Pakistan test its first cruise missile "BABUR"

[adsH]

And the missile is supposed to access the info from civilian sats and analyze the ahead of it in real time? Very unlikely. Wouldn't you need a committed Guidence System rather than Commecial Satelites? That's assuming even if these satelites let cruise missile systems access their info.

No your not getting what i'm trying to say in Telemantics You Retrieve the Data Analyse it (In Labs) Produce maps and then Upload it to a Guidance computer. Which the MIssile would then use in real time. Subsequent updates can be Administered durng upgrades in patches. I don't have time to go into details. BUt the Maps are produced before the flight the Guidance system just navigates through the map.


People don't acknowledge the fact that Pakistan is one of the very few countries now that has this capability, and Developing an AI guidance system to equip a Cruise missile is no easy task. Its not simply the matter of Copying AI algorithms from other Cruise missiles. these Systems are created so no one can tamper with them. I doubt China would give away too much on this tech since this is potentially a dangerous cpability it has Sub launch, sea skimming/ terrain following and now Nuke capabilities.


I'm with Highsea here, abit of specs would be appreciated. I Doubt they would be forth comming here, since this weapon is strategically too important for pakistan.

 

[pshamim]

Looking at different pictures, Babar is not even close to the HN-1. It looks more like the Tomahawk.

 

[srirangan]

Looking at different pictures, Babar is not even close to the HN-1. It looks more like the Tomahawk.

Exactly. Those were my first thoughts too.

 

[srirangan]

No your not getting what i'm trying to say in Telemantics You Retrieve the Data Analyse it (In Labs) Produce maps and then Upload it to a Guidance computer. Which the MIssile would then use in real time. Subsequent updates can be Administered durng upgrades in patches. I don't have time to go into details. BUt the Maps are produced before the flight the Guidance system just navigates through the map.

I don't think imagery from commercial satellites would be accurate enough for terrain mapping. Why do countries otherwise invest so much in higher resolution spy satellites? Sorry, I can't buy the argument that commercial civilian satellites is being used by the Pakistani military establishemnt for applications that require multiple high resolution solutions.

People don't acknowledge the fact that Pakistan is one of the very few countries now that has this capability, and Developing an AI guidance system to equip a Cruise missile is no easy task. Its not simply the matter of Copying AI algorithms from other Cruise missiles. these Systems are created so no one can tamper with them. I doubt China would give away too much on this tech since this is potentially a dangerous cpability it has Sub launch, sea skimming/ terrain following and now Nuke capabilities.

I would doubt the very claim at all that this missile is smart guided. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Pakistan has no high altitude spy planes, leave alone high resolution satellites for imagery purposes.

2) This is the first cruise missile that has come outof Pakistan, apparently claimed to be without outside help. Then how can they muster up the technology that took others more than 3 decades.

 

[mysterious]

Well as for me, I'm quite confused as to which one is Babur a derivative of. If it is a HN-1 or a degraded Tomahawk, only time will tell as we start getting more info out from concerned circles. But I should add that while hearing news on the BBC, I saw that they showed the video of both the Babur and a Tomahawk; both looking very similar in flight pattern and moment of launch, IMHO.

It could very well be a HN-1 as I lack the 'technical' expertise required to tell them apart and go in to further details.

 

[srirangan]

Well as for me, I'm quite confused as to which one is Babur a derivative of. If it is a HN-1 or a degraded Tomahawk, only time will tell as we start getting more info out from concerned circles. But I should add that while hearing news on the BBC, I saw that they showed the video of both the Babur and a Tomahawk; both looking very similar in flight pattern and moment of launch, IMHO.

It could very well be a HN-1 as I lack the 'technical' expertise required to tell them apart and go in to further details.

I agree. It most certainly isn't the KA-55/HN-1 variant. The fins and the tube are classic retro Tomahawk'ish. It could very well be based on the 1998 missile recovered from Afghanistan.

 

[pshamim]

I would doubt the very claim at all that this missile is smart guided. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Pakistan has no high altitude spy planes, leave alone high resolution satellites for imagery purposes.

2) This is the first cruise missile that has come outof Pakistan, apparently claimed to be without outside help. Then how can they muster up the technology that took others more than 3 decades.

Sorry Sri, I disagree. Pakistan has injected couple of satellites into space, last being in year 2000. The stated and advertised purpose was Earth Imaging but does not mean that it was limited to that role. I hear that starting now, Pakistan will be sending more satellites into space as per a statement from Pres. Musharraf.

It is also said that China has the mapping data on India, and that can always be stored in the guidance system of this missile.

I guess we need to begin to change our attitudes and thinking when it comes to Pakistan. If one country takes twenty years to develop something, does not mean, that others must take same time.

We have constantly tried to belittle and discount its achievements. Problem is not with Pakistan but its achievments that have shot ahead of our limited thinking. And I feel the source of our disbeliefs.

 

[adsH]

I don't think imagery from commercial satellites would be accurate enough for terrain mapping. Why do countries otherwise invest so much in higher resolution spy satellites? Sorry, I can't buy the argument that commercial civilian satellites is being used by the Pakistani military establishemnt for applications that require multiple high resolution solutions.



I would doubt the very claim at all that this missile is smart guided. Why? Here's my reasons:

1) Pakistan has no high altitude spy planes, leave alone high resolution satellites for imagery purposes.

2) This is the first cruise missile that has come outof Pakistan, apparently claimed to be without outside help. Then how can they muster up the technology that took others more than 3 decades.

The Comercial Sats can deliver very good pictures, its ultimately the Telmantic specialists who end up enhncing the pictures you can do allot with poor SAR imigery, and trust me you don't need nm mm Pricision for detecting terain mountins Building etc. they are pritty much obvious. Pakistan has Its own Weather Sat Satlites i'm not sure if they are very capable. but ultimately its the Telemantic specialists who deal with Imigery enhncement, Trust me i know My friend are baseing there doctorate Projects on it, at my university (One of the Best places in UK for telementics). I have worked on several ENVI packages but most of my work has been Space based rather then terrain analysis. Our professor is a leading researcher from NASA

 

[srirangan]

Sorry Sri, I disagree. Pakistan has injected couple of satellites into space with , last being in year 2000. The stated purpose was Earth Imaging but does not mean that it was limited to that role. I hear that starting now, Pakistan will be sending more satellites into space as per a statement from Pres. Musharraf.

Sir,

Does Pakistan have a military spy satellite? No. Does Pakistan have high altitude spy planes? No. Statements by politicians come and go, and Pakistan in the future may put to orbit a satellite that's capable enough of high res images, but that doesn't mean that Pakistan today has that capability.

As far as Musharraf's statement, I highly doubt that Pakistan would design a cruise missile first and the guidence system later in a future date.

It is also said that China has the mapping data on India, and that can always be stored in the guidance system of this missile.

Links? Sources? Didn't China approach Israel for help with a high res imaging satellite in the 90's? Wasn't China refused by the Israel? India otoh already has hi res imaging satellites, thus the MiG 25's were retired. And a high res spy satellite program is being worked by India and Israel jointly today. Link to confirm both these claims:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ary-satellite-reconnaissance-system/index.php

I guess we need to begin to change our attitudes and thinking when it comes to Pakistan. If one country takes twenty years to develop something, does not mean, that others must take same time.

Sir,

With all due respect, your sarcasm wasn't all that smartly camoflagued. Fact: Every developement has a cycle. Pak can't just sit up one day and say "we want to design the most hi tech smart guided, ground breathing, fire and forget cruise missile". They'll have to start from a regular cruise missile and then build on that.

Same applies to Pakistani satellites too. Every country that has genuinely R&D'ed has gone through the long developement duration including the very best in Russia, Germany and the United States.

 

[srirangan]

The Comercial Sats can deliver very good pictures, its ultimately the Telmantic specialists who end up enhncing the pictures you can do allot with poor SAR imigery, and trust me you don't need nm mm Pricision for detecting terain mountins Building etc. they are pritty much obvious. Pakistan has Its own Weather Sat Satlites i'm not sure if they are very capable. but ultimately its the Telemantic specialists who deal with Imigery enhncement, Trust me i know My friend are baseing there doctorate Projects on it, at my university (One of the Best places in UK for telementics). I have worked on several ENVI packages but most of my work has been Space based rather then terrain analysis. Our professor is a leading researcher from NASA

Yes. And all other countries are fools to put up spy satellites.

PS: I can't argue the same point over and again mate.

 

[adsH]

Sorry Sri, I disagree. Pakistan has injected couple of satellites into space, last being in year 2000. The stated and advertised purpose was Earth Imaging but does not mean that it was limited to that role. I hear that starting now, Pakistan will be sending more satellites into space as per a statement from Pres. Musharraf.

It is also said that China has the mapping data on India, and that can always be stored in the guidance system of this missile.

I guess we need to begin to change our attitudes and thinking when it comes to Pakistan. If one country takes twenty years to develop something, does not mean, that others must take same time.

We have constantly tried to belittle and discount its achievements. Problem is not with Pakistan but its achievments that have shot ahead of our limited thinking. And I feel the source of our disbeliefs.

pshamim i agree with you, People will pick out hairs out anything, but what they have to understand is that Technology is at a stage which has never been at. I mean you can now design a product in Hours on a CAD packge test it and send it off to production wich took weeks or months. Software tools to develop codeing are at a level never seen before, you can build just about anything if you can think it you can build it!! Thats what i believe.

 

[adsH]

Yes. And all other countries are fools to put up spy satellites.

PS: I can't argue the same point over and again mate.

Ahh sri your doing it again your being repetitive when you don't have the knowledge, Don't force my hand, Don't push it. i will have to start mod'ing(Sri specific) here. Infact i'l get one of the guys to do it. (if they would be so kind).


Just for your knowledge Spy Sats are Telemantic/ Weather Sats. They are just designated a differnt name. Who do you think builds them?

YOur trying to PUnch your way through but you fail to realize there are others here who have more experience with these techs

 

[Salman78]

Interesting observation Highsea. HN-1 has a 320 mile range. Babur's claimed 500 km is pretty close to that number.

The range isn't the worry though, but I find the ground hugging claims to be a bit far fetched. When did Pakistan become capable of reading and analyzing terrains, let alone apply this technology?

Now I'm not making any claims, just asking questions. Does anyone have the answers regarding this?

Anyhow I'm uploading some of the pics that I find regarding the Babur test.

All you need is a radar altimeter and topographic information to use terrain comparison (TERCOM) guidance which is no biggie. 'Pakistan' does not read or analyise terrains.. the missile matches some reference points in its mapped database.

my brother-in-law is a senior aeronautical engineer in pakistan airforce. he was sent to US by PAF to do his Masters in SAR (synthetic apperture radar / ground mapping radars ) and that was almost 10 years ago... get the picture ??

GPS is cheapest and most accurate guidance tech available.

ofcourse then there is INS navigation which is pretty much free-for-all and easy tech to master.



range IS a big issue.. put it on pakistan's borders and see how far it can reach.

a big bulbous nose can carry bigger sensors then those of brahmos which has a thin cone surrounded by air intakes. speed is the only advantage it has now.

 

[highsea]

Pretty obvious that the MTCR guidelines weren't implemented. That restricts the range to be below 300 kms.

Yeah, you're right, I was thinking miles, not km's. Lol, that's what I get for being in a hurry.

 

[Hussain]

The launcher for the cruise missile appears to be rather interesting. Similar to the short range Pakistani missiles (Hatf 1).

Is this manner that other nations launch their cruise missiles or is there a particular reason why such an erector has been used for Pakistan's cruise missile?

 

[highsea]

Looking at different pictures, Babar is not even close to the HN-1. It looks more like the Tomahawk.

Do you have some better pictures pshamin? Here is a recent picture of an HN. Size wise, they are similar to Tomahawks, but the booster configuration is different, and the tailfins also. On the Babur picture, I cannot see an underbelly intake like the tomahawk has. It you look closely in the pic I attached, you can see what looks like a similar inline booster like the Babur uses.

The HN-1 was reportedly developed from a KH-65, which was an export version of the KH-55, shorter range and slightly smaller. The second pic here is the KH-55 with the tail surfaces folded.

 

[pshamim]

Do you have some better pictures pshamin? Here is a recent picture of an HN. Size wise, they are similar to Tomahawks, but the booster configuration is different, and the tailfins also. On the Babur picture, I cannot see an underbelly intake like the tomahawk has. It you look closely in the pic I attached, you can see what looks like a similar inline booster like the Babur uses.

The HN-1 was reportedly developed from a KH-65, which was an export version of the KH-55, shorter range and slightly smaller. The second pic here is the KH-55 with the tail surfaces folded.

Check the launch as well as the animation videos courtesy Usman Shabbir of Pakdef. http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=b04

Test Video: http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=babar-animation

 

[highsea]

Well, they are all very similar. I don't think we have enough information to really draw a conclusion. Given the relationship between Pakistan and China, I still have to lean that direction wrt the dev and tech.

 

[doggychow14]

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/zy.htm

China's military has deployed a new reconnaissance satellite that is being used to target U.S. forces in the region, according to U.S. intelligence officials

The satellite is Beijing's first high-resolution imaging satellite and is disguised as a civilian earth monitoring system, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

The satellite secretly has been designated as the Jianbing-3, officials said. Its public name is Ziyuan-2 (ZY-2). Ziyuan means "resource."

http://taiwansecurity.org/News/2001/WT-080101.htm

Pakistans new "babur" may not have recieved help from the hn-1, but it my have recieved lineage from the DH-10.

 

[webmaster]

Here is some info on above mentioned DH-10

China tests new land-attack cruise missile

By Wendell Minnick

China has test-fired a new land attack cruise missile (LACM) designated Dong Hai-10 (DH-10), or East China Sea-10.

A US defence source identified the DH-10 as a ground-launched second-generation LACM with a range of more than 1,500km. He said it is likely to be equipped with an integrated inertial navigation system/Global Positioning System, supplemented by a terrain contour mapping system and digital scene-matching terminal-homing system able to provide a circular error probable (CEP) of 10m.

China is also expected to field a second LACM within the next few years. The Ying Ji-63 (YJ-63), or Strike Eagle-63, is described by the source as a first-generation LACM with a range of 400-500km and the ability to carry a 500kg high explosive warhead at a speed of Mach 0.68. The missile is believed to be fitted with combined inertial and GPS mid-course guidance, plus some form of electro-optical terminal guidance. The latter is expected to provide a CEP of 10-15m, but it will probably be limited by weather. If it is a TV homing system rather than an autonomous scene-matching sensor, this will require a line-of-sight communications link with the launch aircraft or another platform.

The US source further pointed out that Harpy unmanned aerial vehicles obtained by China from Israel in 2001 are now operational.

These three sophisticated weapons pose new challenges to Taiwan, which has been engaged in extended debate over the ballistic missile threat from China. "Taiwan has not met the growing LACM threat head on," the source complained.

http://www.janes.com/defence/news/jmr/jmr040921_1_n.shtml