Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Reptilia]

The cost overruns etc in that article would be one reason why NZ would / should stay well away from Hunter Class frigates.

The Mogami Class FFM cost less than US$500 million to build per ship. Vital statistics for it and the RAN Anzac Class are:

	Mogami FFM Class​	RAN Anzac Class​
Length	130 meters (426 feet 6 inches) (Source)	118 meters (387 feet) overall
Beam	16 meters (52 ft 6 in) (Source)	14.8 meters (49 ft)
Draft	Unknown	4.35 meters (14.3 ft)
Standard displacement	3,900 tons	2,900 tons (Source)
Full load displacement	5,500 tons	3600 tons
Range	Unknown	6000 NM (11000 km) at 18 knots (33 km/h)
Speed	30+ knots (Source)	27 knots (50 km/h)
Compliment	90	177
VLS cells	16	8

Instead of having as a corvette it could be a light patrol frigate.

C90
L 90m
B 13.5m
D?
SD 2,300 tons
FLD?
R 6,000nm at 12 knts (assume 4-5,000 nm at 15 knts)
S 22-24 knts
C 60-80, 100 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

ALFA 3000
L 104.2m
B 14.4m
D 4.3m
SD 3,000 tons
FLD?
R 5,000nm at 15 knts
S 26-27 knts
C 80-100, 102 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

Chungnam
L 129m
B 14.8m
D?
SD?
FLD 4,300 tons
R 5,000nm at 15 knts
S 29-30 knts
C 120-140
VLS 16 cells

A120
L 120m
B 19m
D?
SD 4,000 tons
FLD?
R 6,000nm at 15 knts
S 24-26 knts
C 80-90, 130-160 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

A140
L 138.7m
B 20.4m
D 5.5m
SD 5,700 tons
FLD 7,700 tons
R 9,000nm at 15 knts
S 27-29 knts
C 100-120, 150-180 accomodation
VLS 32 cells

 

[Meriv90]

On the A140 it doesnt say 9000 at 15knts.

It says from 6500 to 9000 depending cruise speed from 12 to 16knts

SO for the sake of your comparison is something between 6500 and probably 7000, 9000 at 15 is an error of 30% quite significant.

 

[aussienscale]

We still need the OPVs they play an important role in Australia's security, we are not allowed to sink foreign fishing vessels with SSMs.

Correct, people still diregard this, they confuse the actual role and CONOPS of the OPV's and what they need to do, they are not war fighters, they fill the contabulary role to free up MFU's to concentrate and train on their actual intended role.

"If" we do go down the route of tier 2 ships, be it either Corvette or GP Frigates, I could potentially see OPV's possibly moving across to border force.
Manning and training pipelines are still going to be a major issue going forward, we also have to remember what we potentially have coming for Army, how many, how big, and crewed by who ? And let's not forget Submarines and Navy, and the nation, gearing up and working towards nuclear !

Step back, take a look to see more of the bigger picture ! Combined this is a hell of a lot for the RAN and Defence in the next 20 years !!

Cheers

 

[aussienscale]

It's all very well having 150 cells, but how will you fill them? The cost of each load out will be eye watering and something that the RAN most likely won't be able to afford to sustain. Next what about crew and crew size? Where are you going to get the crew from?

And just imagine the mission kill with all those eggs being broken in that sized basket !!

 

[Reptilia]

On the A140 it doesnt say 9000 at 15knts.

It says from 6500 to 9000 depending cruise speed from 12 to 16knts

SO for the sake of your comparison is something between 6500 and probably 7000, 9000 at 15 is an error of 30% quite significant.

Depends on which article you read, the iver huitfeld class says 9,300nm at 18knts, sea state 0.

From the designer

Odense Maritime Technology

Odense Maritime Technology Innovation. Expertise. Experience The IVER HUITFELDT CLASS Modular frigates for an uncertain future

nozebra.ipapercms.dk

 

[SiVisPacemParaBellum]

Why is nobody considering newly build MEKO-A200s? tkMS knows how to build abroad and is capable of delivering a highly capable GP Frigate for +/- 500 Mio. $.
It'd also unlock the Boxer CRV Export to Germany.

 

[Meriv90]

Depends on which article you read, the iver huitfeld class says 9,300nm at 18knts, sea state 0.

From the designer

Odense Maritime Technology

Odense Maritime Technology Innovation. Expertise. Experience The IVER HUITFELDT CLASS Modular frigates for an uncertain future

nozebra.ipapercms.dk

ADAPTABLE CONFIGURATION

From their own specific page?

 

[Reptilia]

Why is nobody considering newly build MEKO-A200s? tkMS knows how to build abroad and is capable of delivering a highly capable GP Frigate for +/- 500 Mio. $.
It'd also unlock the Boxer CRV Export to Germany.

The Egyptians are getting 4 for 2.5-2.7 billion U.S. it’s not as flexible as the A140. The Type 31 is around 350-400 million each u.s before being kitted out. U.K expected to get all 5 for 2 billion pounds, 2.5 billion u.s.

 

[Volkodav]

Stop using contractors for recruiting would be a nice step. I've heard the new company has been turning down applicants for not having their full license.

Having shiny new kit probably does more for recruiting than any contracted recruiter or ad campaign.

Old crappy stuff is a turn off, doesn't matter how much time and money is spent polishing it.

Worst of all is brown fields projects, i.e. upgrading old stuff is diabolically complex and wicked (the opposite of kind or easy). Time consuming, expensive, and no matter how well they are done, the result is still infectious to a new build using the same systems.

 

[Going Boeing]

The information that has been leaked indicates that the Corvette/Light Frigates will be additional to the planned 9 Hunter/DDG vessels which will put a lot of pressure on the budget and manpower. Thus, it’s unlikely that the Arafura build will be extended beyond the contracted 12 vessels.

Consequently, if the Evolved Capes, which were bought as an interim capability, were kept in service to work with the first 6 Arafuras in the constabulary role, the last 6 Arafuras could be built in MCM & Hydro configurations (possibly upgraded to the CV90 hull variant). This would mean that the funds planned for additional Arafuras beyond the initial 12 could be reallocated to the Corvette/Light Frigates that are proposed. If this becomes the chosen path, a decision is required very quickly.

Some comments on this forum indicate the number of Tier 2 vessels as 3-6 but, the SDR indicated that the number of the proposed Tier 2 should be built in sufficient quantities to fulfil all the GP frigate roles which would require 6 or more - this would be desirable but have significant problems with funding and manpower.

As far as getting the fleet balance right, the future fleet plans are showing good potential:

Constabulary - 6 Arafuras & 8 Evolved Capes
MCM & Hydrographic - 6 Arafura/CV90
Light Frigates - Arrowhead 120 or 140, or Alpha 3000
ASW Frigates - 6 Hunters
AW Destroyers - 3 Hobarts & 3 T26 hull based AWD’s
Submarines - 8 in various combinations of Collins, Virginia & AUKUS SSN’s over the next 40 years.
Amphibious & Replenishment - 2 LHD’s & 2 AOR’s with Choules to be replaced by 2-3 JSS

 

[devo99]

Having shiny new kit probably does more for recruiting than any contracted recruiter or ad campaign.

Old crappy stuff is a turn off, doesn't matter how much time and money is spent polishing it.

Worst of all is brown fields projects, i.e. upgrading old stuff is diabolically complex and wicked (the opposite of kind or easy). Time consuming, expensive, and no matter how well they are done, the result is still infectious to a new build using the same systems.

Having shiny stuff definitely helps with bringing in applicants but there's no telling how many have been put off by the current and previous recruiting contractors doing a terrible job with the application process. And the current idea as a whole of defence trying to compete with the private sector by corporatising itself and making it 'just like any other job'.
At some point they have to realise that the engineers and technicians don't join and stick around for the pay and they never have.
The draw has been working on systems you don't get to touch elsewhere and the unique lifestyle but the contractors have never figured that out.

 

[Flexson]

The Anzacs are old ships, designed for a different world, and are tired. At some stage we will have to let them go or they will not be reliable enough to perform the mission, and we will have situations where like Tobroken, where it was languishing off Sydney heads likely to be smashed up against rocks. Not only is a lack of real capability, its a hazard to crew, and costs more to operate for fewer hours at sea than if we had just replaced it. We can decommission some, to have spares to raid to keep the others afloat, but they aren't the ideal 2040 weapon naval platform.

Just fit the 20/25/30mm typhoon and be done with it for the OPV's. Why go to the cost and time of acquiring a new small gun, that an existing gun can do just as well. Instead of wasting the time and money selecting something like a 57mm, just fit the 30mm typhoon to the OPVs and the 76mm to the "corvettes" as that is too a gun the RAN has logistics, training and operation with. Is there anything to be gained acquiring anything else?

It was Kanimbla not Tobruk that almost went up on the rocks at North Head. Also, there is a vessel in the RAN that would still be considered a Toddler in human years and yet has spent a longer consecutive period Non-operational than Tobruk ever did in the last 9 years of her life. So while age is a contributor, a huge contributor, so is build quality.

I doubt we still have the 4 x 76mm's off the Adelaide's and any new version, even new OTO Melara's will be significantly different enough that they may as well be an entirely different gun.

 

[GregorZ]

C90
L 90m
B 13.5m
D?
SD 2,300 tons
FLD?
R 6,000nm at 12 knts (assume 4-5,000 nm at 15 knts)
S 22-24 knts
C 60-80, 100 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

ALFA 3000
L 104.2m
B 14.4m
D 4.3m
SD 3,000 tons
FLD?
R 5,000nm at 15 knts
S 26-27 knts
C 80-100, 102 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

Chungnam
L 129m
B 14.8m
D?
SD?
FLD 4,300 tons
R 5,000nm at 15 knts
S 29-30 knts
C 120-140
VLS 16 cells

A120
L 120m
B 19m
D?
SD 4,000 tons
FLD?
R 6,000nm at 15 knts
S 24-26 knts
C 80-90, 130-160 accomodation
VLS 16 cells

A140
L 138.7m
B 20.4m
D 5.5m
SD 5,700 tons
FLD 7,700 tons
R 9,000nm at 15 knts
S 27-29 knts
C 100-120, 150-180 accomodation
VLS 32 cells

Mogami class as designed can also perform the mine warfare roll as well, which would tie in very well with the RANs needs.

 

[Reptilia]

ADAPTABLE CONFIGURATION

From their own specific page?

They did not design the ship

The information that has been leaked indicates that the Corvette/Light Frigates will be additional to the planned 9 Hunter/DDG vessels which will put a lot of pressure on the budget and manpower. Thus, it’s unlikely that the Arafura build will be extended beyond the contracted 12 vessels.

Consequently, if the Evolved Capes, which were bought as an interim capability, were kept in service to work with the first 6 Arafuras in the constabulary role, the last 6 Arafuras could be built in MCM & Hydro configurations (possibly upgauged to the 90m variant). This would mean that the funds planned for additional Arafuras beyond the initial 12 could be reallocated to the Corvette/Light Frigates that are proposed. If this becomes the chosen path, a decision is required very quickly.

Some comments on this forum indicate the number of Tier 2 vessels as 3-6 but, the SDR indicated that the number of the proposed Tier 2 should be built in sufficient quantities to fulfil all the GP frigate roles which would require 6 or more - this would be desirable but have significant problems with funding and manpower.

As far as getting the fleet balance right, the future fleet plans are showing good potential:

Constabulary - 6 Arafuras & 8 Evolved Capes
Light Frigates - Arrowhead 120 or 140, or Alpha 3000
ASW Frigates - 6 Hunters
AW Destroyers - 3 Hobarts & 3 T26 hull based AWD’s
Submarines - 8 in various combinations of Collins, Virginia & AUKUS SSN’s ovethe next 40 years.
Amphibious & Replenishment - 2 LHD’s & 2 AOR’s with Choules to be replaced by 2-3 JSS

Im thinking
C - 12 OPV/MCM, Capes possible to ABF
LF or CV - many options, 120m or less in length, 5,000 ton or less for northern base maintenance Unless upgrades are made.
ASWF - 5-6 Hunters
AAWD - 3 Hobarts to 5-6 Hunter ddg or 5-6 type 83
S - 6 Collins to 3-5 Virginia to 5-8 Aukus
AnR - 2 LHD, 3 JSS, don’t think supply class will survive its intended lifespan.

 

[Reptilia]

Mogami class as designed can also perform the mine warfare roll as well, which would tie in very well with the RANs needs.

The redesigned batch 2 is very nice, many improvements and alot bigger, 1,000 tons more and 142m long. Some saying 24 VLS.
Anyone wanna guess the potential range of Mogami batch 1?

 

[swerve]

There is an illuminating passage in that AFR article:

“Sources said the review has recommended the navy acquire a smaller “tier 2″ corvette or light frigate-style warship, with the choice between Spanish shipbuilder Navantia and British shipbuilder Babcock. These warships would be able to carry missiles and have a longer range than the navy’s offshore patrol vessels currently under construction.”

Sounds like at least an Alfa 3000, and perhaps a Type 31 are the preferred options rather than an upgunned OPV.

Babcock also came up with the Arrowhead 120. The problem with that, of course, is that there won't be a detailed design yet. I think it was replaced by Arrowhead 140 as Babcock's candidate for the Type 31 requirement well before that stage.

 

[swerve]

Sounds like RN type mix, with Type 31 (corvette armament but Aust level range), Type 26, and perhaps an upgunned Hunter/new design. No mention of ship numbers though, so hope it means a jump back to 15-18 ships.

Corvettes have 32 Mk 41 VLS?

 

[devo99]

The redesigned batch 2 is very nice, many improvements and alot bigger, 1,000 tons more and 142m long. Some saying 24 VLS.
Anyone wanna guess the potential range of Mogami batch 1?

Given the higher tonnage you would assume at a glance that the batch 1s would have at least similar range to the Anzacs.
That said we haven't really gotten a full idea of what the CONOPs is for the Mogamis beyond that of the ships they're replacing, and that would be a big hint into what they were designed for, e.g long range escort of auxiliaries and shipping, local ASW patrols, general task force picket duties etc.

 

[devo99]

Corvettes have 32 Mk 41 VLS?

I think he was meaning that we would fit them with "corvette armament", which is entirely doable since the midships superstructure is designed for mixing and matching missiles in.

 

[hauritz]

Just thinking that the MCM and Survey vessels will soon need to be replaced. I know when the idea of an Offshore Combatant Vessel was put forward the idea was that they would not only replace the patrol fleet, but also the MCM and Survey vessels as well. This seems to have carried over with talk of the MCM and Survey vessels being replaced with Arafuras, but this idea seems to ignore is that both the MCM and Survey roles were considered combat roles. It was envisioned that MCMs and Survey vessels would operate along side other naval assets such as our amphibious fleet and perhaps even precede the main fleet into areas of operations.

Semaphore: Australian Offshore Combatant Vessels | Royal Australian Navy

Royal Australian Navy

www.navy.gov.au

To me this would seem to suggest that the Arafura is simply not suited as a replacement of these vessels. On the otherhand they very much sound like the sort of roles that could be handled by a corvette/light frigate sized vessel.

I haven't heard anything about these projects since the Morrison government promised to build these ships if re-elected. As far as I know this project is currently in linbo.