PLAAF v. IAF

aaaditya

New Member
frankly crobato i cannot understand the logic of having so many different awacs systems.

i have some doubts here:

1)are they all so radically different from one another that so many are required?

2)are they in actual service or are in the prototype and the trial and testing stage?

3)how many awacs does china plan to acquire and of which type?

also i would be gratefull if you could provide any specifications regarding these projects.
 

aaaditya

New Member
india plans to have two awacs system the phalcon which will be the high end(with 3-6 systems).

and the indigenous awacs project,this system will be comparable to the swedish erieye system but would be mounted on the brazilian embraer erj-145 aircraft ,it would be a relatively low cost platform and would be acquired in larger numbers than the phalcon,considering the amount of close cooperation between india and brazil ,india may also carefully study the brazilian sivam concept and may incorporate a similiar system into the internal surveillance grid.

currently bids for the joint development of the radar have been invited from elta of israel,ericsson of sweden ,raytheon of usa and the european companies.
 

wp2000

Member
frankly crobato i cannot understand the logic of having so many different awacs systems.

i have some doubts here:

1)are they all so radically different from one another that so many are required?

2)are they in actual service or are in the prototype and the trial and testing stage?

3)how many awacs does china plan to acquire and of which type?

also i would be gratefull if you could provide any specifications regarding these projects.
My 2 cents,

1) Yes, all of them are quite different to each other for different roles. The only exception is the one that went to Pakistan for demo: the Y8 dish version, which Crobato called it KJ-X. It's a competing project against the KJ200 (the Erieye type) for the low end AWACS, the high end is KJ2000.

Also, there is another carrier borne AEW project as well, not too much news about it though.

Now, all these aircraft have different roles, like the much hyped word "Netcentic" means, these are all different nodes in the big air defense network. Just several AWACS aircrafts are not enough. Although usually for small countries you don't need all these sorts of planes, if you really want to build a complete multi-layer network, just have a look at USAF. PLAAF is learning from USAF, USAF got all these different types of planes long time ago.

2)Some of them are in service, some of them nearing the final certification stage. The carrier based one is still long way to go.

3)No idea on how many of these planes China wants to acquire, nobody knows. My opinion is that they need 8-12 KJ2000 + 24-36 KJ200 +6 sets of all the Y8 "special planes"

Sinodefence has a pretty detailed and cautious introduction about these planes.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
for the surveillence types - I think you can figure out their use just by their name, right?

As for AWACS, KJ-2000 is strictly for the air force. They have a regiment set up for this, so I'm guessing you are looking at expansion to 24 for the time being.

KJ-200 - this is strictly for the navy, (Y-8MPA or Y-8J is used in a similar way, it came earlier as a stop gap measure imo). I would say you are looking at a regiment again.

KJ-X - this is strictly for export imo

Y-7 AEW - carrier based AEW. a necessary number of carrier operation

ka-31 - 15, I'm guessing they want to put some ka-31 on some DDGs. I can't imagine buying 15 of these just for Varyag.
 

crobato

New Member
frankly crobato i cannot understand the logic of having so many different awacs systems.

i have some doubts here:

1)are they all so radically different from one another that so many are required?

2)are they in actual service or are in the prototype and the trial and testing stage?

3)how many awacs does china plan to acquire and of which type?

also i would be gratefull if you could provide any specifications regarding these projects.
The KJ-2000 is mainly for the PLAAF, but the PLAAF does coordinate with the PLAN, and the PLA actually has a very sophisticated C31/C41 system for joint operations. The real difference between the PLA's C31/C41 vs. Western systems lies in policy, the PLA doesn't allow that much information to reach the bottom level while Western policies are much more generous when it comes to sharing information.

It's hard to say whether they are testing and in operational status. I would say both, because a lot of testing, experimentation, debugging and refining are still done even when something is operational. These planes are often reported in exercises.

The KJ-200 appears for both the PLAAF and PLANAF, and concieved to fill in the gaps of the KJ-2000 coverage. As a lower cost alternative, it is used to bring up the numbers.

Both uses electronic scanning array and their specs are likely patterned after the Phalcon and Erieye respectively.

The thing I call KJ-X, as in X for Unknown Number, may be intended both as an export product and a backup to the KJ-200.

The other Y-8 aircraft are highly specialized to do certain tasks.

The Y-8X is a follow on to the Y-8 MPA version.

The Y-8 Surveillance plane may be used to track both air, sea and land objects, so it may also be used to support the PLA ground army. I nickname this as Y-8 JSTARS.

There are both Y-8 and Tu-154 ELINT planes.

A Y-8 for Electronic Warfare.

A Y-8 for air borne command center.

To sum it up, MPA, JSTARS, ECM, ELINT and C31.
 

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys great news ,india would be acquiring 80 mi-17-4 helicopters from russia ,taking the total number of mi-17 helicopters to about 280,these mi-17-4 helicopters have a formidable attack capability and are capable of carrying upto 16 ataka anti tank missiles ,rockets and cannon.

in the meantime boeing of usa has offered india its chinook heavy lift helicopter to india,though i dont see much prospets for the chinook with the indian air force except as a replacement for the indian air force mi-26 halo heavy lift helicopters of which india has about 26.

this acquisition of the mi-17-4 is a stopgap measure till india develops a 10-12 ton helicopter(in a joint venture with eurocopter ,most probably based on the cougar design),there are also unconfirmed rumours about a 60 ton helicopter projet,overall i shall be eagerly awaiting the hal stand at the upcoming aero-india 2007.



http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17707
 

aaaditya

New Member
here guys check out this link and news article about the indian acquisition of the mi-17-4 ,this deal is expected to be worth around 600 milion dollars (seems pretty expensive ) depending on the avionics and the configuration.it also mentions about the indian army's light scout helicopter acquisition programme,about 60 helicopters (most probably bell 407 shen)will be purchased outright with the rest(137 ) to be licence built india india,the bell 407-shen also has anti-tank capability and can also be effective for counter insurgency roles,while the mi-17-4 will primarily be used for disaster management roles.

http://www.teluguportal.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=17707

New Delhi, Oct 15 (IANS) The Indian airforce (IAF) has decided to buy 80 medium lift multi-role Mi-17 1V helicopters outright from russia, making it perhaps the first of the five helicopter deals pending with the three services to be cleared.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal (ACM) S.P. Tyagi told "india Strategic" newsmagazine that he expected the procedural formalities to be over within a few months and the deliveries to commence in 2007 and be over within a year.

"The Russians can be very fast in manufacturing equipment and I expect them to supply the entire lot by 2008," Tyagi is quoted as saying in the October issue of the newsmagazine.

There was competition but the twin-engine Mi-17 1V met all the Air Staff Requirements (ASRs) - the parameters set by the air force - and has been its work horse for about 15 years now, not only in the Himalayas but also on UN missions. It was appropriate accordingly for the IAF to place what Tyagi called "a follow-on order".

The Indian Armed Forces have been considering acquisition of about 350 helicopters, the biggest of them being the order for 197 light multi-role helicopters for the army, the prime contenders for which are Bell Helicopter and Augusta Westland.

Sixty of them would be bought outright and the remaining 137 would be manufactured by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) under a technology transfer agreement.

The army is reported to be finalising its choice and a decision is expected to be announced around the end of this year.

The Indian Navy also has a tender out for 16 Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) helicopters as replacement for the old Sea Kings that are being phased out, while it is reported to have finalised its choice for an additional six logistics/troop carrier helicopters that will be on board the Trenton, the amphibious equipment and personnel carrier the navy is acquiring from the US next year.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash told "India Strategic" recently that the navy actually required around 40 or 50 helicopters and that there could be an order for more later as and when the Naval Staff Requirements (NSRs) were defined.

The IAF last week floated another tender for 12 helicopters for the VVIP role that would be equipped with advanced communication, anti-missile and other equipment.

Tyagi did not mention the costs of the Mi-17 1V helicopters but according to market sources, these could be around Rs.30 billion ($662 million) depending on the configurations and the onboard equipment like avionics.

Mi-17 is a derivative of the good old Mi-8 that even VVIPs have safely used from the days of late prime minister Indira Gandhi. Mi-17 1V is an upgrade to the original Mi-17 and there have been some other modifications too in the recent years.

Of course, the requirements for VVIP helicopters have tremendously changed over the last 15 years due with the rise of the terrorist threat.

IAF has both Mi-17 and Mi-17 1V in its inventory. The new Mi-17 IVs will be a replacement for the old Mi-8s that the IAF is gradually phasing out.

Both the Mi-8s and Mi-17s have played an important role in sustaining supplies to the troops in high altitude areas like Siachen and elsewhere in the Himalayas as well as during the natural disasters within India and outside, particularly during the 2004 tsunami in the neighbouring countries.

With a service ceiling of six km, or about 20,000 feet, the Mi-17 1V has functioned well in hot, high and humid conditions. It can transport troops and cargo, undertake fire-fighting, medical evacuation and search and rescue missions, and can also be quickly armed for combat and special operations.

According to published reports, IAF has about 350 helicopters for various missions, but due to its growing strategic role and peacetime requirements within and outside India, it would need many more machines in the coming years.

At present, IAF has also deployed 20 of its helicopters on UN duty.

Tyagi said the air force expected the government to announce tenders also for the 126 multi-role combat aircraft very soon.

Meanwhile, a top Boeing official said that his company was offering to sell the upgraded Chinook twin-rotor Ch 47F heavy lift helicopters to India.

He pointed out however that while no requirement had yet been projected by any of the three Indian services, the US government had cleared the sale of this helicopter to India for potential requirements.

Chinook was born during the Vietnam war days and has played a highly successful role both in combat and peacetime operations.
 

kams

New Member
i dont know if this article has been posted before,but it provides a detailed and comprehensive explanation about the indo-us cope india excercises.

however the interesting part of this article is that it mentions that indian airforce mirages were equipped with mica missiles.

here check out this link :

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/exercise-cope-india-article02.html
Aaaditya, don't you think this should be in IAF thread rather than PLAAF v IAF?
 

zoolander

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #172
Is the LCA approved for productions yet. I havent seen any articles about it for a while. Someone update me on that.

Whats up with the WS-10a engine. I heard it is less powerful than the current russian engine. I heard tat chinese engine is lighter though. Which one is better. Someone also update me on that too.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Is the LCA approved for productions yet. I havent seen any articles about it for a while. Someone update me on that.

Whats up with the WS-10a engine. I heard it is less powerful than the current russian engine. I heard tat chinese engine is lighter though. Which one is better. Someone also update me on that too.
according to the ada website lca has undergone its 568 test flight on november 3rd .the weapons integration is currently going on and the first batch of 20 pre production lca's for initial operational clearance are expected to be produced in 2008 ,the airforce has placed an initial order for 20 lca's plus an option of 20 more for initial operational clearance ,these aircrafts are to be powered by the higher thrust ge-f414-in20 engines .
 

crobato

New Member
Is the LCA approved for productions yet. I havent seen any articles about it for a while. Someone update me on that.

Whats up with the WS-10a engine. I heard it is less powerful than the current russian engine. I heard tat chinese engine is lighter though. Which one is better. Someone also update me on that too.
You heard wrong. Its the opposite. It has more power, 13,200kg vs 12,500kg, but slightly heavier (1700kg plus vs. 1500-1600kg).
 
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