Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Morgo

Well-Known Member
The AFR article also clearly states that all 12 OPVs will still be built in addition fo the (recommended) light frigates:

It is understood German shipbuilder Luerssen will be able to finish building its 12 offshore patrol vessels, with the government said to be reluctant to tear up another defence deal with a European contractor.
Even better news. 18 MFUs + 12 OPVs is a great outcome. When combined with the JSS, increased amphib capability (which will presumably be, at a minimum, jointly operated with Army if not outright RAN vessels) and the SSNs the RAN is looking like a serious force to be reckoned with in the 2040s.

Now how the hell do they plan on crewing them!
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Indeed.

from the article

and..



So slashing the Hunter class to a class of 6, while ordering 3 destroyers based off the same hull, isn't exactly unexpected. As part of that process the tender should at least benchmark, Burkes and similar western destroyers. BAE themselves have been talking about this as an option for quite a while now. Even if something crazy happened, like they selected a KDXIII or burke, it would still be built at ASC probably by BAE.

I think any Hobart 2.0 deal is dead. The Hobart sized ~7000t ship isn't big enough to perform landstrike with TLAM and BMD as well as its main job. Its not just slightly more Air defence capability, its significantly more capability. With 200 TLAM, no way can Hobarts carry that kind of land strike capability. You would need ~15 hobart destroyers.

I don't know about Alpha 3000 and Babcock. We signed a contract and are building ships from lurrsen/NVL. Lurrsen has the OPV90 design, and have indicated they could swap into it, and that their contracts and arrangements would allow this.


I think the corvette thing is going to have a lot of pressure on it in terms of build speed. I don't know if we have money or time for another selection process for a small combatant. I also think they are a temporary fix, and that within 10 years when larger ships come on line, they can be sold to allies (possibly through NVL) in the region.

I'm not sure the capability difference between a Alpha 3000 and a NVL OPV90 based corvette, in the RAN, are worth spending another $3-$4b on selection and another 5 years.

You could literally build another 12+ corvettes for the same amount of money and time to merely select a Alpha 3000 or arrow120 and build zero of them. They all do approximately the same job. However, I would say by size alone the Arrow120 is likely to be out of the running, its ~50% larger the than the current OPV, its never been built so would have a massive risk profile, Babcock isn't building ships in Australia currently, and has no arrangement with a yard, currently in Australia.

Selecting new platforms and contractors isn't free. The government of the day can direct all blame onto previous governments which spec and order the original Sea1180 OPV. This is the best and quickest they can do under the current arrangements.

At least we know what the future possibly would look like.
I am generally not a fan of Captain’s Picks. Some have worked out well, some have not. But given our current circumstances we can’t delay.

Albo and Marles need to step up and make a decision, and quickly.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
If the leaks are correct there would seem to be a tacit admission that there is no quick fix for the navy. Really the Hunter/DDG suggestion is just rebalancing the surface fleet and a corvette type vessel is so vague of a description that it will probably require another study to define what it actually is.

My first impression is that the Arafura will go on as is with some sort of follow on class in the 2030s

A couple of projects often overlooked are the replacement of the MCM and Hydro fleets. At the moment it is assumed they will just be more Arafuras but really replacing those vessels with a new class of Corvette type ships wouldn’t be out of the question.
 
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devo99

Well-Known Member
While I get to need to rotate MFUs on deployments some ships will always be needed to patrol our coastal shipping lanes and harbors.
Perhaps this is the intended role of the "corvettes".

Still like many, I would prefer a patrol/G P frigate that can do both. Just not with the same level of protection and firepower.
I'd prefer the OPVs do the OPV job so that other more expensive and capable assets can do other things.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Even better news. 18 MFUs + 12 OPVs is a great outcome. When combined with the JSS, increased amphib capability (which will presumably be, at a minimum, jointly operated with Army if not outright RAN vessels) and the SSNs the RAN is looking like a serious force to be reckoned with in the 2040s.

Now how the hell do they plan on crewing them!
Kill joy alert

As desirable as this sized fleet might be, we need to be mindful of what to expect.
We are not going to be the size of the royal navy minus it's carriers.

What we look like in 2040 I cannot say, but the history of our ship building and the ebb and flow of government compromises suggest to me this is very optimistic.

Just a thought S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The AFR article also clearly states that all 12 OPVs will still be built in addition to the (recommended) 3-6 light frigates:

It is understood German shipbuilder Luerssen will be able to finish building its 12 offshore patrol vessels, with the government said to be reluctant to tear up another defence deal with a European contractor.
Agree that all 12 OPV 's will be built.

The unknowns for the 80m Arafutra class.

Can they diversify missions to encompass without modification the MCM and Survey role. Hopefully their flexibile mission deck with cranes and container capacity is sufficient.
Ability to carry the not so small MCM boats I'm not sure.

If the Corvette thing is in the RAN fleet mix , are Lurrsen with their 90m offerings in the mix as well.
If so are they a stop gap solution or long term part of the fleet?

Assuming all 12 Arafura' S do get built.
What does the main gun look like?


Cheers S
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Agree that all 12 OPV 's will be built.

The unknowns for the 80m Arafutra class.

Can they diversify missions to encompass without modification the MCM and Survey role. Hopefully their flexibile mission deck with cranes and container capacity is sufficient.
Ability to carry the not so small MCM boats I'm not sure.

If the Corvette thing is in the RAN fleet mix , are Lurrsen with their 90m offerings in the mix as well.
If so are they a stop gap solution or long term part of the fleet?

Assuming all 12 Arafura' S do get built.
What does the main gun look like?


Cheers S
What we could get, is Corvettes replacing the extra 6 or so Arafura's planned for the MCM and Survey roles, with the current 12 Arafura's being given that role as well as traditional OPV roles. You can still use your Corvettes as OPVs, I don't think we are going to get any decision on the Arafura gun anytime soon as they may be waiting on any decisions on Corvettes/Light Frigates first and what gun they put on those. They could decide on the 57mm right across the Arafura/Corvette fleet, doubt they would go 76mm across both fleets and 40mm may be seen as too light for Corvettes.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Although not confirmed, it looks like the first leaks of the surface fleet review are out.
The cost overruns etc in that article would be one reason why NZ would / should stay well away from Hunter Class frigates.
I don't think it's much of a surprise that the Admiral from the navy made up mostly of DDGs said we should get more DDGs.
And I agree that we need the additional air warfare capability.
If this leak is credible then the main worries I have are that the government or future government turn the 3 DDGs into a Hobart replacement instead of an addition to them.
Also that we end up acquiring corvettes which are insufficient for our geographic requirements. Ideally somebody convinces parliament that Japan's 30FFM design is a corvette or alternatively we get something like the Thaon di Revel-class "OPV" from Italy which has a range of 5,000nmi and theoretical capability of fitting 16 tactical or strike length Mk 41 VLS cells.
Points of interest are that the corvettes would apparently not involve the OPVs or more Hunters being cancelled and also that a DDG with "up to 150" VLS cells is on the table.
The Mogami Class FFM cost less than US$500 million to build per ship. Vital statistics for it and the RAN Anzac Class are:

Length130 meters (426 feet 6 inches) (Source)118 meters (387 feet) overall
Beam16 meters (52 ft 6 in) (Source)14.8 meters (49 ft)
DraftUnknown4.35 meters (14.3 ft)
Standard displacement3,900 tons2,900 tons (Source)
Full load displacement5,500 tons3600 tons
RangeUnknown6000 NM (11000 km) at 18 knots (33 km/h)
Speed30+ knots (Source)27 knots (50 km/h)
Compliment90177
VLS cells168

Instead of having as a corvette it could be a light patrol frigate.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If I read correctly it was "five times" the number of cells that a Hunter has which would be 150. Currently the closest thing to that is the Sejong the Great-class of South Korea with 128 cells. Given some current concepts of next generation destroyers I consider 150 cells to be well within the realm of possibility by 2030 and beyond.
It's all very well having 150 cells, but how will you fill them? The cost of each load out will be eye watering and something that the RAN most likely won't be able to afford to sustain. Next what about crew and crew size? Where are you going to get the crew from?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Agree that all 12 OPV 's will be built.

The unknowns for the 80m Arafutra class.

Can they diversify missions to encompass without modification the MCM and Survey role. Hopefully their flexibile mission deck with cranes and container capacity is sufficient.
Ability to carry the not so small MCM boats I'm not sure.

If the Corvette thing is in the RAN fleet mix , are Lurrsen with their 90m offerings in the mix as well.
If so are they a stop gap solution or long term part of the fleet?

Assuming all 12 Arafura' S do get built.
What does the main gun look like?


Cheers S
I think the Arafuras will continue being built because there is simply no other option at this stage. Follow on orders will need to be placed soon to keep the yard in work. Also I am not sure of the value of interim solutions. Better to just look at a new class of warship with an eye to get them into service ASAP.

I think the navy could face a crunch period between 2030 and 2040. It wouldn't surprise me if we lost all of the ANZACs during that time and it seems like we may only have 5 or 6 new Hunters built in time to replace them in service. That could see the number of surface combattants drop to 8 or 9 frigates and Destroyers. Even if we did manage to build 3 to 6 light frigates in the thirties it might still only maintain the status quo.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The cost overruns etc in that article would be one reason why NZ would / should stay well away from Hunter Class frigates.

The Mogami Class FFM cost less than US$500 million to build per ship. Vital statistics for it and the RAN Anzac Class are:

Length130 meters (426 feet 6 inches) (Source)118 meters (387 feet) overall
Beam16 meters (52 ft 6 in) (Source)14.8 meters (49 ft)
DraftUnknown4.35 meters (14.3 ft)
Standard displacement3,900 tons2,900 tons (Source)
Full load displacement5,500 tons3600 tons
RangeUnknown6000 NM (11000 km) at 18 knots (33 km/h)
Speed30+ knots (Source)27 knots (50 km/h)
Compliment90177
VLS cells168

Instead of having as a corvette it could be a light patrol frigate.
I think the biggest difference between the Anzacs and a modern equiv for the RAN is the major reduction of crew sizes. The Hunters at 2.5 times the size of the Anzacs only require 20-30 more crew. The MEKO A200 which is the modern version of the Anzac is down to about 120.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
What we could get, is Corvettes replacing the extra 6 or so Arafura's planned for the MCM and Survey roles, with the current 12 Arafura's being given that role as well as traditional OPV roles. You can still use your Corvettes as OPVs, I don't think we are going to get any decision on the Arafura gun anytime soon as they may be waiting on any decisions on Corvettes/Light Frigates first and what gun they put on those. They could decide on the 57mm right across the Arafura/Corvette fleet, doubt they would go 76mm across both fleets and 40mm may be seen as too light for Corvettes.
I think there is something in what your saying.
The suggested 6 to 8 addition OPV 80s for the MCM / Survey role may indeed be morphed into the initial 12 Arafuras.
Hopefully the OPV 80 design permits this.

Now additionally hulls for a more robust mission set.
Will these be classified as major fleets units?

This is the numbers game!

Cheers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am generally not a fan of Captain’s Picks. Some have worked out well, some have not. But given our current circumstances we can’t delay.
Albo and Marles need to step up and make a decision, and quickly.
Captains picks shouldn't be about undermining a selection process that is able to be conducted. However, if there is no time/money for a selection due to failure or crisis, any option is better than nothing. The Superhornets, for example, were a sensible last resort option. It has been better to live with that than let capability outright die and have nothing. now decades later, not only was the superhornet the reasonable emergency choice, we are choosing to keep them instead of more F-35s.

The Anzacs are old ships, designed for a different world, and are tired. At some stage we will have to let them go or they will not be reliable enough to perform the mission, and we will have situations where like Tobroken, where it was languishing off Sydney heads likely to be smashed up against rocks. Not only is a lack of real capability, its a hazard to crew, and costs more to operate for fewer hours at sea than if we had just replaced it. We can decommission some, to have spares to raid to keep the others afloat, but they aren't the ideal 2040 weapon naval platform.

Not only that Henderson is running out of ships to build.

There is no time to stop building Arafuras, 6 are already in the metal, and the remaining 6 are already contracted and in the process, with items already acquired. Since the plan was to use something Arafura like for the MCM platform, using them as OCV and MCM platforms seems, highly appropriate.

They could decide on the 57mm right across the Arafura/Corvette fleet, doubt they would go 76mm across both fleets and 40mm may be seen as too light for Corvettes.
Just fit the 20/25/30mm typhoon and be done with it for the OPV's. Why go to the cost and time of acquiring a new small gun, that an existing gun can do just as well. Instead of wasting the time and money selecting something like a 57mm, just fit the 30mm typhoon to the OPVs and the 76mm to the "corvettes" as that is too a gun the RAN has logistics, training and operation with. Is there anything to be gained acquiring anything else?

6 "Corvettes" if we want to use that term could be built. While this a bit of reconfiguration of the Patrol/Mine hunting/Surveying part of the navy, it doesn't seem like anything people would be hugely angry about. The Arafura's are much more capable than the older Patrol craft, and generally as capable as the survey ships, and potentially more roomy and capable platforms than the Huons. In tonnage, we should end up way ahead.

Then throw in 6 "Armed OPV/Corvettes" well, we can crew and operate that without affecting the major fleet units, and you get 6 ships that may be useful across the region. So then we are well up on tonnage, and pretty equal on numbers, and way up on capability.

It's all very well having 150 cells, but how will you fill them? The cost of each load out will be eye watering and something that the RAN most likely won't be able to afford to sustain.
I don't think the load out is absurd as people think.

we had 6 FFG, each assumed with a full load of 40 SM-2. 6x40 gets us ~240. Then we bought possibly another 80x Sm-2IIIB in 2016 for Hobarts.
Plus SM-6 and SM-2 Blk IIIC. The plan would be say ~16-24 for each hunter, so I imagine the first 3 batches are well in pipe. So another 70-200
Plus 200+20 TLAM
Plus ESSM blk II around $2b worth. Hard to say exactly how much, for upgrades, new missiles, training etc But could be ~1000. Well we probably have ~260 of the suckers in the anzacs, probably another 200 on Hobarts.

So we probably have around 320 older SM-2, with another 200 SM-2/SM-6 coming in already budgeted for, working towards perhaps ~2000 ESSM.
While naval munitions are expensive, its the kind of expensive Australia likes in its defence acquisitions, each item is say a million, and can be ordered in batches off a hot production line.

Australia has potentially reasonable stocks of things like SDB (Perhaps nearly 4000). So this kind of thinking IMO isn't outrageous. Australia knows it is far away, and it isn't part of any NATO type munitions stockpiling or sharing type arrangement.

The biggest issue Australia has right now in terms of munitions, is where to put them. The only ship that can carry and fire the Tomahawks is the Hobarts, and we have over 73 tomahawks for each Hobart. Realistically it is doubtful a Hobart would carry any more than about 6 TLAM without compromising its capability as AWD. Having 12 full reloads for all 3 ships of a first strike weapon is perhaps not ideal. Ideally we would have more cells at sea ready for strike.

I don't want to get caught up in VLS counts, but IMO 64-96 VLS would be fairly appropriate for the RAN given its current inventory, already announced purchases, and threats and desired capabilities. I don't think that would break AusGov or the RAN.

Next what about crew and crew size? Where are you going to get the crew from?
Crew would and always have been absolutely critical. Which is the strongest reason why we won't buy a burke and currently do not operate one. If BAE can put together a proposal for a ship with 64-96 VLS and ~200 crew, I would imagine the RAN and the Gov would be all over it.

Crews are mind numbingly expensive, recruitment, salaries, super, health, training, on costs, etc.

IMO the author or source probably mean as many as a 150 missiles not cells. Which a ship with 96 VLS would be able to carry. Say 48-64 ESSM, would give around a 150 missiles per ship based off a burke type design. And a Burke design should be the benchmark.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
The whole concept of engaging BAE to design and build the hunters was to develop a continuous ship building program, backed by a sovereign warship design capability.

Building six hunters while designing the new DDGs to follow straight on from the hunters in an experienced yard staffed by a competent experienced work force is exactly this.

For a ship with first of class in the late 2030s I would hope it is a new design.
Plus, proper force structure means we should be starting to consider the Hobart replacement now. The FFG debacle is because we didn't do this with Adelaide or Anzac classes. You start scoping and planning replacement very soon after delivery, it allows a smooth handover. This is particularly important for a ship-building industry as it has no valleys of death.

Although not confirmed, it looks like the first leaks of the surface fleet review are out.
Hard to take an article seriously that says the DDGs are heavily armed, but the Hunters are underarmed. So all that's needed is 8 additional VLS? Ha!

Of course there is no detail or conformation yet, but it does sound plausible and achievable.

Two batches of hunter followed by three DDGs means the government can announce, even kick of the design/selection, but most of the funding and orders will be years off.

Switch from OPV to corvettes, while not perfect, would see an increase in capability in the short term.
Further highlighting what a joke this "greatest strategic threat eva!" is. Actions speak louder than words, and all the actions show that not only is Beijing not a threat, but there is no real risk of conflict in our region.

It's all very well having 150 cells, but how will you fill them? The cost of each load out will be eye watering and something that the RAN most likely won't be able to afford to sustain. Next what about crew and crew size? Where are you going to get the crew from?
Pshaw - we don't need to consider FIC @ngatimozart ! Just buy some hulls! It's not hard! o_O

Note the common thread in these "experts", especially most quoted in the article that are heavy on Twitter, they ignore capability over kit. Let's just pause and conjure up 8x FFG or DDG in Sydney Harbour right now. Don't care what type, lets just ask some questions:
- who is crewing them? (RAN + ADFHQ)
- where are the crew living off-ship? (DHA)
- where are the spares? (CASG)
- what is the whole logistics chain? (CASG)
- where are the weapons coming from? (GWEOG)
- is there sufficient dock / mooring space? (RAN + SEG)

Unless you can give detailed answers on these, you don't have a capability. You have 8 hulls. They'll look pretty (maybe, there may not even be enough crew to keep the rust off) and they'll absorb and missile attacks against FBE, but they'll otherwise be useless.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Although not confirmed, it looks like the first leaks of the surface fleet review are out.







This suggests that many of the observations made by others here are correct - final 3 Hunters replaced with Destroyers as well as adding 3-6 "corvettes".

Other than the timing for the destroyers, nothing on timing, conops or about the Arafuras so far.

Doesn't seem like much will happen quickly unless Lurrssen/Civmec is switching from Arafura to "corvette" (whatever that means).
Sounds like RN type mix, with Type 31 (corvette armament but Aust level range), Type 26, and perhaps an upgunned Hunter/new design. No mention of ship numbers though, so hope it means a jump back to 15-18 ships.
 

south

Well-Known Member
Hard to take an article seriously that says the DDGs are heavily armed, but the Hunters are underarmed. So all that's needed is 8 additional VLS? Ha!
Hobart has 48 vs (reported) Hunter’s 32. Which is 16 extra, or in real terms a 50% uplift. Considering the vessels will no doubt doctrinally retain the a certain number of cells for self defence, the percentage for ‘discretionary loading’ is actually larger.

Regardless, for all the jobs that the ships could do, I agree, both ships don’t have enough….

A question for the naval types -I’ve seen in here before where people defend the 32 cells with “it isn’t supposed to be an AWD, it’s a ASW frigate”. Why should Hunter not be equally adept (and armed) for both roles (to potentially include land strike), especially given we’re changing the radar and combat systems….
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Hobart has 48 vs (reported) Hunter’s 32. Which is 16 extra, or in real terms a 50% uplift. Considering the vessels will no doubt doctrinally retain the a certain number of cells for self defence, the percentage for ‘discretionary loading’ is actually larger.

Regardless, for all the jobs that the ships could do, I agree, both ships don’t have enough….

A question for the naval types -I’ve seen in here before where people defend the 32 cells with “it isn’t supposed to be an AWD, it’s a ASW frigate”. Why should it not be equally adept (and armed) for both roles (to potentially include land strike)
Too much common sense there.

It seems someone finally got the message that value for money and cheap aren't the same.

When you have a small to medium navy you are never going to be able to afford (or crew) a sufficient number of ships to be able to specialise, they will all need to be multi role to a degree.

The RAN is never going to have dozens of MFUs. Good value for money is quite often the biggest, best allround capability you can afford.
 
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