now. Even if something crazy happened, like they selected a KDXIII or burke, it would still be built at ASC probably by BAE.

I think any Hobart 2.0 deal is dead. The Hobart sized ~7000t ship isn't big enough to perform landstrike with TLAM and BMD as well as its main job. Its not just slightly more Air defence capability, its significantly more capability. With 200 TLAM, no way can Hobarts carry that kind of land strike capability. You would need ~15 hobart destroyers.

I don't know about Alpha 3000 and Babcock. We signed a contract and are building ships from lurrsen/NVL. Lurrsen has the OPV90 design, and have indicated they could swap into it, and that their contracts and arrangements would allow this.
It said pivoting the existing OPV production line at Henderson created exceptionally advantageous circumstances which under the procurement rules allowed Defence to do a fast-track limited tender directly to Luerssen.

Speaking to Australian reporters in Hamburg, Peter Luerssen, Head of the parent company Naval Vessels Lurssen (NVL), said the company had demonstrated that it took Australian industry content very seriously.

“We are above the threshold we needed originally. We have a great experience. We understand how the Commonwealth works and we will be in the position to respond to whatever need the government may have, in my belief, faster than any competitor,” he said.

“We can have the first ship in the water by 2028.”
I think the corvette thing is going to have a lot of pressure on it in terms of build speed. I don't know if we have money or time for another selection process for a small combatant. I also think they are a temporary fix, and that within 10 years when larger ships come on line, they can be sold to allies (possibly through NVL) in the region.

I'm not sure the capability difference between a Alpha 3000 and a NVL OPV90 based corvette, in the RAN, are worth spending another $3-$4b on selection and another 5 years.

You could literally build another 12+ corvettes for the same amount of money and time to merely select a Alpha 3000 or arrow120 and build zero of them. They all do approximately the same job. However, I would say by size alone the Arrow120 is likely to be out of the running, its ~50% larger the than the current OPV, its never been built so would have a massive risk profile, Babcock isn't building ships in Australia currently, and has no arrangement with a yard, currently in Australia.

Selecting new platforms and contractors isn't free. The government of the day can direct all blame onto previous governments which spec and order the original Sea1180 OPV. This is the best and quickest they can do under the current arrangements.

At least we know what the future possibly would look like.
 
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