PLAAF v. IAF
- Thread starter zoolander
- Start date
Yes but much more expensive and harder to maintain. India needs to cut back on the number of different platforms they use, streamline maintenance, logistics and training. Any future aircraft should also come with the opportunity for Indian industry to help develop upgrades etc, so that they can advance their knowledge base.zoolander said:i still believe they should buy the rafale or f-18.
Buy the rafale because it is similar to the mirage and india already operate a couple dozen of them
buy the f-18 because its just good plane
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
thats y they should buy the Rafale. It operate a fleet of mirage 2000. The rafale is very similar. I believe Grifen is a good plane and all but the Rafale is alot better. Then again Grifens are cheaper and its weakness can be fixed by upgrades.
India need to retire its old migs. They are at the point where they crash alot.
Since alot of the mig-27 and jaguars are goin to retire they should buy a more multirole aircrafts. The rafale is a good future option but they are specialty fighters rite now. The Grifen is okay but not good enough. They should co produce super flankers. F-18s would be a ideal choice rite now.
IN the future they compose their fleet of su-30s, marage 2000s, multirole Rafales(when they come out), f-18s and "new" mig 21s.
They need to buy more supersonic trainers. currently a large number of trainers are still subsonic. Makin a jump from subsonic to mach 2+ speeds is a big change. They also need to retire the older planes. If they dont they will crash anyway. India has like a crash every other week
India need to retire its old migs. They are at the point where they crash alot.
Since alot of the mig-27 and jaguars are goin to retire they should buy a more multirole aircrafts. The rafale is a good future option but they are specialty fighters rite now. The Grifen is okay but not good enough. They should co produce super flankers. F-18s would be a ideal choice rite now.
IN the future they compose their fleet of su-30s, marage 2000s, multirole Rafales(when they come out), f-18s and "new" mig 21s.
They need to buy more supersonic trainers. currently a large number of trainers are still subsonic. Makin a jump from subsonic to mach 2+ speeds is a big change. They also need to retire the older planes. If they dont they will crash anyway. India has like a crash every other week
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #64
enough about the indian air force projects.
I know the Chinese WS-10a is in production now.
How many are they producing a year?
Have they been fitted on any of the su-27 varriants or the j-10?
i know they are better than the engine the su-27 and j-10 are currently using how good is the WS-10A
Have they made a 3d TVC yet. I know they made a 2d TVC.
I know the Chinese WS-10a is in production now.
How many are they producing a year?
Have they been fitted on any of the su-27 varriants or the j-10?
i know they are better than the engine the su-27 and j-10 are currently using how good is the WS-10A
Have they made a 3d TVC yet. I know they made a 2d TVC.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #65
By 1997 ,the 10A project had advanced into the Preliminary Flight Rating Test (PFRT) phase.
The first flight of prototype( J-11WS/10A+??-31?)took place on June 6th 2002 .
By the end of 2003, the J-11B prototype succesefully made its first flight .
Early this year ,The Qualification Testing began including Endurance Testing ,Altitude Testing,Flight Testing ,Components & Accessories Testing.According to the News report , Vice General Manager of AVIC1 presented himself and started the engine for Endurance Qualification Testing on May 11st . according to schedule all Tests must be accomplished by the end of this year.
Structure and material:
1.Fan: 3 stages axial flow Fan with Variable Inlet Guide Vanes ?likely 16 Vanes?,Blades material-Tc4 titanium alloy . Pressure Ratio -approximately 3.3.
2.HP Compressor: 9 stages axial flow Compressor, 4 stages of variable stator vanes, Pressure Ratio -approximately 12.
3.Combustion Chamber: Compact Annular chamber.
4.HP turbine: 1 stage axial flow turbine ,blades-DS Alloy DZ125/DZ125L ,Turbine inlet guide vanes -Ni3Al intermetallic compound alloy,Turbine disks-FGH95 PM superalloy.
5.LP turbine: 2 stages axial flow turbines,blades-made of directionally solidified alloys perhapes DS Alloy DZ17GL.
6.augmentor & exhaust: omitted
Parameters:
1.Max. Power (daN): 12500~13200
2.T/W :7.5
3.OPR: >30
4.TIT(K):1650~1750
5.BPR : 0.78
6.Airflow(kg/s):124
The first flight of prototype( J-11WS/10A+??-31?)took place on June 6th 2002 .
By the end of 2003, the J-11B prototype succesefully made its first flight .
Early this year ,The Qualification Testing began including Endurance Testing ,Altitude Testing,Flight Testing ,Components & Accessories Testing.According to the News report , Vice General Manager of AVIC1 presented himself and started the engine for Endurance Qualification Testing on May 11st . according to schedule all Tests must be accomplished by the end of this year.
Structure and material:
1.Fan: 3 stages axial flow Fan with Variable Inlet Guide Vanes ?likely 16 Vanes?,Blades material-Tc4 titanium alloy . Pressure Ratio -approximately 3.3.
2.HP Compressor: 9 stages axial flow Compressor, 4 stages of variable stator vanes, Pressure Ratio -approximately 12.
3.Combustion Chamber: Compact Annular chamber.
4.HP turbine: 1 stage axial flow turbine ,blades-DS Alloy DZ125/DZ125L ,Turbine inlet guide vanes -Ni3Al intermetallic compound alloy,Turbine disks-FGH95 PM superalloy.
5.LP turbine: 2 stages axial flow turbines,blades-made of directionally solidified alloys perhapes DS Alloy DZ17GL.
6.augmentor & exhaust: omitted
Parameters:
1.Max. Power (daN): 12500~13200
2.T/W :7.5
3.OPR: >30
4.TIT(K):1650~1750
5.BPR : 0.78
6.Airflow(kg/s):124
Great info about the engine Zoolander! I noticed this one has relatively fewer stages in compressor than other engines, which I think is directed basically to weight reduction and reduced maintenance, 4 variable in compressor? Hmmmmm It'd be interesting to know what's its performance at high altitudes.
I usually prefer to base the plane numbers on ORBAT regimental assignments rather than foreign press reports which I find to be unreliable for determining actual numbers.
Given the deployment of J-11s, there are four full regiments with it using single seaters, with 4 two seater Su-27UBKs supporting them.
One in the 1st Division
One in the 2nd Division *
One in the 7th Division
One in the 14th Divison
* might be mixed Su-27SKs and J-11s.
These regiments consist of both mixed J-11s and Su-27SKs.
One in the 6th Division *
One in the 19th Division **
One in the 33rd Division ***
* might be pure J-11
** Might be transitioning to pure J-11
*** consists mostly of UBKs, but as UBKs are transferred to other regiments, J-11s replacing their Su-27UBKs.
Given that a J-11 regiment consists of 28-32 aircraft, this would definitely puts the J-11s well over a hundred (120 - 130 is possible). The J-11s would have filled up gaps in the attrition of older Su-27s.
As for J-10s, the numbers have to be upgraded, with at least five regiments. This would now put the numbers over 100. The J-10 regiment appears to be smaller though than the J-11 regiment, around 22 to 24 aircraft J-10s but there may be some numbers of J-7s and JJ-7s supporting them.
One FTTC trials regiment
Two regiments with the 44th Division
One regiment in the 3rd Division
One regiment in the 2nd Division
Deino posted a good list of J-8II regiments, with each regiment numbering 30 to 40 aircraft.
1st Fighter Division
3rd Air Regiment in Anshan J-8F (13x2x)
2nd Fighter Division
4th Air Regiment in Suixi J-8B (14x3x)
6th Fighter Division
16th Air Regiment in Yinchuan J-8I (10x7x) ... now J-11 !?!
9th Fighter Division
25th Air Regiment in Foshan (Shadi) J-8D (11x0x)
12th Fighter Division
34th Air Regiment in Jinan J-8B (30x3x)
18th Fighter Division
54nd Air Regiment in Changsha or Shaodong J-8B/D xxxxx (?)
21st Fighter Division
61st Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang J8H 2xx2x
62nd Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang J-8H 20x2x
one Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang ??? 22x2x
24th Fighter Division
70th Air Regiment in Yangcun J-8A/E 20x5x
71st Air Regiment in Zunhua J-8A/E 2xx5x
72th Air Regiment in Yangcun J-8A/E 20x5x
26th Fighter Division
76th Air Regiment in Shanghai-Chongming Island J-8D 20x7x
77th Air Regiment in Shanghai-Chongming Island J-8D 21x7x
29th Fighter Division
86th or 87th Air Regiment in Quzhou J-8D/H 41x0x (?)
30th Fighter Division
88th Air Regiment in Dandong
89th Air Regiment in Dandong
90th Air Regiment in Dandong all J-8E 5xx1x
1st Test Flight Regiment
Shenyang Aircraft Corp (SAC) in Shenyang
3rd Air Regiment "Blue Force Regiment" of the Flight Test & Training Center in Cangzhou-Cangxian J-8A / J-8B (72x6x)
4th Independent Fighter Reconnaissance Regiment in Yuhong JZ-8 (35x5)
PLA-Naval Aviation:
5th Fighter/Ground Attack Division
15th Air Regiment in Qingdao-Liuting J-8A (83x5x)
9th Fighter Division
25th Regiment in Lingshui J8B/D (81x9x)
Given the deployment of J-11s, there are four full regiments with it using single seaters, with 4 two seater Su-27UBKs supporting them.
One in the 1st Division
One in the 2nd Division *
One in the 7th Division
One in the 14th Divison
* might be mixed Su-27SKs and J-11s.
These regiments consist of both mixed J-11s and Su-27SKs.
One in the 6th Division *
One in the 19th Division **
One in the 33rd Division ***
* might be pure J-11
** Might be transitioning to pure J-11
*** consists mostly of UBKs, but as UBKs are transferred to other regiments, J-11s replacing their Su-27UBKs.
Given that a J-11 regiment consists of 28-32 aircraft, this would definitely puts the J-11s well over a hundred (120 - 130 is possible). The J-11s would have filled up gaps in the attrition of older Su-27s.
As for J-10s, the numbers have to be upgraded, with at least five regiments. This would now put the numbers over 100. The J-10 regiment appears to be smaller though than the J-11 regiment, around 22 to 24 aircraft J-10s but there may be some numbers of J-7s and JJ-7s supporting them.
One FTTC trials regiment
Two regiments with the 44th Division
One regiment in the 3rd Division
One regiment in the 2nd Division
Deino posted a good list of J-8II regiments, with each regiment numbering 30 to 40 aircraft.
1st Fighter Division
3rd Air Regiment in Anshan J-8F (13x2x)
2nd Fighter Division
4th Air Regiment in Suixi J-8B (14x3x)
6th Fighter Division
16th Air Regiment in Yinchuan J-8I (10x7x) ... now J-11 !?!
9th Fighter Division
25th Air Regiment in Foshan (Shadi) J-8D (11x0x)
12th Fighter Division
34th Air Regiment in Jinan J-8B (30x3x)
18th Fighter Division
54nd Air Regiment in Changsha or Shaodong J-8B/D xxxxx (?)
21st Fighter Division
61st Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang J8H 2xx2x
62nd Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang J-8H 20x2x
one Air Regiment in Mudanjiang-Hailang ??? 22x2x
24th Fighter Division
70th Air Regiment in Yangcun J-8A/E 20x5x
71st Air Regiment in Zunhua J-8A/E 2xx5x
72th Air Regiment in Yangcun J-8A/E 20x5x
26th Fighter Division
76th Air Regiment in Shanghai-Chongming Island J-8D 20x7x
77th Air Regiment in Shanghai-Chongming Island J-8D 21x7x
29th Fighter Division
86th or 87th Air Regiment in Quzhou J-8D/H 41x0x (?)
30th Fighter Division
88th Air Regiment in Dandong
89th Air Regiment in Dandong
90th Air Regiment in Dandong all J-8E 5xx1x
1st Test Flight Regiment
Shenyang Aircraft Corp (SAC) in Shenyang
3rd Air Regiment "Blue Force Regiment" of the Flight Test & Training Center in Cangzhou-Cangxian J-8A / J-8B (72x6x)
4th Independent Fighter Reconnaissance Regiment in Yuhong JZ-8 (35x5)
PLA-Naval Aviation:
5th Fighter/Ground Attack Division
15th Air Regiment in Qingdao-Liuting J-8A (83x5x)
9th Fighter Division
25th Regiment in Lingshui J8B/D (81x9x)
No canards or FBW or anything that drastic. The latest upgrades are engine and avionics only: 2 MFD cockpit, upgraded slot array radar with PL-12 support, and Kunlun engines which are more powerful, more reliable and economical compared to WP-13 engines. The upgrades are either in the new airframe J-8F variant, or MLU upgrades on the J-8D and J-8H variants. Many earlier J-8B were upgraded to the J-8D level before.
The J-8s still include the J-8Es and JZ-8s recon planes. Surprisingly many of the first generation J-8s are around, now upgraded to the J-8E which can use the PL-8 missile.
The design may be old and not too agile, but it is strong and flexible. The large radar nose has plenty of room for avionics, allowing suites of modern radars and sensors. The structure has been toughened and constantly improved throughout the years so it can still carry a decent payload.
Basically the program is now in a shoestring budget. The conversions to J-8H and J-8F is very slow, so far only one regiment has converted to J-8F and 2 regiments to J-8H, but even in the last part, it's mixed with upgraded J-8Ds. Seems more like MLU upgrades are being done on the existing fleet. After this I believe that the program is basically allowed to die out, although some few more J-8Fs are built. The regiments will be eventually converted to J-10/J-11, and the planes moved to backwater units still equip with J-7B.
Likewise, J-7G conversions also seem few. The regiments with J-7E will slowly convert to J-10/11, then the J-7Es passed on to backwater units still with J-7B.
J-6s no longer appear to be in service, though many airfields still has JJ-6s and JJ-5s (trainer versions).
My estimated conversion rate is one J-11 and two J-10 regiments per year, and 3 regiments being converted to JH-7A or H-6H (3 fighter regiments and 3 bomber regiments). Despite the two seater Q-5s and the Q-5 versions that could use LGBs, I think the Q-5s are also headed the retirement way. I expect to see a new J-11 regiment and one or two JH-7A regiments this year, in addition to two new J-10 regiments, which we have recently forming in the 2nd Division at Guanxi and the 3rd Division at Wuhu.
The J-8s still include the J-8Es and JZ-8s recon planes. Surprisingly many of the first generation J-8s are around, now upgraded to the J-8E which can use the PL-8 missile.
The design may be old and not too agile, but it is strong and flexible. The large radar nose has plenty of room for avionics, allowing suites of modern radars and sensors. The structure has been toughened and constantly improved throughout the years so it can still carry a decent payload.
Basically the program is now in a shoestring budget. The conversions to J-8H and J-8F is very slow, so far only one regiment has converted to J-8F and 2 regiments to J-8H, but even in the last part, it's mixed with upgraded J-8Ds. Seems more like MLU upgrades are being done on the existing fleet. After this I believe that the program is basically allowed to die out, although some few more J-8Fs are built. The regiments will be eventually converted to J-10/J-11, and the planes moved to backwater units still equip with J-7B.
Likewise, J-7G conversions also seem few. The regiments with J-7E will slowly convert to J-10/11, then the J-7Es passed on to backwater units still with J-7B.
J-6s no longer appear to be in service, though many airfields still has JJ-6s and JJ-5s (trainer versions).
My estimated conversion rate is one J-11 and two J-10 regiments per year, and 3 regiments being converted to JH-7A or H-6H (3 fighter regiments and 3 bomber regiments). Despite the two seater Q-5s and the Q-5 versions that could use LGBs, I think the Q-5s are also headed the retirement way. I expect to see a new J-11 regiment and one or two JH-7A regiments this year, in addition to two new J-10 regiments, which we have recently forming in the 2nd Division at Guanxi and the 3rd Division at Wuhu.
The J-11s (not the old Su-27SKs) got an upgrade done by Technocomplex (Russian firm). It adds a software and hardware upgrade to the radar that enables them to fire the R-77, but it does not give them air to ground capability. The modules appear to be designed by NIIP Tikhomirov. The last 28 Su-27UBKs came with the upgrade preinstalled.
So yeah, up to a hundred or so J-11s came with an improved N001 radar. Beyond that, it appears to be using a Chinese radar of some sorts. Is it a Chinese copy of the N001 radar with some improvements? Before there was some news that a Chinese programmer managed to decode the Su-27's software code. But it is more likely its an indigenous Chinese designed radar (NRIET KLJ series) that is made compatible with the J-11's airframe. The technology of this radar is based on the ones used on the J-10 and J-8F.
We know that China has resumed or has not stopped J-11 production. But they have stopped importing kits, which provide the radar and avionics. At some point, China has to reorder some of these components seperately. KANWA has reported that China has ordered OLS-31E seperately for J-11 production. This is the same IRST used on the Su-30/35 series and is more advanced than the OLS-27 used on the Su-27SK. The detection range is doubled and the IRST can be used to target designate for LGBs.
Despite some orders for engines and the OLS-31E, there is no orders for more N001E or even N001VEP radars. If China ordered some for J-11 production it would have been too obvious and would have caught the media attention. Not to mention the advertising value for the Russian company. We have not seen any orders for the analog FBW and the RWR, but these are smaller items that may not catch media attention. I have not seen any order of L-015 Pastel RWR, so far J-11s are still (disappointingly) use the older L-006 Beryoza RWR though later J-11s might skip that and use the same RWR as the J-10s. It might seem that the PLAAF might be satisfied with the Beryoza, though the MKKs use the Pastel RWR, or it is because the Beryoza is licensed to China or that China has managed to copy or reverse engineer it. I do expect that the J-11s would use the RWR from the J-10, which of different design and some say is even better.
As for ECM, the SKs initially came with the Gardenia pods, which is based on the internal ECM sysetm used on Russian use only MiG-29s that were not exported. These however do not use the multipoint phase array system used by Sorbitsya pods used on Russian Su-27S. It is not clear if the Gardenia pod is licensed to China for production. However, this does not rule out that China may have ordered and acquired Sorbitsya pods much later in a seperate contract to supply the J-11s. The latest ECM pod is the Omul. which were made for the MKK. The J-11s may have upgraded to using the Omul as well. Also possible that China may have developed a compatible ECM pod, but since all use the same housing anyway, no one can tell the physical difference by sight alone.
So yeah, up to a hundred or so J-11s came with an improved N001 radar. Beyond that, it appears to be using a Chinese radar of some sorts. Is it a Chinese copy of the N001 radar with some improvements? Before there was some news that a Chinese programmer managed to decode the Su-27's software code. But it is more likely its an indigenous Chinese designed radar (NRIET KLJ series) that is made compatible with the J-11's airframe. The technology of this radar is based on the ones used on the J-10 and J-8F.
We know that China has resumed or has not stopped J-11 production. But they have stopped importing kits, which provide the radar and avionics. At some point, China has to reorder some of these components seperately. KANWA has reported that China has ordered OLS-31E seperately for J-11 production. This is the same IRST used on the Su-30/35 series and is more advanced than the OLS-27 used on the Su-27SK. The detection range is doubled and the IRST can be used to target designate for LGBs.
Despite some orders for engines and the OLS-31E, there is no orders for more N001E or even N001VEP radars. If China ordered some for J-11 production it would have been too obvious and would have caught the media attention. Not to mention the advertising value for the Russian company. We have not seen any orders for the analog FBW and the RWR, but these are smaller items that may not catch media attention. I have not seen any order of L-015 Pastel RWR, so far J-11s are still (disappointingly) use the older L-006 Beryoza RWR though later J-11s might skip that and use the same RWR as the J-10s. It might seem that the PLAAF might be satisfied with the Beryoza, though the MKKs use the Pastel RWR, or it is because the Beryoza is licensed to China or that China has managed to copy or reverse engineer it. I do expect that the J-11s would use the RWR from the J-10, which of different design and some say is even better.
As for ECM, the SKs initially came with the Gardenia pods, which is based on the internal ECM sysetm used on Russian use only MiG-29s that were not exported. These however do not use the multipoint phase array system used by Sorbitsya pods used on Russian Su-27S. It is not clear if the Gardenia pod is licensed to China for production. However, this does not rule out that China may have ordered and acquired Sorbitsya pods much later in a seperate contract to supply the J-11s. The latest ECM pod is the Omul. which were made for the MKK. The J-11s may have upgraded to using the Omul as well. Also possible that China may have developed a compatible ECM pod, but since all use the same housing anyway, no one can tell the physical difference by sight alone.
They could buy the software and the hardware mods. Sukhoi has offered China a complete packaged upgrade that includes alll the mods, a new digital cockpit, RWR, IRST, and IFR probe, and the new plane will be called Su-27SKM. Labor included. The bill is for 5 million per plane.
But the PLAAF didn't pursue it. Apparently it prefered to use a domestic upgrade instead based on J-10 technologies. One of the reasons maybe because the domestic package will be able to support domestic missiles like the PL-12.
But the PLAAF didn't pursue it. Apparently it prefered to use a domestic upgrade instead based on J-10 technologies. One of the reasons maybe because the domestic package will be able to support domestic missiles like the PL-12.
zoolander said:are they puttin the ws-10a engine on any aircrafts yet
Other than the prototypes, this is hard to ascertain. We are depending on leaks and plane spotter pictures here. But even then it is very difficult because you need a closeup on the engine to identify properly. I believe the engine may already be installed in small numbers and these planes are currently on an initial operational trial stage.