PLAAF v. IAF

aaaditya

New Member
hey guys here is an interesting and tragic news article,seems a chinese spy plane crashed killing all the crew(tragic),this spy plane is claimed to be based on a russian design(interesting) ,can anyone provde more details on this aircraft .

about 10 years back an indian spy plane also crashed (coincidence),killing all on board and setting back the project by a decade.
 

aaaditya

New Member
aaaditya said:
hey guys here is an interesting and tragic news article,seems a chinese spy plane crashed killing all the crew(tragic),this spy plane is claimed to be based on a russian design(interesting) ,can anyone provde more details on this aircraft .

about 10 years back an indian spy plane also crashed (coincidence),killing all on board and setting back the project by a decade.
well guys here is the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1644155/posts


The Crashed Plane Was a Brand-new AWACS Plane China Developed

A Chinese air force plane, which recently crashed in Anhui Province, killing all crews, turned out to be 'Gongjing-2000,' a brand-new AWACS plane China recently developed.
According to June 6th report of Hong Kong's Dai-gong-bao, the crashed plane is 'Gongjing-2000,' which China developed using a Russian AWACS plane as its model, and the accident would be recorded as the worst disaster for Chinese air force.
China produced four Gongjing-2000 AWACS planes, and assigned them to airforce unit under Nanjing Military District early this year. They were reportedly deployed at Wushi Air base in Jiang-su Province.
The plane, with 40 crews, crashed on 4pm, June 3rd, at Guang-de County, Anhui Province, killing all crews, but Chinese authorities only reported that a military transport plane had crashed.
On June 5th, in an unusual move, President Hu Jintao expressed deep condolence to victims, and gave an instruction to thoroughly investigate the cause of the crash.
Chinese media speculate that bad weather was the cause.
The crash would bring serious setback to Chinese development of AWACS.
China set out for developing its AWACS plane, in a joint venture with Russia and Israel since '97. When American pressure killed this project, China has been pursuing the development on its own, which was dispersed over 50 research institutes since late 2000.
According the analysis of military experts, it was modeled after the Illushin-76 transport plane of Russia, and its radar is not spiral(?) type U.S. or Russian use, but fixed attachment type, which put China one step further than U.S. and Russia.
 

Big-E

Banned Member
aaaditya said:
According the analysis of military experts, it was modeled after the Illushin-76 transport plane of Russia, and its radar is not spiral(?) type U.S. or Russian use, but fixed attachment type, which put China one step further than U.S. and Russia.

Which analysis experts might that be? According to his "(?) he obviously doesn't know anything about it. :eek:nfloorl: :eek:nfloorl:
 

XEROX

New Member
I don't think its much of a competition. The PLAAF will win hands down in a one on one situation with the IAF.
You seem to be forgetting that India with its Phalcons can detect PLAAF movement very early on, and with it the MKIs can track 8 Chinease a/c at at time. Apart from their SUs they dont have many a/c that could overwhelm the MiGs, Mirages and SU-30MKIs.

On top of that i persoanlly think IAF is superier in terms of tacticts, i belive they had more hours of training and interacted with many forign forces as well
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
aaaditya said:
well guys here is the link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1644155/posts


The Crashed Plane Was a Brand-new AWACS Plane China Developed

A Chinese air force plane, which recently crashed in Anhui Province, killing all crews, turned out to be 'Gongjing-2000,' a brand-new AWACS plane China recently developed.
According to June 6th report of Hong Kong's Dai-gong-bao, the crashed plane is 'Gongjing-2000,' which China developed using a Russian AWACS plane as its model, and the accident would be recorded as the worst disaster for Chinese air force.
China produced four Gongjing-2000 AWACS planes, and assigned them to airforce unit under Nanjing Military District early this year. They were reportedly deployed at Wushi Air base in Jiang-su Province.
The plane, with 40 crews, crashed on 4pm, June 3rd, at Guang-de County, Anhui Province, killing all crews, but Chinese authorities only reported that a military transport plane had crashed.
On June 5th, in an unusual move, President Hu Jintao expressed deep condolence to victims, and gave an instruction to thoroughly investigate the cause of the crash.
Chinese media speculate that bad weather was the cause.
The crash would bring serious setback to Chinese development of AWACS.
China set out for developing its AWACS plane, in a joint venture with Russia and Israel since '97. When American pressure killed this project, China has been pursuing the development on its own, which was dispersed over 50 research institutes since late 2000.
According the analysis of military experts, it was modeled after the Illushin-76 transport plane of Russia, and its radar is not spiral(?) type U.S. or Russian use, but fixed attachment type, which put China one step further than U.S. and Russia.
lol, this analysis was totally based on the speculations of Andrei Pinkov of Kanwa. We can be quite sure that this is a Y-8, the question right now is which kind of Y-8 this is. A lot of people are speculating Y-8 Balance beam, but we don't know that. The official Chinese report says it's one of the many types of Y-8 transports. Until we get evidence other wise, this speculation of being an AWACS is just baseless rumours.

As I said in the other forums, KJ-2000 is not stationed in Anhui, there is no reason to believe that it would be flying there for testing or anything like that.
 

divinewind

New Member
Did anyone factor in Indo-US joint exercises. Apparently Mig 21 bison's did beat the american F-15's/F-16 in a few combat situations.
Any thought on how this would fare against Chinese planes?

Also R-172 with a range of 400km yes..i can't believe it myself
is being developed to kill Pakistani and Chinese AWAC's

Besides the skies in the future could belong to Su-47 an Indo-Russian
effort to surpass the JSF and Raptors, the Chinese have not been invited to this project, obviously Mother Russia is selling weapons to China so the
American's have a tough time and holding back state of the art technologies and offering it to more trustworthy political friends like India

The strength of a country also depend on political factors.
In that regard India is way stronger than China. The Japanese are wooing the Indians to evolve a joint strategy against China [no offense meant] along with the American's.


Chinese Navy with all its modernization is no match for the Japanese Navy and American Nuclear submarines working in tandem, add to this many of the Chinese submarines are of Russian which means their sonar profile is available to India !

But China and India despite their perceived threats are warming up to each other as well. For China and India are never to going to a conflict alone.

If at all a conflict arises between China and India it the Pacific fleet is going to Rain missiles in Shangai. So can Chinese J-XX, JF-17 and Pakistan's thunder counter F-22, JSF , MKI, LCA , SU-47 and offcourse the F-18's the F-16's

As for today..F-18 in its most advanced configuration is being offered to India, so are nuclear reactors. India a world power to safeguard American Interests? Condi and Bush think so?
 

tntsas

New Member
Only include weapons that will be fielded within a couple of months or in operational status. that means no j-xx, j-11a, j-10a, or lcas because none of them will be fielded within one year.

If this is the condition i think indian will win.
 

crobato

New Member
J-10A and J-11A are operational. Those had to be counted in.

Mod edit: No need for insults mate. Question his points if you want to challenge him. AD.
 
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ntchenjie

New Member
It's so surprising that that all the person here just justified which side is more heavy that the other due to the singal fact that the equipment has been armed by both sides.Though armor is important sometimes even crucial in the war,pilots is decisive elements in the war.Then turn to the topic,that both PLAAF an IAF use Russia-made fighters,it's meaningless to discuss which one is better,while china boasts its ability to reproduce su-27,which means china may optain the technics to produce the spare parts then then may quickly fixed the damaged planes.it'important in war.Besides That ,outweigh the history of both sides,we may draw a conclucion that PLAAF experienced more than IAF did after WW2(vs USA,VS TW),it is a valuebal assests may even determine the result.so ,PLAAF WILL WIN.
 

XEROX

New Member
Besides That ,outweigh the history of both sides,we may draw a conclucion that PLAAF experienced more than IAF did after WW2(vs USA,VS TW),it is a valuebal assests may even determine the result.so ,PLAAF WILL WIN.
Statergies evolve through time, what was acceptable after WW2, is not in todays climate, at the end of the day its Indian AF pilots who practise BVR, WVR tactitcs with the best of the best from around the world.
 

General Jumbo

New Member
IAF vs PLAAF

Hi
I am new to this forum. Seen the extensive dialogue on hardware. But can anybody shed any light on quality of IAF pilots vs PLAAF pilots? Thanks
 

richin

New Member
General Jumbo said:
Hi
I am new to this forum. Seen the extensive dialogue on hardware. But can anybody shed any light on quality of IAF pilots vs PLAAF pilots? Thanks
hi there, general jumbo, well i'm new to this forum aswell...cheers:)...well, coming to your question... as far as training is concerned, the IAF train with many airforces around the world, including some of the best, although it is often brought to light that due to shortage of 4th gen fighters, the flying hours clocked by piolts on modern platforms is not very reassuring..the overall usage of tactics and the level of training are really top notch (i can say that coz i've been following news n articles about the same for a while now)... n well, i assume, not much is known about the PLAAF; due to the nature of their governance...however, i hav reservations about the quality of their training since they dont appear to be very friendly to the most modern airforces around the world and they hav access to mostly russian harware...
 

srev2004

New Member
Su 30 MKI

Avionics
Avionics: The Su-30MKI features an all-weather, digital multi-mode, dual frequency, forward facing NIIP N-011M radar which has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 targets and engage the 8 most threatening simultaneously. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. The radar is combined with a helmet mounted sight system, which allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90º field of view, lock on to a target and launch the TVC-capable R-73RDM2 missile. The radar's forward hemisphere is ±90º in azimuth and ±55º in elevation. The N-011M ensures a 20 metre resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km.

Jaguar
Avionics: BAe-built Jaguars have the NAVWASS (NAVigation and Weapon-Aiming Sub-System) avionics suite, while HAL-built Jaguars have the more modern DARIN (Display Attack and Ranging Inertial Navigation) avionics suite which features a wide field-of-view Smiths (GEC Avionics) Type 1301 HUDWAC (Head-Up Display & Weapon Aiming Computer), a GEC-Ferranti COMED 2045 (Combined Map & Electronic Display), a SAGEM ULISS 82 INS and a LRMTS (Laser Ranger and Marked Target Seeker). The system also includes locally-designed IFF, ADF, radar altimeter, V/UHF and HF/SSB equipment. HAL-built Jaguars also have the MIL-STD-1553B digital databus, allowing for the fitting of a wide range of new weapons and systems.

The maritime attack variant, the Jaguar IM, has a nose-mounted Agave radar. The radar display is presented either in the head-up display (HUD) or in the normal COMED display. The radar, which is capable of air-to-air operations but optimised for maritime air-to-surface operations, scans through 140º in azimuth and through 6º or 12º in elevation (from a 60º arc).

Indian air force
Combat Aircraft - Air Superiority 294 (Incl 32 Trainers)
Ground Attack 300 (Incl 34 Trainers)
Second Line Combat Aircraft 99 (Incl 10 Trainers)
Helicopters 282
Transport Aircraft 254
Trainers 154
TOTAL 1383
 

srev2004

New Member
Training

The IAF offers a very rigorous flying training schedule for its pilots. Before being assigned to operational squadrons, pilots are expected to log over 300 hours of flying at the basic, intermediate and advanced levels. However, maintaining the very high standards of training will pose a challenge for the air force in the new century. The problem is particularly acute at the advanced fighter training level. The problem arises form the age and unsuitability of the MiG Operational Flying Training Unit's (MOFTU) aircraft. As of now fighter pilots are expected to log 125 hours on the unit's MiG-21FL and UM before being assigned to squadrons. The some of these aircraft are now over 30 years old and in very poor state of repair. The MiG-21FLs were phased out of Indian production in the mid-1970s hence spares for the type are very difficult to come by. Whatever spares are available are second-hand. Furthermore the early generations of MiG-21s are unforgiving aircraft and pushing over a certain AoA at over 600 knots, sends the aircraft into an uncontrollable spin. Old airframes together with the fact that many IAF pilots go straight from basic training to MiG-21FL/UM explains the high accident rates for the type. In addition to the human cost, this has an unfavorable impact on morale for younger pilots. The IAF has been trying for years to purchase suitable Advanced Jet Trainers (AJT) to ease the transition to high performance aircraft. Both the Hawk and Alpha Jet were evaluated in the 1980s, but funding problems & dithering on the part of the government kept IAF from placing orders. More recently, the IAF has revised its interest in purchasing the Hawk (the Alpha Jet being long out of production). However, Britain's inability (and reluctance) to refurbish Indian Navy Sea Harriers in the face of a US arms embargo have thrown into doubt the UK's ability to provide support for any Hawks that may be purchased. With the acquisition of AJT hanging in the air, the IAF's training problems are likely to get more acute. It is unfortunate that neither the IAF nor the Ministry of Defence has shown any interest in turning the HJT-36 intermediate trainer, now in development, into an AJT.

After a bad patch in the early 1990s, the IAF has been able to restore training in operational squadrons to their normal levels. Increased use of simulators have made a substantial difference to IAF training programs in recent years by making enhancing safety and preserving airframe life. Advanced fighter training has received a boost with the acquisition of Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) systems for the Tactics & Air Combat Development Establishment (TACDE) at Jamnagar. TACDE now offers courses in EW and helicopter combat. It also provides Dissimilar Air Combat Training (DACT) facilities to the Sea Harriers of the Navy.
 

srev2004

New Member
Emphasis on force multipliers

The IAF has been slow to induct force multipliers. While quick to deploy sizeable numbers of EW, ECM, and Reconnaissance assets, the IAF lacked an in-flight refueling capability and AWACS for years. Until the arrival of the Su-30s, only two aircraft types came with plumbing for in-flight refueling – Jaguars and Mirage 2000s. However, the IAF had the refueling probes of these aircraft removed in service. Until the early 1990s, the IAF remained a largely tactical force in its outlook. The prevailing view was that in case of a war with Pakistan, all major targets could be reached without the need for in-flight refueling. It was envisioned that any conflict with China would remain largely localized, again putting all targets within easy range of its aircraft. However, nuclearization and an expansion in the size of the IAF supporting aircraft forced a reconsideration of this view. The need to deploy specialized aircraft for duties such as Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD) and the lengths of time that such aircraft would have to kept airborne created a pressing need for an in-flight fueling capability. The first in-flight refueling trials were conducted between IAF Jaguars and a RAF VC-10 tanker on loan as recently as 1996. Since then, the IAF has placed orders for a number of IL-78 tankers. It is expected that eventually eight such aircraft will be acquired. In the interim, the IAF has inducted UPAZ buddy refueling system for its Su-30s, Mirages, and Jaguars. The MiG fleet too is being equipped with in-flight refueling capability as part of their upgrades. In the context of nuclearization, the introduction of in-flight refueling provides the IAF with a rudimentary, if somewhat less than secure, deterrent capability against China.

The deployment of MiG-21s as airborne radar pickets in 1971, provided the IAF with an early introduction to the benefits of Airborne Early Warning (AEW). Unfortunately, an initial paucity of funds and an eventual inability to find a suitable platform set the IAF's efforts to acquire an AEW/AWACS back by many years. The IAF evaluated the Soviet A-50 in 1988 and rejected it for being incompatible with the existing air defense grid. Recent efforts to build a such a system indigenously has been hampered by the inadequacy of the trials platform (a Hs.748) and the loss of one prototype (of three) along with the R&D team. The need for an AWACS was sorely felt during the Kargil war in 1999. Consequently, the IAF has resumed its search with much vigor. A pair of A-50s with the new Shmel-2 radar was leased from the Russian AF in May of this year to help familiarize the service with operation of such systems. The IAF is reluctant to purchase the A-50 "as is" because, as in 1988, it would be a challenge to integrate the system with the Indian air defense set up. The IAF is also unhappy that some of the information processing for the A-50 has to be done via ground stations. The IAF would like to customize the system with Indian and non-Russian electronic subsystems so that it can be integrated with the Indian air-defense grid with less difficulty. For this reason, it will still be sometime before the IAF fields a viable AWACS/AEW force. The service has a requirement for up to six such aircraft.

There are two further dimensions to the IAF's quest for force multipliers – namely, EW and Reconnaissance. The IAF has rather extensive ELINT gathering and reconnaissance assets available. The bulk of the ELINT aircraft (B707, An-32, and B737) are operated under the auspices of the Aviation Research Center (ARC) and photographic reconnaissance assets are operated by directly by the IAF. Scores of MiG-21MRs and MiG-23BNs form the backbone of the tactical reconnaissance force. For strategic reconnaissance the IAF deploys squadron each of Canberra PR 57/67 and MiG-25Rs, complemented by a few Gulfstream III SRA-1s fitted with oblique cameras, which can look deep into enemy territory. Additionally several types of combat aircraft can be fitted with reconnaissance pods. It is expected that the MiG-21MRs are will be withdrawn in the near future. However, the IAF is looking at potential upgrade packages for the Canberras (both P 67s and B (I) 58 versions) in order to keep these forty-year old aircraft in service until 2010. Most recently, the IAF has acquired the Viten Vicon reconnaissance pods for use in strike squadrons, in order to give then an autonomous reconnaissance capability. The recent introduction of high altitude unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) gave the IAF its first significant experience with real-time reconnaissance capability. It is expected that in the next 5-7 years the defense forces will deploy dedicated satellites to enhance their intelligence gathering capabilities.

The IAF accepts the fact that losses in men and materials are to be expected during the course of combat operations. However, the IAF has invested quite heavily in trying to make sure that such losses are kept to a minimum. Budgetary constraints notwithstanding, the IAF has attempted, with some success, to create a comprehensive countermeasures force. Specialized aircraft have been acquired to support strike packages with ECM and ECCM cover. Stocks of anti-radiation systems – both missiles (ARMAT, Kh-25MP, Kh-59) and drones (Harpy) – have been diligently built up for this purpose. A number of MiG-23 airframes have been modified for SEAD duties with ARMs. It is also understood that the both of two-seat Jaguars currently under production will augment existing SEAD capabilities. The Jaguars greater endurance may have contributed to its selection as the primary EW support aircraft for the future.
 

aaaditya

New Member
indian air force's biggest advantage is that it frequently trains with israel and ,usa and european nations and assiniliates knowledge from these nations in beyond visual combat,joint operations and use of force multipliers.
 

crobato

New Member
If you need to know the state of force multipliers in the PLAAF/PLANAF here goes.

KJ-2000 = This is China's homebuilt AWACS, based on converting IL-76s. The radar appears inspired from the Phalcon, using a massive 3 faced phase array. Not to be confused with the Mainstays, the KJ-2000s have additional aft rear stabilizer fins. At least four have been spotted with serial numbers 762, B4040, B4041, and B4043. One serial number remains unspotted, B4042.

KJ-200 = Another home built AWACS using the Y-8/An-12 platform. This version has a Erieye balance beam phase array layout. 2 or 3 have been spotted, one in civilian colors, another with six bladed propellers. One presumably lost in a recent crash.

KJ-X? = Another Y-8 variation with a rotating dome was spotted in Pakistan for a possible export marketing attempt. This one had additional stabilizers on the tips of the rear elevators.

Y-8 MPA = A number of Y-8s, at least 2, were modified with the Skymaster search radar from GEC Marconi. These serve maritime patrol, search, targeting, and AEW.

Y-8X = A number of Y-8s fitted with the Litton APS-503 search radar or copies thereof. They serve as AEW, MPA functions.

Y-8 C31 = This is a Y-8 turned into a flying C31 command center. Actual designation unknown.

Y-8 ELINT = This is a Y-8 with a large white chin radome, plus another radome on top of the back, along with various other antenna. Actual designation unknown.

Y-8 Surveillance = This is a Y-8 that appears with two bulging cheeks that house radar. Presumably this is said to be equivalent to a JSTARS.

Y-8 ECM = Another Y-8 variant intended for ECM use.

Tu-154 spy planes = A number of Tu-154s, at least two, have been spotted carrying radars and pods undernath their bellies. These planes are in civilian colors and look like airliners.

Su-30MKK/MR400 pods = In MAKS 2003, an Su-30MKK debuted showing a surveillance pod called the MR400.

H-5s have been modified as dedicated ECM aircraft. Su-27s, J-11s and Su-30s have been frequently spotted carrying multipoint pod jammers (Gardenia, Sorbitsya, Omul) in their wingtips.

Latest H-6 variants appear to have chin radars similar to those fielded by Y-8X.

PLAAF/PLAN is said to operate a datalink system called HN-900.
 

srev2004

New Member
If you need to know the state of force multipliers in the PLAAF/PLANAF here goes.

KJ-2000 = This is China's homebuilt AWACS, based on converting IL-76s. The radar appears inspired from the Phalcon, using a massive 3 faced phase array. Not to be confused with the Mainstays, the KJ-2000s have additional aft rear stabilizer fins. At least four have been spotted with serial numbers 762, B4040, B4041, and B4043. One serial number remains unspotted, B4042.

KJ-200 = Another home built AWACS using the Y-8/An-12 platform. This version has a Erieye balance beam phase array layout. 2 or 3 have been spotted, one in civilian colors, another with six bladed propellers. One presumably lost in a recent crash.

KJ-X? = Another Y-8 variation with a rotating dome was spotted in Pakistan for a possible export marketing attempt. This one had additional stabilizers on the tips of the rear elevators.

Y-8 MPA = A number of Y-8s, at least 2, were modified with the Skymaster search radar from GEC Marconi. These serve maritime patrol, search, targeting, and AEW.

Y-8X = A number of Y-8s fitted with the Litton APS-503 search radar or copies thereof. They serve as AEW, MPA functions.

Y-8 C31 = This is a Y-8 turned into a flying C31 command center. Actual designation unknown.

Y-8 ELINT = This is a Y-8 with a large white chin radome, plus another radome on top of the back, along with various other antenna. Actual designation unknown.

Y-8 Surveillance = This is a Y-8 that appears with two bulging cheeks that house radar. Presumably this is said to be equivalent to a JSTARS.

Y-8 ECM = Another Y-8 variant intended for ECM use.

Tu-154 spy planes = A number of Tu-154s, at least two, have been spotted carrying radars and pods undernath their bellies. These planes are in civilian colors and look like airliners.

Su-30MKK/MR400 pods = In MAKS 2003, an Su-30MKK debuted showing a surveillance pod called the MR400.

H-5s have been modified as dedicated ECM aircraft. Su-27s, J-11s and Su-30s have been frequently spotted carrying multipoint pod jammers (Gardenia, Sorbitsya, Omul) in their wingtips.

Latest H-6 variants appear to have chin radars similar to those fielded by Y-8X.

PLAAF/PLAN is said to operate a datalink system called HN-900.
:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUrpwSK7yO0

This video showcases some of our air superiority in foreign lands in the past.
 
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