PLAAF v. IAF
- Thread starter zoolander
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actually this was stated my the indian defence ministry officials during the defexpo2006,it was a pretty big headline news and i have posted those articles.chinawhite said:The green pine radars are part of the arrorow defence system which is a mini ABM system have in place on the indian pakistani border. Not lacking in capability for the system but very limited in scope
Unlikey since the russians ABM is non existant or completely obsolete. And their ATBM is basically the S-300 reworked. And by the way where do these rumours sterm from?
india actually wanted their atbm to be based on the arrow ,since it was the only missile of the lot having the minimum possible reaction time and meeting india's requirements clearly.however thanks to us interference the deal did not materialise.however india had received two green pine radars for research purposes,about two days back there was a news article stating that a long range radars was under advanced stage of development and was expected to be tested within the next 2-3 years.
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- #23
What about Ground Strike capablilities. In modern combat, ground stike, close air surport are increasingly important. I understand the chinese operate a large fleet of old Q-5s, some jh-7s, the Su-30Mkks and also the J-10.
India also operate some multirole aircrafts but i dont know which one has extensive ground attack capabilities.
Oh yeah Iron bombs are not ground attack, thats just suicide in modern combat. It is not accurate enough anyways.
India also operate some multirole aircrafts but i dont know which one has extensive ground attack capabilities.
Oh yeah Iron bombs are not ground attack, thats just suicide in modern combat. It is not accurate enough anyways.
Absolutely! Today standoff and precission have the edge on ground attack doesn't mean you don't have the ability, but you're way more constrained, so it's not about the aircraft only but also on the weapons aiming and timing, I don't know what sort of systems are installed on IAF fighters in regards of GPS, FLIR, target designation and data-link and the offensive weapons. Wild Weasel and ECM capability are also important. Another reason to consider Western aircraft seriously.
The extremely overwhelming numbers of bombs in the US inventory are iron bombs. Now depending on the mission requirements, kits are attached to them so as to convert them to one of the different PGM options, or they are left in their normal configuration and used conventionally.zoolander said:Oh yeah Iron bombs are not ground attack, thats just suicide in modern combat. It is not accurate enough anyways.
p.s. Modern "iron bombs", dropped by US pilots, usually hit within 10-30yds from the target. When you're talking about a Mk84, that is more than close enough to destroy the target.
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- #26
ok but with modern anti air, dropping a iron is way too dangerous. Imagine flying a su-30mkk2 at low altutude to drop a "dumb" iron bomb. Besides smart bombs, and other lasar guided or tv guided bombs are way mroe accurate.
If u guys dont know anything about ground attack we could just go to anti air abilities
i know china has a couple of "impenatrable" air zones located acrross the taiwan strait.
india is delveloping or paying the russians to make like a 400km SAM
start with longrange, medium , short and then man pods.
please dont discuss stationary or towed AAA guns
If u guys dont know anything about ground attack we could just go to anti air abilities
i know china has a couple of "impenatrable" air zones located acrross the taiwan strait.
india is delveloping or paying the russians to make like a 400km SAM
start with longrange, medium , short and then man pods.
please dont discuss stationary or towed AAA guns
My two cents, it really depends on the target. You have a high value target and you throw every thing at it. Also I seem to remember that B52 was used dropping iron bombs in the Kosovo campaign. Are we suggesting that the Serb defences are not comparable?zoolander said:ok but with modern anti air, dropping a iron is way too dangerous. Imagine flying a su-30mkk2 at low altutude to drop a "dumb" iron bomb. Besides smart bombs, and other lasar guided or tv guided bombs are way mroe accurate.
If u guys dont know anything about ground attack we could just go to anti air abilities
i know china has a couple of "impenatrable" air zones located acrross the taiwan strait.
india is delveloping or paying the russians to make like a 400km SAM
start with longrange, medium , short and then man pods.
please dont discuss stationary or towed AAA guns
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- #28
we are excluding stratigic bombers rite now. Imagine a su-30MKI bombing the enemy with 3 iron dumb bombs. Cant picture it me either.
And to get back on u about the speculation of the future of J-10 and J-11.
The WS-10a is already in production. It was tested a J-11 before the prototype was finally cleared for mass production. I read that the chinese are updating their old j-11s with chinese made radars and etc. This will of course include the Ws-10a engine.
I am speculating that the J-10 will get TVC but it is defintely getting the WS-10a engine. The engine is a lot lighter and more powerful.
i am not specualting when i say the j-11 or j-10 will defitely get the ws-10a.
the engine went into production last year, it has to be fitted onto something and i strongly doubt they are hiding a ready to manufacture aircraft from the world that will use the ws-10a.
Back to the technology and production. India does have the capital to make weapons. They lack the factories and etc. india is not embargoed. China still depends on Russians and they know china reverse engineer everything so they have to hold back on some technology.
But without a doubt china and india will be stronger than russia and take the 2 and 3 spot as world superpowers in about 20 years
And to get back on u about the speculation of the future of J-10 and J-11.
The WS-10a is already in production. It was tested a J-11 before the prototype was finally cleared for mass production. I read that the chinese are updating their old j-11s with chinese made radars and etc. This will of course include the Ws-10a engine.
I am speculating that the J-10 will get TVC but it is defintely getting the WS-10a engine. The engine is a lot lighter and more powerful.
i am not specualting when i say the j-11 or j-10 will defitely get the ws-10a.
the engine went into production last year, it has to be fitted onto something and i strongly doubt they are hiding a ready to manufacture aircraft from the world that will use the ws-10a.
Back to the technology and production. India does have the capital to make weapons. They lack the factories and etc. india is not embargoed. China still depends on Russians and they know china reverse engineer everything so they have to hold back on some technology.
But without a doubt china and india will be stronger than russia and take the 2 and 3 spot as world superpowers in about 20 years
chinawhite
New Member
What articles?. But post them here anywayaaaditya said:it was a pretty big headline news and i have posted those articles.
Why is it now people call it ATBM?. It should only be ABM which means anti-ballistic missile defence, while you write Anti tactical(just assuming you write it like that) ballistic missile defence. ABM covers all ballistic missiles.india actually wanted their atbm to be based on the arrow
India actually wanted to buy the arrow system which the US objected to in 2000 something. The whole system is called the AWS which consist of the Green pines, Arrow launchers and the Citron tree fire control which the indians did not get thus the purchase of the green pines which have been linked up to the S-300 or other missiles. What the indians are trying to set up is a early warning system of metric and centric radars on the border which detect LO targets and the other ones which have over the horizon capability
But the RUssians offering a ABM system is news to me since the only missiles i think they would export which are not nuclear capable would be the S-300 variants which have anti-ballistic missile capability. But it surprised me since the S-300 wouldn't be the best choice. I would think that the S-400 is not ready considering it has not been put up in arms shows which the russians would do. Or maye your suggesting that india and russia have a joint development on this missile?
But i would have to think that india couldn't pull off a system to defend againest pakistani missiles ballistic and cruise ones since it would be impossible to protect againest 50 or so missiles without sending a lot of money on this system. What im interested in is americans THAAD system which uses the laser system which is only a threater system but it would only work if it was provided with enough warning to get the plnes to the area since it would be very quick for a tacical missiles to launch. But if india would consider putting them up 24/7 they would need a big fleet to provide coverage since planes have to re-fuel and have to have maintance.
What the indians i suspect are doing is thinking of a limited war involing tactical nukes on planes or cruise missiles to attack pakistan first if they were in a stand off in kashmir or some other event where their cold start doctrime could launch a pre-emtive attack agaienst pakistans communicaions while the limited ABM system could decrease the damage to india intercepting maybe 50% of incoming missiles. But i think this is being covered somewhat by the Babur which would be launched very low in land based lanuchers or in the area where its LO body could jsut arrive at a target or even take out indias ABM systems
But anyway i think these ABM systems india is getting wont be russian
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- #30
i think its gonna be indian update of the s-300. most likely new guidance and etc.
Either way you cant stop a barrage of ballistic missiles. It hard enough for the United States to stop one skud, imagine trying to stop 40 missile comin at once
Either way you cant stop a barrage of ballistic missiles. It hard enough for the United States to stop one skud, imagine trying to stop 40 missile comin at once
i have already posted those articles ,search for them if you want to.chinawhite said:What articles?. But post them here anyway
Why is it now people call it ATBM?. It should only be ABM which means anti-ballistic missile defence, while you write Anti tactical(just assuming you write it like that) ballistic missile defence. ABM covers all ballistic missiles.
India actually wanted to buy the arrow system which the US objected to in 2000 something. The whole system is called the AWS which consist of the Green pines, Arrow launchers and the Citron tree fire control which the indians did not get thus the purchase of the green pines which have been linked up to the S-300 or other missiles. What the indians are trying to set up is a early warning system of metric and centric radars on the border which detect LO targets and the other ones which have over the horizon capability
But the RUssians offering a ABM system is news to me since the only missiles i think they would export which are not nuclear capable would be the S-300 variants which have anti-ballistic missile capability. But it surprised me since the S-300 wouldn't be the best choice. I would think that the S-400 is not ready considering it has not been put up in arms shows which the russians would do. Or maye your suggesting that india and russia have a joint development on this missile?
But i would have to think that india couldn't pull off a system to defend againest pakistani missiles ballistic and cruise ones since it would be impossible to protect againest 50 or so missiles without sending a lot of money on this system. What im interested in is americans THAAD system which uses the laser system which is only a threater system but it would only work if it was provided with enough warning to get the plnes to the area since it would be very quick for a tacical missiles to launch. But if india would consider putting them up 24/7 they would need a big fleet to provide coverage since planes have to re-fuel and have to have maintance.
What the indians i suspect are doing is thinking of a limited war involing tactical nukes on planes or cruise missiles to attack pakistan first if they were in a stand off in kashmir or some other event where their cold start doctrime could launch a pre-emtive attack agaienst pakistans communicaions while the limited ABM system could decrease the damage to india intercepting maybe 50% of incoming missiles. But i think this is being covered somewhat by the Babur which would be launched very low in land based lanuchers or in the area where its LO body could jsut arrive at a target or even take out indias ABM systems
But anyway i think these ABM systems india is getting wont be russian
india has already declared an internationally a no first strike policy and that is the prime reason that they are going for a nuclear triad.
india currently has plans for three projects:
1)the indo-russian system which i have mentioned earlier.
2)an indigenous system of which not much is known except that it has a range of 160kms ,there was alos an image of this missiles motor published in a drdo publication.and also development of akash missile along with the rajendra radar.
3)joint development of the 70kms barak2 missile(range can be increased by the addition of a booster),with israel for the indian navy.
chinawhite
New Member
Well thats completely self condictory since their doctrime is first strike. Cold start is all about first strike and using indias nukes which are already extremely small would be a perfect solution if a war was blooming. But that was only a possble senario not what i was claiming they would use. hence i said i suspect not i claim.india has already declared an internationally a no first strike policy and that is the prime reason that they are going for a nuclear triad.
A nuclear triad does not mean it is just for self-defence but a example of it is being used as self defence. Its kinda of condictory since both in defense and offense the nuclear triad system would be just as effective
Maybe you were refering to this article1)the indo-russian system which i have mentioned earlier.
"NEW DELHI : Russia is in "advanced" negotiations with India on weapons and equipment worth $10 billions, head of a high-level Russian delegation Vyatcheslav Dzirkaln said here on Thursday.
By offering several high-end military platforms, Russia would be attempting to gain the "lost ground" in recent years to Israeli, French, British and American companies.
The proposals being considered by the Indian side include an anti-missile defence shield for the entire country, technology transfer for indigenous production of 1,000 tanks, development and production of medium transport aircraft and conceptual work on a fifth generation fighter aircraft. Russia also proposes to sell submarines and help India develop an aero-engine."
http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/04/stor...0403321300.htm
Well your 10 billion dollar completely threw me off since this is enmorous deal just for a defence system but in actual fact its a deal or a whole range of systems. While the american system is not going to cost under 10billion and considering that india is a massive country as well the russians would not be able to provide defence for their whole country.
The american NMD system is costing between 200billion to one trillion dollars being aimed to defend againest rogue missile attacks while india which has two potentional enemies with a lot larger arsenals will only spend a lot under 10billion. To me the americans should abandom their system and go for russian ones
cost of NMD
Well to see it is to believe itan indigenous system joint development of the 70kms barak2
cold strike is a doctrine for the conventional forces,according to the indian defence planners,in the event of a future war the international intervention will take place within 24 to 72 hours of the start of hostilities,this time would be lost if the indian armed forces (the strike corps)have to be moved from deep inside india ,that is the reason why india has set a new army command closer to the border as well as a new airforce command known as the swac(south western air command),the emphasis would be rapid assault in order to try and cause as much destruction to the enemies defence and econonmic infrastructure as possible,under this concept the holding corps have now been changed to pivot corps(the holding corps were purely defensive in nature intended to hold the terriotery captured by the strike corps or to defend the indian terriotery while the strike corps took to the battle to the enemies homeland,but the pivot corps serve as both the attackers and defenders as the situation arises.)in the earlier wars in the subcontinent the emphasis was on capturing and holding of terriotery,now the emphasis will be on carry out as much damage to the enemy as possible using conventional weapons.for this synergy between the three surfaces of the indian armed forces will be created.chinawhite said:Well thats completely self condictory since their doctrime is first strike. Cold start is all about first strike and using indias nukes which are already extremely small would be a perfect solution if a war was blooming. But that was only a possble senario not what i was claiming they would use. hence i said i suspect not i claim.
A nuclear triad does not mean it is just for self-defence but a example of it is being used as self defence. Its kinda of condictory since both in defense and offense the nuclear triad system would be just as effective
Maybe you were refering to this article
"NEW DELHI : Russia is in "advanced" negotiations with India on weapons and equipment worth $10 billions, head of a high-level Russian delegation Vyatcheslav Dzirkaln said here on Thursday.
By offering several high-end military platforms, Russia would be attempting to gain the "lost ground" in recent years to Israeli, French, British and American companies.
The proposals being considered by the Indian side include an anti-missile defence shield for the entire country, technology transfer for indigenous production of 1,000 tanks, development and production of medium transport aircraft and conceptual work on a fifth generation fighter aircraft. Russia also proposes to sell submarines and help India develop an aero-engine."
http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/04/stor...0403321300.htm
Well your 10 billion dollar completely threw me off since this is enmorous deal just for a defence system but in actual fact its a deal or a whole range of systems. While the american system is not going to cost under 10billion and considering that india is a massive country as well the russians would not be able to provide defence for their whole country.
The american NMD system is costing between 200billion to one trillion dollars being aimed to defend againest rogue missile attacks while india which has two potentional enemies with a lot larger arsenals will only spend a lot under 10billion. To me the americans should abandom their system and go for russian ones
cost of NMD
Well to see it is to believe it
off course under this the troops are specifically trained in combat in areas nuclear zones,simulating their ability to survive a nuclear strike and still retain their operational effectiveness as well as commando operations.
the fact that india is developing a second strike nuclear concept has nothing to do with the doctrine of cold start which derives its lessons from the operation parakram and the kargil war.
if you want you can google for it and see if you can find any more info about this ,the best sources would be outlook magazine who carried out deep analysis of this concept .i will try to post any article on this that i may come across.
Of course. Kaveri has been a nice learning project, but it's starting to look as promising as the ARJUN--nice try, but way short.zoolander said:Do you guys think the LCA project will end up using a foreign engine
That is why whoever gets the contract for the new combat aircraft will have to provide a lot of engine know-how as part of the contract.
there has been no mention of the lca project being on a standstill,the project is still going on as per its schedule ,check www.ada.gov.in for the latest status on the project.zoolander said:with the lca project at a standstill what is gonna replace it as the next lightweight fighter.
the french safran group a subsidiary of the snecma moteurs has won the preferential bid contest for developing the kaveri engine in a joint venture with drdo (including the kaveri marine gas turbine engine for ships) the participants in this competition are saturn of russia(india is already developing with them the al55 engine for the hjt-36ijt and the hjt39cat and can also be used for combat aircrafts),prat and whitney and general electric of usa,rolls royce of britain.
chinawhite
New Member
First off its not cold strike.
ITS COLD START . Second time i had to correct someone over this
The whole basis of the cold start doctrime is to avoid pakistani nuclear attack and international reaction. While in the last three wars thought india was forced to back down by international reaction and other reasons. While in 1999 kargil war set the tone of this because the indians reacted slowly and when they finally did step in to do something international world attention was againest them. So in 2002 they started to or already developed how to win a a fast limited war striking only as far as it can without pakistani nuking them.
Since
a) The pakistani government has said that it will nuke india if it is about to lose the war or a large portion is being held or being in the process of being captured.
b) So world opinion would not go againest them if it is a short war. eg it could turn nuclear
c) Cold start does not call for general mobilization and is to be done in secret so the indians have full surprise advantage. Instead of say a month for general mobilization you have it in 1-2 days for your battle groups and attack the pakistanis which would mobilize in say a week.
So as their intial reaction to this new doctrime the indian army has moved to battle groups instead of strike corps(which you got confused with). The way indians use to fight a war with pakistan were with soviet style strike groups which would attack in force not nessary to win a engament with the enemy but hold terrioty until after the war so they had bargining chips after peace was settled. eg strike corps first then defensive crops scond. But as we saw in kargil this was not the case since any strike corps into pakistan would have been met with a nuclear reply. and the only way was to attack until your force was ready and let world opinoin build up againest you. The battle groups now are not to go in and hold terrioty but go in quickly engage pakistani forces and come out as quick as possible so nukes can be thrown.
How they do it is using the battle groups combined with airsupport and sea support to initially win the advantage with missile attacks (eg Yakhornt missiles and ballistic non-nuclear missiles) and long range artillery to take out command post communications while the battle groups spear head attacks on ground with airforce ground support. eg Mig-27s jaguars. And nearly all indian aircraft are now being turned into multi-roled craft. While think of this as a Blitzkrieg attack instead of a steam roller attack the indians were proposing before. In current contrast all major wars india had with pakistan they had a large conventional lead but were to slow to attack which lead to world opinion turning againest them and pakistan which would easily call in china or the US or both to calm this situation because before the war started you would have them calling for india to back down. But india attacks before the US or china have any time to react they dont have that much pressure. I think the time scale they will be on is something like 3 days to achieve their goals
What really is sticking out to me is india wont declare war when they attack. But anyway this would only work if it had the advantage of surprise. But the strange thing is they base this stratgery on what they pakistanis say they are going to do with nuclear weapons.
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But intially i was trying to relay to you that in a war where it wasn't going to be limited cold start combined with a indian ABM and indian nuclear attacks would be extremely effective in a war and would easily win the war with pakistan. Using indian nuclear attacks to get rid of as many pakistani missiles as you can while your ground forces go for the central command. Both sides nuclear warning systems and nuclear weapons are not very good and might be comparable to 60s russian and american early warning systems since in the 60s the russians and americans started building massive radar stations on their coast but now are controlled with space borne systems.
If say a extremist group took power in pakistan and threatened to nuke india overnight this would be the way i think it would work. And this was like the exact senario i was thinking about
ITS COLD START . Second time i had to correct someone over this
The whole basis of the cold start doctrime is to avoid pakistani nuclear attack and international reaction. While in the last three wars thought india was forced to back down by international reaction and other reasons. While in 1999 kargil war set the tone of this because the indians reacted slowly and when they finally did step in to do something international world attention was againest them. So in 2002 they started to or already developed how to win a a fast limited war striking only as far as it can without pakistani nuking them.
Since
a) The pakistani government has said that it will nuke india if it is about to lose the war or a large portion is being held or being in the process of being captured.
b) So world opinion would not go againest them if it is a short war. eg it could turn nuclear
c) Cold start does not call for general mobilization and is to be done in secret so the indians have full surprise advantage. Instead of say a month for general mobilization you have it in 1-2 days for your battle groups and attack the pakistanis which would mobilize in say a week.
So as their intial reaction to this new doctrime the indian army has moved to battle groups instead of strike corps(which you got confused with). The way indians use to fight a war with pakistan were with soviet style strike groups which would attack in force not nessary to win a engament with the enemy but hold terrioty until after the war so they had bargining chips after peace was settled. eg strike corps first then defensive crops scond. But as we saw in kargil this was not the case since any strike corps into pakistan would have been met with a nuclear reply. and the only way was to attack until your force was ready and let world opinoin build up againest you. The battle groups now are not to go in and hold terrioty but go in quickly engage pakistani forces and come out as quick as possible so nukes can be thrown.
How they do it is using the battle groups combined with airsupport and sea support to initially win the advantage with missile attacks (eg Yakhornt missiles and ballistic non-nuclear missiles) and long range artillery to take out command post communications while the battle groups spear head attacks on ground with airforce ground support. eg Mig-27s jaguars. And nearly all indian aircraft are now being turned into multi-roled craft. While think of this as a Blitzkrieg attack instead of a steam roller attack the indians were proposing before. In current contrast all major wars india had with pakistan they had a large conventional lead but were to slow to attack which lead to world opinion turning againest them and pakistan which would easily call in china or the US or both to calm this situation because before the war started you would have them calling for india to back down. But india attacks before the US or china have any time to react they dont have that much pressure. I think the time scale they will be on is something like 3 days to achieve their goals
What really is sticking out to me is india wont declare war when they attack. But anyway this would only work if it had the advantage of surprise. But the strange thing is they base this stratgery on what they pakistanis say they are going to do with nuclear weapons.
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But intially i was trying to relay to you that in a war where it wasn't going to be limited cold start combined with a indian ABM and indian nuclear attacks would be extremely effective in a war and would easily win the war with pakistan. Using indian nuclear attacks to get rid of as many pakistani missiles as you can while your ground forces go for the central command. Both sides nuclear warning systems and nuclear weapons are not very good and might be comparable to 60s russian and american early warning systems since in the 60s the russians and americans started building massive radar stations on their coast but now are controlled with space borne systems.
If say a extremist group took power in pakistan and threatened to nuke india overnight this would be the way i think it would work. And this was like the exact senario i was thinking about
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