Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"

ashblackhawk

Banned Member
srirangan said:
I never denied the capability. I'm glad you're happy.
What is surprising me is the timing of the test and speed with which the president announced its induction. I cannot think of a country who said that missile will be induced after atleast 10 trials unless it is previously tested and proven by some other countries ( i mean we can atleast believe capability of tomahawk because it has undergone many trials before getting induced into armed forced of US army) :coffee
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
ashblackhawk said:
What is surprising me is the timing of the test and speed with which the president announced its induction. I cannot think of a country who said that missile will be induced after atleast 10 trials unless it is previously tested and proven by some other countries ( i mean we can atleast believe capability of tomahawk because it has undergone many trials before getting induced into armed forced of US army) :coffee
Timing ? Speed ?

My friend...Pakistan has been trying to come up with this for 10+ years & why tried to inform India & indirectly we did. In the recent deal to inform each other before testing any Missile we had asked to include Cruisers in it but India had not agreed. India should have clearly taken a sign here that we are going to test a cruiser + government had already informed public that there is going to be a test of a Missile. Some coybow journalist assumed that its going to be a long range Missile & thats what have been descepting every one. Specialy you guys (Indians).

Pakistan wont test any long range missile untill India does which according to Jane's (India) defence should take place soon. It is speculated to have 3000+Km range.

No one has said any thing about induction. HATF VII is kind of Prototype but would be produced in some numbers (not so big) for Army & Navy. If you still havent got a hint, every one in Pakistan govt has said "first cruise missile" the word "FIRST" indicates more tests are coming of even superior versions.
I dont think the range would be increased at this moment but Superior or inferior its a danger.
 
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highsea

New Member
doggychow14 said:
On the contrary its lineage traces to the AS-15 and the Tomahawk which is why i believe the "babur" may have recieved various technical assitance alongside with the development of the DH-10.
doggychow, your link confirms what I was saying. The AS-15 is the same as the KH-55, you realize. From your article:
...Some sources call this LACM series "Hong Niao," though the most recent PLA LACM is referred to as the "Dong Hai," or DH-10.
IOW, the HN series is the same as the DH-10, like I said. The differences between the HN-1 and HN-2 are comparable to the differences between the KH-65 and KH-55. IOW, one has a smaller fuel tank, but they are derivatives of each other, and use most of the same components.

The article also details the acquisition of cruise missiles and technology from Russia and Ukraine, which I have already mentioned. The only comments wrt Tomahawks were that China was actively pursuing the technology, and had tried to buy parts from various crashed missiles. Nothing new there.

Now one can logically conclude that with the easy access to Russian technology (that was designed to mirror the capabilities of the Tomahawk), and (at best), only a small number of parts from crashed Tomahawks, that the missile will be much more heavily dependent and derivative of the Russian missile rather than the American one.

I have seen Tomahawks, both before and after crashes. I helped build the damn things. I can guarantee you there is not much that is salvageable or useful after one crashes.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Highsea I wrote some thing before but it went on the previous pages. It was the statement of the boy who saw the tomahawk's crash in Pakistan when US launched its attack on Afghanistan. I am reposting it here.

I dont think it was posted in any news or report but the PTV (state run TV) showed the interview of the boy who showed the Rangers where the Tomahawk had crashed. The boy said he was there when the rocket crashed. He has said that the Rocket 1st slowed down & than hit the ground started to slide on the surface & when it came to hault he went to inspect it. Later he had called ran to near by Rangers camp to inform them.

Looks like the Tomahawk actualy made a crash landing instead of just crashing.
Can Tomahawks make safe crash landing ? There must be an abort system in it.

(I am not suggesting that US Navy safe dropped Tomahawk in Pakistan on purpose, just asking for knowledge).
 

highsea

New Member
No. There is no provision for landing. I suppose a freak occurance could happen, like coming down in a snow covered field or something like that, but a typical crash would not leave much that is useful.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Here are some reports based on what the authorities & scientists/engineers have said about their Baby Babur.

Pakistan Test Fires Nuke-Capable Missile

By SADAQAT JAN
.c The Associated Press

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Pakistan on Thursday test fired its first cruise missile, a weapon that can carry nuclear and conventional warheads, a test it conducted without notifying archrival India, officials said.

The missile, named Babur, has a range of 310 miles (500km). The launch site was not disclosed.

The Foreign Ministry said Pakistan did not inform India, as an agreement formalized between the two countries over the weekend on pre-notification of missile tests does not cover cruise missiles.

There was no immediate reaction from India.

Cruise missiles are typically low-flying guided missiles that use jet propulsion to allow sustained flight.

The military statement said the Babur missile flies parallel to the surface of the ground, can hit its target with ``pinpoint accuracy'' and can be fired from war ships, submarines and Air Crafts.

"The technology enables the missile to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defensive system,'' it said.

Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Shaukat Sultan said Pakistan has joined the few countries ``that can design and make cruise missiles.''

The missile test agreement is part of confidence-building in a peace process between the South Asian rivals, which have fought three wars since independence from Britain in 1947. They also agreed at the weekend to set up a hot line next month to help prevent accidental nuclear conflict.​


In another Report based on what has been said so far by authorities.

By Robert Birsel
Thu Aug 11, 5:37 PM ET

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan successfully tested its first nuclear-capable, ground-launched cruise missile on Thursday without informing rival India in advance, a Pakistani military spokesman said.

Nuclear-armed rivals Pakistan and India reached an agreement last week to inform each other about missile tests but the spokesman, Major-General Shaukut Sultan, said India was not told about the test because the new Babur missile is not a ballistic missile.

"We don't have to inform neighboring countries in this case. It is not a ballistic missile and it doesn't fall under the agreement," he said.

The Babur, which has a range of 500 km (310 miles), is a terrain-hugging missile that can avoid radar detection and strike with pinpoint accuracy, the military said.

"By conducting the successful test, Pakistan has joined a select group of countries which have the capability to design and develop cruise missiles," the military said in a statement.

Pakistan and India tested nuclear weapons in 1998.

President Pervez Musharraf hailed the test as a milestone in Pakistan's quest to strengthen and consolidate its strategic capability and said it improved the military balance with India.

The United States said it was not concerned about the test. A State Department spokesman said it was not a surprise, but did not elaborate.

"It's important to us that actions by states on the subcontinent are done in ways that aren't provocative, in ways that aren't threatening. I think that by all accounts the test met that criteria," State Department spokesman Adam Ereli told reporters.

'VERY SIGNIFICANT'

Pakistan's desire to develop cruise missile capabilities has been known for several years, said Robert Karniol, Asia-Pacific editor for Jane's Defense Weekly.

While the Babur's payload capacity -- and the weight of Pakistan's nuclear weapons -- were not known, cruise missiles would be a significant boost to Pakistan's arsenal, he said.

"These kinds of capabilities, particularly the submarine-launched missile, are very significant strike weapons," he said.

"We can expect that some time in the future they will turn their attention to developing a submarine-launched system."

Pakistan has eight operating submarines, including two Agosta 90-Bs built with French help, a navy spokesman said.

India already has submarine-launched cruise missiles.

Musharraf said the Babur, with its 500-km (310-mile) range, was superior to the Indian Brahmos cruise missile, which has a range of 290 km (180 miles).

Pakistan would maintain a military balance with India even if India acquired high-technology U.S. weapons such as the Patriot missile system, he said.

"There was talk of India getting Patriot missiles and there was a feeling that there was an imbalance which is being created because of the purchase of very advanced technology weapons," he told reporters.

"Let me say this improves the balance. Whatever balance existed, it further improves the balance. So that is the significance of the Babur missile that we fired," he said.
Both reports say that Pakistan is now part of selected countries which have technology for Cruise Missile.

Whats the list? which are other countries?

1. USA
2. Pakistan
3. Russia
4. India
5. China

& ......​
 

Salman78

New Member
BilalK said:
Doesn't "several" usually mean like two or three, but not many?
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=several

Anyways, congratulations to Pakistan in actually gaining this capability, no matter how unadvanced or advanced it is, I think now Pakistan can use it as a basis to develop future missiles.
yes... and to sell it to Saudi's for 5 times its procurement price with a reduced range of 295km :D (MTCR sucks)
 

Salman78

New Member
SABRE said:
Timing ? Speed ?

I dont think the range would be increased at this moment but Superior or inferior its a danger.
If the scientists and engineers working on BABUR project can increase its range then why would'nt they ? Ofcourse they would. For that matter, anyone would love to increase the range of their weapon. Makes no sense :coffee
 

mysterious

New Member
I'd say, for now, the scientists would be quite satisfied with the range as it is more than that of Brahmos while being more interested in increasing its speed to make it more lethal and checking other parameters by conducting more tests to validate them.

The other thing that would be looked in to is miniaturizing a non-conventional warhead so that its able to be mounted on Babur - unless of course its already under way. Such R & D and related issues are hardly ever discussed outside confidential meetings and top secret areas I presume.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Salman78 said:
If the scientists and engineers working on BABUR project can increase its range then why would'nt they ? Ofcourse they would. For that matter, anyone would love to increase the range of their weapon. Makes no sense :coffee
I dont think HATF VII's range would be increase. The verient will be their as it is. The next version (lets say BABUR II) may have increased range but HATF VII's range will remain the same. Pakistan has modified alot of its previous missiles & have retested them but its only the next version whichs Range is increased.

All missiles are technologicaly modified from time to time. When Pakistan is ready with its super sonic technology for cruisers than HATF VII might get super sonic but like its big brothers (Nuke Missiles: Ghuri, Shaheen, Ghaznavi etc) its range might stay the same.

yes... and to sell it to Saudi's for 5 times its procurement price with a reduced range of 295km :D (MTCR sucks)
Not a chance. :D

I'd say, for now, the scientists would be quite satisfied with the range as it is more than that of Brahmos while being more interested in increasing its speed to make it more lethal and checking other parameters by conducting more tests to validate them.
I was discussing Babur with my friend who had studies in Cadit College. He had made good friends in navy. He told me that their is a talk going around (in military I pressume) that the project was actualy navy's demand initialy & the admiral of PNS Baber was the lead of it. The range was decided by him 9 years ago (250+km) when the missile was precticaly under development after 2 years of planning (this indicates that it took Pakistan 11 years to come out with this). I dont think he at that moment had Brahmoos on his mind. If he had he would have pushed for super sonic speed.

The name Babur comes from PNS Baber which was suppose to be its 1st carrier. I think Baber has retired now (I think).

Anyways this is a roumer, no credibility here. I never count info from friends as news & reports.

Yes myst Pakistan should be more interested in speed now. I think they dint want to pursue speed before seeing the Cruisers working. They still have to see it being launched from the sea & air. I wounder what Air Craft will carry it. May be C-130 & since US is saying its not alarming I think they wont mind us modifying the C-130 for it.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
There may be plans to deploy ALCM on P3-C Orions.

There are reports that Pakistan wanted to include the Cruise Missile test notification in the agreement but India declined. Either they did not want to notify when testing Brahmos or they never imagined Pakistan testing a cruise missile.
 

doggychow14

New Member
IOW, the HN series is the same as the DH-10, like I said. The differences between the HN-1 and HN-2 are comparable to the differences between the KH-65 and KH-55. IOW, one has a smaller fuel tank, but they are derivatives of each other, and use most of the same components.
Sorry i didn't look into it closely enough. However the the lineage goes as far as the booster. I doubt the guidance would be similar due to the CEP of the DH-10 is estimated to be ~10 meters compared to 150 meters of the AS-15 .
 

mysterious

New Member
To clarify matters...

India tested BrahMos 10 times without notifying Pakistan: ISPR

* India had rejected including cruise missiles in pact: ISPR

ISLAMABAD: Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) chief Maj Gen Shaukat Sultan said on Friday that Pakistan had proposed including cruise missile tests in the memorandum of understanding (MoU) on the pre-notification of missile tests, but the Indians had rejected it.

The MoU was signed between India and Pakistan in 1999 and according to a recently reached agreement both countries are not obliged to inform each other before testing cruise missiles.

Ironically enough, the Indian media – despite the fact that the Indians had experimented the BrahMos cruise missile 10 times without informing Pakistan – raised such objections, Gen Sultan added. Pakistan would continue pursuing its minimum deterrence policy without entering an arms race in the region, he said, adding, “Minimum deterrence is the cornerstone and an important ingredient of our national security.â€

As long as deterrence existed, balance of power would exist and nobody would be able to be aggressive to Pakistan, he added.

It was important to establish balance of power in the region to maintain peace, he said, adding that otherwise the weaker party would always remain under threat by the powerful one.

He said Pakistan tested its nuclear capability in 1998 because the Indian initiative disturbed the balance of power in the region.

He said the Indians were thinking about acquiring certain weapons systems including the Israeli-made Arrow system and US made PAC-2 and PAC-3 systems.

There was a general perception at home that if the Indians got these weapons systems, they would be able to tilt the balance of power in their favour, he said, adding that the perception was true to some extent.

He said Pakistani scientists were working hard to balance the situation and had succeeded.

The successful test of the Hatf-VII Babur cruise missile was a major boost to Pakistan’s deterrence and as stated by President Pervez Musharraf was a quantum leap in Pakistan’s defence capability, the general said. The missile’s exclusive characteristics were that it could fly at low altitude and could not be detected by radar, he said, adding that it had the ability to penetrate anti-ballistic systems such as the Arrow, Patriot and others.

He said Pakistan had no evil intentions against any county. “We favour a maximum number of confidence-building measures with India because it is better for peace in the region,†he added. APP

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_13-8-2005_pg7_49
 

highsea

New Member
doggychow14 said:
...I doubt the guidance would be similar due to the CEP of the DH-10 is estimated to be ~10 meters compared to 150 meters of the AS-15 .
That's due to the INS/GPS integration on the DH-10 (see the Jane's article). The KH-55/65 didn't use GPS. That's basically an off-the-shelf modification, and the accuracy will be dependent on SA, which is under US control.
 

adsH

New Member
mysterious said:
The missile’s exclusive characteristics were that it could fly at low altitude and could not be detected by radar, he said, adding that it had the ability to penetrate anti-ballistic systems such as the Arrow, Patriot and others.

Guys could we just look at that statement, hasn't this problem been largely resolved with the introduction of ground based Phased Array Radar systems with overlapped AWACS. Doesn't a low flying object use the natural terrain as a shield against the Radar Photons and exploit the Angles the photons are fired at ie the space beyond and Above & below the Azimuth and Altitude scope
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Hello,

You guys are amazing. Next time you go to an auto mall and take a look at different makes of automobiles. Each one of them is significantly different than the others. The german make their cars different than the americans do and the japanese are different in their approach as well. Same with the weapons as well. Ak 47 is different than what the americans make the M16, M14, M1. And the germans have their H&k, they may fire the same bullet, but their engineering design are different.

Americans make very poor quality small diesel engines, the japanese excel at smallet diesel engines----in heavy equipment american diesels are the best for the money. German engineering has very tight tolerances and the vehicles drive very solid----american vehicles have loose tolerances---they don't ride solid. Engineering and engineering designs are what is in the mind of the nation---the people who designed it. Engineering marvels, architectual designs of a nation will tell you the mindset of the nation.

Now go to the frontier region of pakistan in NWFP-----Wallah------out of nowhere, in the mountains is a weapons industry flourishing for hundreds of years like no place else in the world.

We are only created equal as human beings-----but not created equal as to our abilities in all the fields.
 
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