PLAAF v. IAF

[SABRE]

Kapton - not Krypton

He said kypton.

• Kapton can kill planes when it reaches a certain stage (esp if its wired into a fuel tank)

for sure it does....it causes short circuits which may also cause a fire. But according to some ppl the movement of the aircraft also has some thing to do with. Have no further knowledge on that. If u do gf than plz inlighten me/us.

• Krypton kills superman.

That is arguable. It has so far failed to kill Superman, in fact the man of steel is making his return. I suspect its ability to kill superman, it just delays superman's abilities for the time period he is near it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

for sure it does....it causes short circuits which may also cause a fire. But according to some ppl the movement of the aircraft also has some thing to do with. Have no further knowledge on that. If u do gf than plz inlighten me/us.

As kapton degrades it becomes brittle. if its the primary insulator then it can assist in a short circuit - especially at a cable junction where there may be movement - and especially if its in a fuel tank as part of a sensor system

thats why Kapton is no longer Milspec rated and wht its also banned from being installed in new construction.

There was a documentary shot a few years back called "Fire in the Sky". I used to play it for trainees when I was contracted to a mil cable and connector supplier.

I've seen the harnesses out of a Su-24, Mig21, Mig23, Mig27 and an Il-38 - and I can tell you that there is no way you'd get me in any of those planes if they had original harnessing.

 

[powerslavenegi]

Defence Budget

Chinese spend nearly 80 Billion USD on defence as opposed to India's 20 Billion USD,it's a huge difference that reflects clearly on each one's military arsenal.Having said that both IAF and PLAAF have to address the problem of ageing f-7 & Mig-21 fleet ,that consitute bulk of these airforces.PLAAF has been successful in finding a replacement in form of JF-17 ,while IAF is still keen on flying upgraded versions of Mig-21 Bisons(Thanks to Non-flying LCA courtsey MOD:mad3 ).Another area which IAF needs to address is the air defence systems like SAM's ,chinese are in possesion of numerous batteries of S-300PMU and are allegdly developing another one similar in capabilities to Patriot PAC-3.In the present scenario PLAAF seems to be more organised and formidable than the IAF.

 

[suryaaa]

.Having said that both IAF and PLAAF have to address the problem of ageing f-7 & Mig-21 fleet ,that consitute bulk of these airforces.PLAAF has been successful in finding a replacement in form of JF-17 ,while IAF is still keen on flying upgraded versions of Mig-21 Bisons(Thanks to Non-flying LCA courtsey MOD:mad3 )..

power lca is curently undergoing ioc it will be one of our main weapons which too in large number,only problem now lca is facing is the kaveri engine which will be complete in near future.

as far as fc-1 china too dont have them now in its arsenal ,like lca it also is undergoing ioc.and as far as i know fc-1 uses russian engine so it will join plaaf before lca joins the iaf.

 

[tphuang]

I believe they are limited to only refueling J-8's and not very capable.

The last I heard they were ordered. Have they been delievered?

probably not for another 2 years.

Prove it!

geez, the last batch of su-27ubk was equipped with N-001VE and the J-11s have the N-001VE upgrade. That's why they are R-77 capable
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm
huitong got his news from JDW I think. Rats, I'm in China currently and the links for this article on this is getting blocked. You can do your own search on "j-11 n-001ve".

Not from what I know.

http://www.china-military.org/units/Regnr.htm
Rick Kramer's site. Has all the regiments in pla listed, although not totally up to date. You can count up how many J-8F/H regiments there are. Each regiment is around 24 fighters. Only 4 regiments are needed to get 100 J-8s are PL-12 compatible, for example:
we have 3rd regiment with J-8F
the 4th regiment with J-8 upgraded to J-8F

too many divisions to go through and not complete information on all of them, but the point is that J-8F is definitely all PL-12 compatible and H is also PL-12 compatible. Eventually, the goal of plaaf is to upgrade all of the upgradeable J-8B/D to J-8F or H standard. I'm not exactly sure how far along they are on this, you can probably get a better guestimate using CDF's J-8 thread.

Which is why J-7 are still being produced to this day for the PLAAF. Whats the latest J-7G? and the J-10 doesn't cost 2-3 times more than FC-1. They according to Chinese forumers have only a price difference of 5-10 million.

no, FC-1 costs less than 10 million. J-10 costs more than 20 million.
J-7 line is getting closed down. plaaf is not making any new orders, all production is for existing orders. Thankfully, CAC is finally done with J-7s.

 

[dabrownguy]

My reply was towards who was the best strongest regional airforce not who would win in a regional conflict. Dont try confuse the subject

You confused me with comparing the number of BVR fighters.

25km is for the 9B-1103M while the standard seeker is the 9B-1348 which is 15km.

25km is for the 9B-1103M while the standard seeker is the 9B-1348 which is 15km.

Yet you cannot tell me how the R-77 enhances the combat capability?. Does that capability defeat a enemy with a 2:1 ratio in arms?. Or which conflict the R-77 has proved itself in.

And please tell me which conflict has seen the use of BVR in mass numbers?. Because the US has prohitbited BVR combat before you had made visual contact with the enemy so that rules out most american conflicts. There is only one good example of the Dutch F-16 at around 50km using a older generation of the Aim-120. So to generalize on 50km something for BVR combat is not well informed.

Most Air to air combat utilizes NEZ and with some versions of the R-27 having MUCH longer ranges than the R-77 that india have i do not see what advantage they hold in battle. the R-27AE has a maximum range of 130KM with a ACTIVE seeker as well. As such matchs the R-77 in the fire and forget category. Having a range 50km longer is a big advantage, well i would say "makes up for it"

So see wrong. IAF does have the newest varients of R-27's according to BR.

SIPRI (Stockholm International Peace Research Institute) reported that 300 R-27R1/T1 [FONT=Verdana, Arial]air-to-air [/FONT]missiles were ordered by the Indian Air Force in 1995 and all 300 missiles were delivered in the same year. SIPRI reported that 1140 R-27E missiles were ordered in 1996 and 250 were delivered by 2001. SIPRI also reported that 1140 R-27R1/T1 missiles were ordered from Ukraine in 1996 and 304 were delivered by 2001. As per the annual UN conventional arms register, the Indian Government reported it had purchased 40 R-27ER1 and 36 R-27ET1 missiles in 1999 and [FONT=Verdana, Arial]20 R-27ER1 and 20 R-27ET1 missiles in 2000.[/FONT]

Its interesting to note that the IAF with all its options open choice to intergrate the R-77 with the MiGs and Mirages. The MESH fins also give it greater agility. Range is a factor but 130 km isn't a big leap over 100. These are the head on. Even though the R-77 is not combat proven it has a much better seeker than the earlier R-27's which saw poor results in Africa by ex Russian pilots. So thats about it. The R-27 won't see more sales. The R-27 even though with a greater range and infared seeker has failed to impress me.:wah

Am i somehow meant to be impressed?

You do realise that ALL of the PLA flanker series caries ECM? The Gardeniya pod in particular for the Su-27K and possibliy a newer version for the Su-30MKK

And maybe give a name for the ECm pod instead of calling it a "tempest jammer" ??

We can never compare ECM, SPJ directly. Not enough information on then net. We can speculate. Which is what you do best right?
The IAF with all its options choice to use Israeli electronic jammers rather than Russian. Even Indian over Russian. That should speak for its self.
The name of the jammer that can be carried externally is Tempest. Tempest is use internally on Su-30MKI. Tempest is Indian hence the fancy name instead of a number.

geez, the last batch of su-27ubk was equipped with N-001VE and the J-11s have the N-001VE upgrade. That's why they are R-77 capable
http://mil.jschina.com.cn/huitong/J-10_J-11_FC-1.htm
huitong got his news from JDW I think. Rats, I'm in China currently and the links for this article on this is getting blocked. You can do your own search on "j-11 n-001ve".

hmmmmmmm

http://www.china-military.org/units/Regnr.htm
Rick Kramer's site. Has all the regiments in pla listed, although not totally up to date. You can count up how many J-8F/H regiments there are. Each regiment is around 24 fighters. Only 4 regiments are needed to get 100 J-8s are PL-12 compatible, for example:
we have 3rd regiment with J-8F
the 4th regiment with J-8 upgraded to J-8F

too many divisions to go through and not complete information on all of them, but the point is that J-8F is definitely all PL-12 compatible and H is also PL-12 compatible. Eventually, the goal of plaaf is to upgrade all of the upgradeable J-8B/D to J-8F or H standard. I'm not exactly sure how far along they are on this, you can probably get a better guestimate using CDF's J-8 thread.

According to sinodefence they still use semi active Alamos.

no, FC-1 costs less than 10 million. J-10 costs more than 20 million.
J-7 line is getting closed down. plaaf is not making any new orders, all production is for existing orders. Thankfully, CAC is finally done with J-7s.

No common sence? jeez. Where do you get your sources?:lam
This is just as pathetic as the YJ-803 300 km supersonic anti ship missile on 052C!

 

[norinco89]

FC-1 project price went up due to the fact that Pakistan ups its requirements so it is estimated to be around 15 mil while the J-10 is around 25-30 mil. This price of course will increase when you include missiles and etc. That is still amazing for the quality of the plane. Cant beat chinese cut rate prices! lol


note the 52c does not use a 803 anti ship missile.

I seen some pics of LCA flying around. Are those prototypes equiped with American GE engines?

 

[chinawhite]

So see wrong. IAF does have the newest varients of R-27's according to BR.

Yet no one is talking about india having the newest R-27s. Head up, eyes open

Its interesting to note that the IAF with all its options open choice to intergrate the R-77 with the MiGs and Mirages.

The reason that comes to my mind is that no one is willing to sell them the Aim-120 missile which is a american missile, or any missle connected with a american firm during the sanctions period on india. The Mig-21s and Mig-29s date to the cold war when india did not have the funds to buy other planes and the times when india was aligned to soviet union.

For the bison upgrade i would doubt any other missile would have been mounted on a russian plane and same with the Mig-29

And Mirage with the R-77?. You must have a source for this because to me this is highly unbelievable

The MESH fins also give it greater agility.

You mean maneuverability?. And its not mesh fins it called potato masher

Range is a factor but 130 km isn't a big leap over 100. These are the head on.

? Your kidding me right?. Thats the difference between visual combat and BVR so that would be a big leap. And most stated figures is 80km for a fighter target using the R-77 and 130km for the R-27AE for a fighter target. 100km range for the R-77 is a head on target approach at 20 000 meters altitude fired at a non-manuvering large aircraft. eg transports AWACS

Even though the R-77 is not combat proven it has a much better seeker than the earlier R-27's which saw poor results in Africa by ex Russian pilots.

No, During the Ethiopian, Eritrean war they used ex-surplus russian R-27R which is a semi-active missile and the R-27T which is a IR missle. The pilots weren't the problem it was the reliabilty of the missiles which were damaged during the shipment over. The missiles also killed a couple of Mig-29s using the Su-27 missiles.

We can never compare ECM, SPJ directly. Which is what you do best right?

You were the one doing the comparison, But the difference between informed specualtion and speculation is quite different.

Hence the comment
"""""'Which is seems a lot better than their PLAAF counterparts."""""""""""

Is called speculation which was not informed but rather taking a blind stab in the dark. If you did not know what the PLAAF had while say that the indian airforce posessed better ones, But nows its

""""We can never compare""""

Why is that?

The IAF with all its options choice to use Israeli electronic jammers rather than Russian. Even Indian over Russian.

Well like you said "We can never compare". But one thing comes to mind si the fact that india is now trying to make things by itself even though there are better options out there. Picking one item does not mean its the better one. Every purchase has a reason

 

[chinawhite]

This is just as pathetic as the YJ-803 300 km supersonic anti ship missile on 052C!

The 52C has the YJ-62 not the YJ-803. And its stated export range is 280km in a lo-lo-lo profile to fit in with the MTCR. The actual PLAn military range should be longer.

 

[dabrownguy]

The reason that comes to my mind is that no one is willing to sell them the Aim-120 missile which is a american missile, or any missle connected with a american firm during the sanctions period on india. The Mig-21s and Mig-29s date to the cold war when india did not have the funds to buy other planes and the times when india was aligned to soviet union.

For the bison upgrade i would doubt any other missile would have been mounted on a russian plane and same with the Mig-29

And Mirage with the R-77?. You must have a source for this because to me this is highly unbelievable

I was trying to say that IAF choice it over the newest R-27. What does that tell you? Obviously R-77 beat out the competition. Can't just blame the promoting.

? Your kidding me right?. Thats the difference between visual combat and BVR so that would be a big leap. And most stated figures is 80km for a fighter target using the R-77 and 130km for the R-27AE for a fighter target. 100km range for the R-77 is a head on target approach at 20 000 meters altitude fired at a non-manuvering large aircraft. eg transports AWACS

:haha30 KM more.

The pilots weren't the problem it was the reliabilty of the missiles which were damaged during the shipment over. The missiles also killed a couple of Mig-29s using the Su-27 missiles.

They still didn't show they're stuff! What are you trying to say?

Is called speculation which was not informed but rather taking a blind stab in the dark. If you did not know what the PLAAF had while say that the indian airforce posessed better ones, But nows its

On the technical side but when can assume the other is better.
The IAF did have choice between Russian or Israeli/Indian jammers.

Picking one item does not mean its the better one. Every purchase has a reason

Not always. But does imply something.:hitwall

The 52C has the YJ-62 not the YJ-803. And its stated export range is 280km in a lo-lo-lo profile to fit in with the MTCR. The actual PLAn military range should be longer.

And yet some one else claims something else.

 

[nabeel_ahmad85]

while comparing the two respective airforces we have to know the capabilities they got.............what i think is that PLAAF is much better then IAF because of the modren planes they are inductuing and building like (J-11, J-10, SU-27, SU-30MKK, JF-17).
IAF also inducting new planes but they are on lesser scale...........thats why i think that PLAAF has advantage over IAF.

 

[tphuang]

hmmmmmmm

According to sinodefence they still use semi active Alamos.

No common sence? jeez. Where do you get your sources?:lam
This is just as pathetic as the YJ-803 300 km supersonic anti ship missile on 052C!

sinodefence is not always up to date. but yeah, search for that JDW article. I'm not

Where do I get my sources that JF-17 costs 10 million each for China? It was mentionned as such in an interview with JL-15 developer. I have that interview translated on SDF. Of course, the export versions would be more expensive, but I think that's a given. Let's put it this way, in one of the article stating that Pakistan is looking to purchase Chinese planes. The per unit cost of J-10 worked out to be around 37.5 million and JF-17 was much less. You can look it up in the PAF thread. It was discussed a lot last month.

YJ-803 does not exist, it's YJ-83 and 052C is not equipped with it. You can know that by just looking at the cannisters on 052C. The YJ-83 uses square cannisters, whereas 052C contains circular cannisters. And yes, it does make sense that the domestic YJ-62 has over 300 km, since 280 KM is pretty much the max range for Ashm. This is a nice article on Chinese AShM.
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pubID.83/pub_detail.asp

 

[norinco89]

Fc-1s are going to be more expensive expecially the pakistani version. It is going to be equiped with euro electronics and avionics and etc.
It could have been more expensive if they used composites but pakistan turned it down to reduce cost.
It is a good replacement for mig 21 but i still think its a bit heavy and the engine is a bit under powered.

sinodefence didnt update its j-11, su-27 and a bunch of other aircrafts. If you check the last updated date on the bottom of those pages, it going to be a date before PLAAF began upgrading their planes.



How do air forces upgrade their planes to use more advanced missiles?

Is it a simple thing like a software upgrade or is it like a new radar, pod , or something?

 

[suryaaa]

while comparing the two respective airforces we have to know the capabilities they got.............what i think is that PLAAF is much better then IAF because of the modren planes they are inductuing and building like (J-11, J-10, SU-27, SU-30MKK, JF-17).
IAF also inducting new planes but they are on lesser scale...........thats why i think that PLAAF has advantage over IAF.

the fighters you mentioned [like j-11 to su-30-mkk ] are already with india which too in high std than mkk.

about j-10 yes its better for a indigenous pro,for this we now have mirrages upgraded to 2000-5 std ,and the mrca deal.

about jf17 ,we have lca which may be supiror to fc-1,but on that ascept we have to wait and see.

plaaf is superior to iaf not on the tech they posses ,instead its quantity that
makes the difference .

can anyone give an aproximate no of a/c's plaaf posses.

 

[norinco89]

fc-1 and the lca are not on the same level. Its a sin just to try to compare them. The LCA(when up and running) will be far better than the fc-1. It has alot better avionics, agility and speed. there is at least a 15-25 mil cost disparity between them two. one is a replacement for mig 21 while lca is the future 4th or 4.5 generation light weight fighter.

How many mki does india have currently?

 

[suryaaa]

india bought 50 mki undear adeal signed with sukhoi.

and in other deal they are now manufacturing 140 mkis ,which like said will be produced in block variants ,ie, their is still room for improvement.

i think we may have 60 + mki and su-30.

 

[norinco89]

The chinese have a variety of survalence planes, ew and so does india.

I recently read a article on sinodefence.com with pictures of a new aew. They say it is the third type the PLAAF fielded in a few years. Whats the difference between them.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8aew.asp

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/kj2000.asp

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/specialaircraft/y8balancebeam.asp

 

[crobato]

The ROCAF alone has 335 platforms capable of firing an ARH missile. The ROKAF has about 155 to 190 platforms capable of firing an ARH missile.

I need to adjust the number of operational fighters per PLAAF regiment from 24 to 32. It should be around 24 to 28 single seaters, plus 4 double seaters. The number of planes depend on type. Q-5 probably up to 40 including JJ-6s. J-7s between 30 to 40 with JJ-7s. J-11s up to 32. Su-30MKKs up to 19 for PLAAF, 24 for PLANAF. JH-7 is 20 to 24.

J-8II formation is probably 24 to 28 J-8IIs with 4 JJ-6s. So far one regiment in the 1st Division has converted to J-8F, two regiments in the 21st Division has converted to J-8H. One J-8II regiment in the 29th Division is heaving its planes upgraded to J-8F through the conversion of older planes instead of brand new planes. J-8II regiments in the 26th Division (2 of them) and one in the 12th Division might also be upgraded.

There are currently 5 regiments of Su-30MKK.

There are currently 4 regiments of JH-7 and JH-7A. I mention them because these strike bombers are also ARH capable.

As for Su-27/J-11 regiments, the latest count now has 8 regiments.

As for J-10 regiments there are currently about 3, with two in the process of conversion (one in the 2nd Division and one in the 3rd Division). That will about 5 this year.

 

[merocaine]

Does anyone know what kind of intel the chinese could have gleaned from that american spy plane they forced down a couple of years ago, was it merely a propganda coup or would they have been able to learn much.

 

[blackjar]

I don't think its much of a competition. The PLAAF will win hands down in a one on one situation with the IAF.

They have a greater number of aircraft that would fall in the average grade than the IAF which has its mix of the dated Migs and few but more current SU-30 / Mirage 2Ks.

It will be a war of attrition that will reduce the IAF to a non-entity.

If one factors only an air war - then India's air defence assets against China are insufficient to hold a large scale onslaught of say between 500-700 aircraft that the PLAAF will be able to deploy against the IAF's 300-450. [Other aircraft will remain deployed in defensive structures against other threats]. China is better positioned wrt to air bases etc to attack India as part of a concerted war effort but striking Indian air bases with just aircraft would be a waste of time. Same goes for IAF vs PLAAF forward bases.