Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

[BilalK]

Seems like an RFP has been released for the future-FFG and the PN is again on the hunt for 4-8 used FFGs for a 5-10 year term.
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Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008

Jane's Defence Weekly

Pakistan continues hunt for interim frigates

Richard Scott Jane's Naval Consultant
London

 

[Sea Toby]

I can see the British selling either their Type 22s or Type 42s, the Italians selling some of their Maestrales, or the French selling some of their Georges Leygues. I do not think Pakistan will be interested buying any OH Perrys which will be available. I don't think Pakistan wants to repeat the Garcia and Brooke class mistake again.

Why don't Pakistan buy some more new Chinese frigates? When will the first four be delivered?

 

[tphuang]

I can see the British selling either their Type 22s or Type 42s, the Italians selling some of their Maestrales, or the French selling some of their Georges Leygues. I do not think Pakistan will be interested buying any OH Perrys which will be available. I don't think Pakistan wants to repeat the Garcia and Brooke class mistake again.

Why don't Pakistan buy some more new Chinese frigates? When will the first four be delivered?

The F-22Ps are under construction right now and it looks pretty clear that they will get 054A when it becomes available, but that will come later. In the mean time, getting some second hand frigates is not a bad idea.

 

[harryriedl]

The F-22Ps are under construction right now and it looks pretty clear that they will get 054A when it becomes available, but that will come later. In the mean time, getting some second hand frigates is not a bad idea.

its just a problem that theres a dearth of used ships on the market and will be that way for a few years

 

[BilalK]

The following bit of news was posted a year ago:
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"Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir - Chief of the Naval Staff, Pakistan Navy
Pakistan has asked the US to supply it with six Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates to augment its fleet of surface ships, the chief of Pakistan's naval staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir has revealed to Jane's.Meanwhile, Pakistan is seeking to progress the delivery of four Chinese Type F-22P or 'Jiangwei II' (Type-053H3) frigates ordered in April 2005, and to decide on the purchase of another four frigates of a still-undefined type, he says.
[Jane's Navy International - first posted to http://jni.janes.com - 22 March 2007]"
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Then in April 2007 a USN officer said:
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Responding to a question, he said Pakistan had requested to obtain used US naval gunships and frigates which were not currently available. At least for two years, these gunships and frigates could not be provided to Pakistan, he added.

“But this is our priority that as soon as these ships and frigates are available, they will be given to Pakistan,” he said.
http://www.dawn.com/2007/04/17/top8.htm
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I think the PN may be still inclined towards OHP, and if available in perhaps 2009 - they will probably go for it. I just wonder what will arm them? Perhaps RAM & 2x4 Harpoon Block II?

 

[Sea Toby]

Pakistan would be joining a large pool of navies sharing the left over SM-1 missile inventory. I would think Pakistan would be better off buying either the British Type 42s and their leftover inventory of Sea Dart missiles, or the Italian and/or French ships I mentioned above and not share a limited number of SM-1s.

 

[orko_8]

Pakistan would be joining a large pool of navies sharing the left over SM-1 missile inventory. I would think Pakistan would be better off buying either the British Type 42s and their leftover inventory of Sea Dart missiles, or the Italian and/or French ships I mentioned above and not share a limited number of SM-1s.

Maybe another possible scenario would be letting Israel co-develop a longer range ship based AAW missile with India and sell Pakistan SM-2's? Just thinking out loud.

 

[BilalK]

Maybe another possible scenario would be letting Israel co-develop a longer range ship based AAW missile with India and sell Pakistan SM-2's? Just thinking out loud.

Pakistan is a lot likelier to set up a joint-venture for long & medium-range naval SAMs than buy SM-2 - I even doubt PN will get RAM and ESSM. Thus far I think the medium-range SAM possibility is between FM400 with Aster-15 vs. Type-054A with HH-16. IMO whoever it goes with at that stage will likely continue into long-range as well.

Another possibility is that Pakistan may try to work to develop its own medium-range SAM. Basically try to use something like VL-MICA or a recent BVRAAM; then work on its booster, guidance, data-link, etc...into a multi-use MR-SAM. Then take that experience and pull off a local initiative using an existing LR-SAM.

 

[BilalK]

I wonder if PN would be able to get the 3 Nakhoda Class OPV/corvettes from Brunei at a reasonable cost? From the sounds of it, the U.S. may indeed transfer a number of OHPs to PN as well...but not before 2009. Would be great U.S. releases ESSM & RAM as well.

 

[harryriedl]

I wonder if PN would be able to get the 3 Nakhoda Class OPV/corvettes from Brunei at a reasonable cost? From the sounds of it, the U.S. may indeed transfer a number of OHPs to PN as well...but not before 2009. Would be great U.S. releases ESSM & RAM as well.

im imaging that unless a somthing happens with the LCS the US might be less keen transfer OHP to anywon as that would be there only low end patrol vessel [in the USN]

 

[Sea Toby]

Between the two different ships of the LCS, and the NSC of the Coast Guard, the US Navy and Congress has 3 different ships to choose from. Surely, some 50 of one of those classes will be built eventually. Depending upon who wins the Presidential election, the Zumwalt cass destroyers may end with only two ships. If the Zumwalts end at two, many of the LCS will be built with their cost overuns absorbed by not building more Zumwalts.

 

[kato]

If the Zumwalts end at two, many of the LCS will be built with their cost overuns absorbed by not building more Zumwalts.

Not necessarily. CBO has outlined multiple options for the US Navy depending on priorities. Only one of the eight options actually has 55 LCS being built, and that's the one that goes for sheer numbers.

As for the OHP, the US Navy barely manages to get rid of them already it seems. No one except Pakistan, Poland and a couple African nations seem to want them anymore, in particular the couple "cold" pre-1980 short-hull models still left.

BilalK:
ESSM maybe, but RAM would need export approval from Germany as well. Which is a bit more problematic with Pakistan.

 

[BilalK]

BilalK:
ESSM maybe, but RAM would need export approval from Germany as well. Which is a bit more problematic with Pakistan.

Pakistan is in negotiations with Germany for 3 Type-214 SSKs for 1.3 Euros.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=afIZUCvpeS2A&refer=india

I think that Blohm+Vloss/ThyssenKrup may submit a proposal in response to the Pakistan Navy's recently released RFP for new frigates.

 

[contedicavour]

Pakistan is in negotiations with Germany for 3 Type-214 SSKs for 1.3 Euros.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=afIZUCvpeS2A&refer=india

I think that Blohm+Vloss/ThyssenKrup may submit a proposal in response to the Pakistan Navy's recently released RFP for new frigates.

Strange... the PN already has Agosta and Agosta90 and instead of taking care of its decrepit surface fleet is buying a new class of SSKs ?

With 1.3 bn euros they should get 3 FREMMs ...

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Strange... the PN already has Agosta and Agosta90 and instead of taking care of its decrepit surface fleet is buying a new class of SSKs ?

With 1.3 bn euros they should get 3 FREMMs ...

cheers

seems quite common in smaller navy's spending on SSK rather than surface ships: Brazil,Pakistan are two example which come to mind but i can see Pakistan's appeal with subs because apart from the RN there sub has been the only to sink a ship post WW2

 

[contedicavour]

seems quite common in smaller navy's spending on SSK rather than surface ships: Brazil,Pakistan are two example which come to mind but i can see Pakistan's appeal with subs because apart from the RN there sub has been the only to sink a ship post WW2

Well not really, think of the Egyptian FAC(m)s sinking the Israeli destroyer escort, or the Allied helos sinking Iraqi ships in the 1991 war.
To the best of my knowledge, the only SSK sinking a surface ship since WW2 is the RN SSN who blew up the Argentinian cruiser Belgrano, admittedly a simple target with no ASW protection.
Last but not least, you can't really patrol the coastal waters using SSKs (unless you plan to torpedo sailing boats or speedboats doing drugs smuggling for example). For "showing the flag" purposes SSKs are also not ideal (they should remain hidden for their own sake)

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Well not really, think of the Egyptian FAC(m)s sinking the Israeli destroyer escort, or the Allied helos sinking Iraqi ships in the 1991 war.
To the best of my knowledge, the only SSK sinking a surface ship since WW2 is the RN SSN who blew up the Argentinian cruiser Belgrano, admittedly a simple target with no ASW protection.
Last but not least, you can't really patrol the coastal waters using SSKs (unless you plan to torpedo sailing boats or speedboats doing drugs smuggling for example). For "showing the flag" purposes SSKs are also not ideal (they should remain hidden for their own sake)

cheers

it was the indo-pak war of 1971 in which PNS Hangor sunk INS Khukri which apart from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Hangor Conquerer was the only other submarine post war to sink another vessel thats why i think Pakistan is focused on its sub-surface fleet

sorry for not making that clear

 

[contedicavour]

it was the indo-pak war of 1971 in which PNS Hangor sunk INS Khukri which apart from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNS_Hangor Conquerer was the only other submarine post war to sink another vessel thats why i think Pakistan is focused on its sub-surface fleet

sorry for not making that clear

You are right, I had forgotten that 1971 sinking ! Thank you for reminding me of that.
If the PN focuses so much on SSKs (5 Agosta/Agosta90 and 3 U214) then I wonder what strategy it would adopt in case of conflict with India. Would it send its SSKs to try to hunt Indian ships coming out of the harbours ? Would it keep all its SSKs close to shore to attack any Indian ship coming too close to Karachi ?
Anyway this strategy seems a bit flawed to me, as for any scenario other than a war with India, Pakistan needs a sufficient number of surface fleet ships for patrol.

cheers

 

[BilalK]

Well even after ordering the Type-214s, it will take roughly a decade for the PN to have all 3 in service...and they will probably replace the Agosta-70s. To supplement them the PN would also have 4 new FFGs, 4 new corvettes, 4 F-22P and some 12 FACs like MRTP-33.

 

[contedicavour]

Well even after ordering the Type-214s, it will take roughly a decade for the PN to have all 3 in service...and they will probably replace the Agosta-70s. To supplement them the PN would also have 4 new FFGs, 4 new corvettes, 4 F-22P and some 12 FACs like MRTP-33.

I understand the corvettes would be Milgem, but what about those 4 FFGs you mention ? Is there any budget allocated ? I'd be surprised if they were really "new" FFGs...

cheers