Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

BilalK

New Member
I understand the corvettes would be Milgem, but what about those 4 FFGs you mention ? Is there any budget allocated ? I'd be surprised if they were really "new" FFGs...

cheers
The Chief of Naval Staff said PN just released an RFP for a new class of FFGs to a number of shipyards. First phase is for 4 FFGs within the AFFDP-2019 plan, and possibility of a second phase for 4 more. To hold the line until those frigates are inducted, the PN wants 4-8 second hand frigates - it requested 6 OHPs last year.

PN might also be interested in the Nakhoda Class/F2000 "OPVs". If it procured them, then I suspect the MILGEM to be armed along similar lines in the future.
 

contedicavour

New Member
The Chief of Naval Staff said PN just released an RFP for a new class of FFGs to a number of shipyards. First phase is for 4 FFGs within the AFFDP-2019 plan, and possibility of a second phase for 4 more. To hold the line until those frigates are inducted, the PN wants 4-8 second hand frigates - it requested 6 OHPs last year.

PN might also be interested in the Nakhoda Class/F2000 "OPVs". If it procured them, then I suspect the MILGEM to be armed along similar lines in the future.
Okay thanks, with this perspective I'm less astonished by the U214 deal. I'm only wondering how much budget they plan to put on these 4 FFGs though, as if they are FREMM level they'll cost 1.6 bn euro...

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
Okay thanks, with this perspective I'm less astonished by the U214 deal. I'm only wondering how much budget they plan to put on these 4 FFGs though, as if they are FREMM level they'll cost 1.6 bn euro...

cheers
From what I heard the Navy and Air Force are on the forefront for funds in the Armed Forces Future Development Program-2019 (AFFDP-2019). I think the PN is looking for something in the 3500-4500 ton range with regards to FFG. So I guess something like TKMS MEKO Delta and DCN FM400 would be the main European options. I imagine the budget would be around as much as the U214 deal.

DCN's Marlin lost against HDW U214 for the SSK deal, so I think they will be looking for a bit of a come back. If a European frigate is chosen, then Thales & MBDA would be winners regardless of whether DCN or TKMS wins.

Although I think DCN would have a much better chance if it offers FREMM at a competitive rate. If Algeria, Greece and Saudi Arabia also choose FREMM, I think Pakistan would be better off joining the boat...development costs of the FFG would be thinner on us.
 
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mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #664
Pakistan to Host Another ‘Aman’ Series Naval Exercise Next Year

* First of four Chinese frigates ready to be delivered to Pakistan


BEIJING: Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir said on Saturday that Pakistan would host another naval exercise of the “Aman” (Peace) series in March next year, APP reported.

He expressed hope that China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy would again participate in the exercise, along with naval forces from other countries, in Pakistani waters, to enhance understanding and stability in the maritime domain worldwide.

Afzal will meet Chinese Defence Minister General Liang Guanglie, PLA Commander Navy Admiral Wu Shengli, and other senior officials. He will be the chief guest at the launch of first F-22P Frigate – PNS Zulfiqar – at Hudong Shipyard in Shanghai on April 7. “This is the first time the Pakistan Navy has ordered large fighting units from China and it demonstrates our trust in Chinese technology,” said the Naval Chief.

“We are very thankful to the PLA Navy which is providing whole-hearted support for this project and is also ensuring that these ships are constructed in accordance with the Naval standard and our requirements”, he noted. Under an agreement signed in 2005, China will build four ships, three at the Hudong Shipyard, while the fourth one will be constructed at the Karachi Shipyard in 2013, fulfilling a pledge that was part of the April 2005 agreement to build frigates to transfer Chinese shipbuilding technology to Pakistan, Reuters reported.

First frigate: Meanwhile, The China Daily said that a Shanghai shipyard had completed the first of four frigates to be delivered to Pakistan. The deal was a “catalyst” for co-operation on the construction of other vessels, the paper said, citing Admiral Tahir.

“They [frigates] will be deployed for the defence of our maritime interests and to meet our commitments in other aspects of maritime diplomacy,” the paper quoted Tahir as saying. The F-22P ship is a modification of a Chinese frigate that uses a Russian-designed main gun rather than a Chinese model. It will be armed with eight surface-to-air missiles and eight surface-to-surface missiles. Agencies

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\04\06\story_6-4-2008_pg7_35


Looks like Monday is the day when the first F-22P frigate is handed over to the PN. It definitely is an interesting development, though still no news on what other surface vessels PN is leaning towards.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Pakistan to Host Another ‘Aman’ Series Naval Exercise Next Year

* First of four Chinese frigates ready to be delivered to Pakistan

BEIJING: Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir said on Saturday that Pakistan would host another naval exercise of the “Aman” (Peace) series in March next year, APP reported.

He expressed hope that China’s People’s Liberation Army (PLA) Navy would again participate in the exercise, along with naval forces from other countries, in Pakistani waters, to enhance understanding and stability in the maritime domain worldwide.

Afzal will meet Chinese Defence Minister General Liang Guanglie, PLA Commander Navy Admiral Wu Shengli, and other senior officials. He will be the chief guest at the launch of first F-22P Frigate – PNS Zulfiqar – at Hudong Shipyard in Shanghai on April 7. “This is the first time the Pakistan Navy has ordered large fighting units from China and it demonstrates our trust in Chinese technology,” said the Naval Chief.

“We are very thankful to the PLA Navy which is providing whole-hearted support for this project and is also ensuring that these ships are constructed in accordance with the Naval standard and our requirements”, he noted. Under an agreement signed in 2005, China will build four ships, three at the Hudong Shipyard, while the fourth one will be constructed at the Karachi Shipyard in 2013, fulfilling a pledge that was part of the April 2005 agreement to build frigates to transfer Chinese shipbuilding technology to Pakistan, Reuters reported.

First frigate: Meanwhile, The China Daily said that a Shanghai shipyard had completed the first of four frigates to be delivered to Pakistan. The deal was a “catalyst” for co-operation on the construction of other vessels, the paper said, citing Admiral Tahir.

“They [frigates] will be deployed for the defence of our maritime interests and to meet our commitments in other aspects of maritime diplomacy,” the paper quoted Tahir as saying. The F-22P ship is a modification of a Chinese frigate that uses a Russian-designed main gun rather than a Chinese model. It will be armed with eight surface-to-air missiles and eight surface-to-surface missiles. Agencies

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008:mad:6story_6-4-2008_pg7_35


Looks like Monday is the day when the first F-22P frigate is handed over to the PN. It definitely is an interesting development, though still no news on what other surface vessels PN is leaning towards.
8 surface to air missiles seems pretty inadequate,any idea what is the actual sam load and type of missiles to be deployed on these frigates?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FM90, upgraded export version of FM80 (HQ-7). 8 missiles on the launcher, 16 for reload.
 

Salty Dog

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
8 surface to air missiles seems pretty inadequate,any idea what is the actual sam load and type of missiles to be deployed on these frigates?
The naval HQ-7 launcher carries eight ready-to-launch missiles, and is fed by an automatic loader. A total of 24 missiles is most likely carried (8 in the launcher and 16 in the magazine). The HQ-7 is similar to the French Crotale.

http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/navalmissile/hq7naval.asp
 

BilalK

New Member
Well latest on PN...you all know that the first F-22P hit the seas - PNS Zulifqar. Latest word has it that PN will request 6 Oliver Hazard Perry Class FFGs from the U.S., as well as seek to upgrade them with Mk.41+ESSM among other things. The 6 OHPs and 4 F-22P will serve as 'stopgaps' until their respective replacements Future-FFG and MILGEM arrive.

Regarding the Future-FFG - as I've said the PN has released an RFP for the initial batch of 4 ships. We'll know who will respond to the RFP by IDEAS 2008 this November; but an idea of the types of frigates PN will probably choose from:

1) Type-054A|4000-4500 tons|Multi-role|China
2) TF-100|2500-3500 tons|Multi-role|based on MILGEM|Turkey
3) FM400|4000 tons| Multi-role|based on FREMM|France
4) MEKO Delta| 3500 tons|Multi-role|Germany
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Well latest on PN...you all know that the first F-22P hit the seas - PNS Zulifqar. Latest word has it that PN will request 6 Oliver Hazard Perry Class FFGs from the U.S., as well as seek to upgrade them with Mk.41+ESSM among other things. The 6 OHPs and 4 F-22P will serve as 'stopgaps' until their respective replacements Future-FFG and MILGEM rrive.
Agree but what is your source for this news. Appreciate if proper credits are given before quoting others.
 
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BilalK

New Member
Agree but what is your source for this news. Appreciate if proper credits are given before quoting others.
Sorry :(

The above OHP & F-22P news is from pshamim on PakDef;
The MILGEM part is from H Khan on PakDef;
The RFP is from Janes Defence Weekly
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Brunei's F2000 new small frigates are for sale. With Pakistan in the buying mode, and Brunei wanting to sell, there might be a way to unburden Brunei of its new small frigates. I'm sure a bank somewhere can do a loan.
 

BilalK

New Member
Brunei's F2000 new small frigates are for sale. With Pakistan in the buying mode, and Brunei wanting to sell, there might be a way to unburden Brunei of its new small frigates. I'm sure a bank somewhere can do a loan.
I don't think the cost is as much of an issue as the logistical and systems-diversity those F2000s would bring. Look at the possible OHP purchase - it would be armed with Harpoon, ESSM, Mk.46, etc. Then the F-22P is armed with C-802, FM90 and Yu-7. Finally the F2000 comes with Exocet, Seawolf and some torpedo system - possibly MU90?

At some point I reckon the PN will need to do some refits on the F-22P and Nakhoda Class ships. I imagine an attempt to equip F-22P with Seawolf and the same ASW as Nakhoda.
 
Brunei's F2000 new small frigates are for sale. With Pakistan in the buying mode, and Brunei wanting to sell, there might be a way to unburden Brunei of its new small frigates. I'm sure a bank somewhere can do a loan.
Brunei's F2000 OPVs are likely to be sold to The UAE which has shown some interest in them.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #674
Pakistan Navy Inducts Karrar into its Fleet

KARACHI: Pakistan Navy (PN) ship Karrar, the second Multi-Role Tactical Platform (MRTP-33) vessel, was commissioned into the Pakistan Navy in an impressive ceremony on Friday at the PN dockyard.

Chief of the Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir was the chief guest at the event. The admiral said that several large shipbuilding and port construction projects currently underway were indicative of the rapid growth in the maritime sector.

He said the near-permanent shape of the coalition maritime campaign was an indicator of the unpredictable nature of the maritime environment, and thanked the Turkish government for providing assistance in strengthening the defence needs of the Pakistan Navy.

In his welcome address, Deputy Chief of the Naval Staff (Projects) Rear Admiral Azhar Shamim highlighted the significance of the project, in which several modifications were made in the internal design of the boat to suit PN requirements. Online

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\04\12\story_12-4-2008_pg7_31


While we've all been busy with higher tonnage vessels, this news has just come in. Very interesting to say the least abt the last sentence of the report. Anyone with the knowledge to elaborate on what 'modifications' have been carried out on the MRTP-33s for PN's unique requirements?
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #675
Navy Induct Two Aloutte Choppers, Fokker Aircraft

KARACHI: The Pakistan Navy added two Alouette helicopters and a Fokker aircraft to its aviation fleet at a ceremony at the PNS Mehran navy aviation base on Saturday.

Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir was the chief guest. Navy says it has modified the Fokker aircraft with new “state of the art” sensors and weapons. The aircraft was acquired from Pakistan International Airlines (PIA), which grounded its Fokker fleet in 2006. The contract with the PIA includes two more Fokker aircrafts for spare support and transfer of associated maintenance facilities.

The marinised Alouettes have been acquired from a private UK firm as part of six-helicopter deal. They will operate from ships and can be employed for multiple roles. The remaining four helicopters will arrive in Pakistan by the last quarter of this year. Addressing the ceremony, the navy chief said that the current geo-political scenario and security environment warranted that the navy be prepared for war and ready to carry out a wide range of operations. A major activity in this regard was the navy’s “uninterrupted participation in the Coalition Maritime Campaign Plan”, he added.

He said the aviation fleet of Pakistan Navy would be doubled in the next few years with the induction of more P3C aircrafts, Alouette helicopters and a force multiplier AEW aircraft. Online

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\04\13\story_13-4-2008_pg7_13


Could this talk of an AEW aircraft be the Chinese Y-8 or the U.S. E-2 Hawkeye? Seems that PN is finally getting a shot in the arm.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I'm wondering about the timings of all these potential acquisitions.

Let's start with the OHPs. With the delays with the LCS programme, the USN is unlikely to offload anytime soon another 6 OHPs. On top, modernizing them with Mk41 and ESSM would take another year of shipyard work.

In the meanwhile the Amazons will have to be retired and the PN can't end up with only 4 F22s...

Longer term, if we take the RFP for the new FFGs, I don't understand how the PN can be taking into account types of ships who exist only on the drawing boards... unless we're talking of ships supposed to enter service around 2020...

I still feel that the PN is putting too much emphasis on SSKs and because of that the surface fleet renewal programme is way too slow

cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
The new shipbuilding program does seem to be a bit slow, ordering four at a time when they need eight. Pakistan will never have the numbers India has. Currently there are more Indian submarines than there are Pakistan surface ships.

A nation the size of Pakistan interested in becoming more sufficient, building their ships within Pakistan, needs to keep their shipyards busy, or not even attempt to do so. In the past Pakistan bought whatever used frigate as cheaply as possible. After their first order with China, it appears there is an attempt to buy new and build some of them within. Pakistan needs to get into a rotation building program, one ship built within with the F22P class, at least two ships built within this next larger class, possibly Type 054s, and at least two ships with the next class.....and at the same time spreading the work out for their shipyard. It appears Pakistan chose a cheaper, smaller, easier ship for their first new build, and something larger and more expensive for their next steps.

So with any new ships, the long term considerations have to be included into the new ship programs. Any used ships will be just that, used short term stopgaps to fill the fleet until new ships are built. I am sure Pakistan would love to build destroyers, but they need to walk before they can run. The first being built within Pakistan is probably going to take five years, but that same shipyard can probably build two ships in the next ten years, and the next ten years after that. Thirty years will have passed with only 5 new ships built within Pakistan to show. But there is a good opportunity to have bought from abroad 6 new ships, adding up to 11 new frigates. Five new ships. frigates, is great from nothing. Any quicker shipbuiding will be a plus, meaning Pakistan can build maybe three of the four ordered in the long term.

Pakistan may get to the point where they can design and build all of their new ships. At the moment they aren't there, but in thirty years they can. Currently their best plan is to build as many ships as possible within, but may have to let the home shipyards build one or two of their designs. Then there is the financial problem, countries don't give loans without some kick back, and with ship loans, these countries will want some orders. But as long as Pakistan can build some, its a win-win situation for everyone.

New ships will have a lifetime of thirty years, used ships needing upgrades don't. Plus the costs of upgrades are now approaching the costs of these ships when they were first built. I believe Pakistan is worried about this more than the Latin Americans, whose refits are basic, not upgrades. Pakistan is facing a much better up to date Indian navy, the Latin Americans aren't as much.

Is Pakistan behind? Yes. But I think they are going in the right direction finally. In my mind they should have started building new a few years after buying the Type 21s.
 
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SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
The new shipbuilding program does seem to be a bit slow, ordering four at a time when they need eight. Pakistan will never have the numbers India has. Currently there are more Indian submarines than there are Pakistan surface ships.
There has never been an attempt to match India numerically, especially when it comes to Navy. Its too expensive, infeasible & way more than required. PN has always maintained 6 to 8 Submarines compared to IN's 14 to 16 (Hmm... If I am wrong about numbers correct me). 6 to 8 Submarines are lesser than 14 to 16 but still significant number to watch out for.

If you take the region in greater size starting from Red Sea to Bay of Bengal than PN & IN are perhaps the only potent Navy in terms of fighting capability & Submarines. & since both India & Pakistan are nuclear powers both probably have enough time to muster their naval strength (as chances of war between the two are low). However, no matter how much time & money I don't think PN will attempt exceed IN in numbers.

& ... at the moment I think its a good idea to learn to make your own ships as it would be really handy in the future but its still more feasible to purchase from outside. 2nd hand ship idea has not been eliminated yet & PN is on the lookout - you can consider it long term stop gap.
 

BilalK

New Member
I agree...I too am a bit concerned about the time-periods of all these acquisitions. However I should note that there are at least 2 new shipyards being raised in Pakistan in addition to KSEW - one in Gwadar and the other in Port Qasim. I reckon a 3rd new one is being envisioned for Somniani...and all the new shipyards are private.

So shipbuilding capacity might not be the problem, but rather the designs and technology transfer time...especially for U214, MILGEM and the Future-FFG. I have a feeling that the Future-FFG might not be as daunting as it sounds.

For example the Turks recently unveiled the TF-100 FFG design - 2500 to 3500 displacement range - based on MILGEM. Feasibly speaking the TF-100 would be a natural choice for PN. Once the TF-100 and MILGEM designs qualify in sea-trials and evaluations, I think Pakistan can produce a fair number fairly quickly.

I also don't think the Future-SSK will be as daunting as it sounds either. IMO KSEW may try to expand its facilities to produce 2 different submarine types - i.e. first U214 and continued Agosta-90. As of now the Agosta-90 design is a mature platform and I think can be further improved - at least in internal systems.

In the end only PN can confirm...but I think it has alternatives to meet any short-falls. Nonetheless we will have to wait and see...I think it is really the period from 2008 to 2015 which will be an issue. After 2015 expect the MILGEM and for my sake :D U214 & TF-100 to come down.
 
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aaaditya

New Member
There has never been an attempt to match India numerically, especially when it comes to Navy. Its too expensive, infeasible & way more than required. PN has always maintained 6 to 8 Submarines compared to IN's 14 to 16 (Hmm... If I am wrong about numbers correct me). 6 to 8 Submarines are lesser than 14 to 16 but still significant number to watch out for.

If you take the region in greater size starting from Red Sea to Bay of Bengal than PN & IN are perhaps the only potent Navy in terms of fighting capability & Submarines. & since both India & Pakistan are nuclear powers both probably have enough time to muster their naval strength (as chances of war between the two are low). However, no matter how much time & money I don't think PN will attempt exceed IN in numbers.

& ... at the moment I think its a good idea to learn to make your own ships as it would be really handy in the future but its still more feasible to purchase from outside. 2nd hand ship idea has not been eliminated yet & PN is on the lookout - you can consider it long term stop gap.
pakistani navy never had any numerical superiority over the indian navy,the even more worrying factor is the increase in quality gap between indian and pakistani navies,lets forget about indian navy ,indian coast guard is acquiring vessels of corvette size and intends to have a fleet of 154 vessels and boats of which 27 are already under construction.

what pakistani navy needs to do is acquire capital ships of 4000+ tons displacement and preferably of a new build ,you cannot shoehorn a whole lot of weapons and sensors in a vessel of 3500 ton displacement,in pakistan a frigate is 3500 tons displacement in other nations that would be considered as an extended sized corvette.

india is virtually creating two navies (the indian navy entirely for offensive roles with anti-submarine warfare capability and the indian coast guard entirely for coastal defence ,maintainence of sea lines of communication and convoy escort roles),once thye responsibility of convoy escort is taken from the indian navy ,indian navy can entirely concentate its attention on offensive aspects.

the best solution for pakistani navy would be to acquire a fleet of 10 submarines and to use them against indian submarines ,besides for offensive roles,while acquiring capital ships like destroyers and frigates to counter any indian navy assault force,pakistan must also lay emphasise on anti submarine warfare corvettes (1800-2500 ton ) displacement and use them to supplemnt their submarines in anti submarine warfare.

pakistan must also lay an emphasise on strengthening must also lay an emphasise on strengthening its coast guard and give it convoy escort duties and coastal defence responsibilities to reduce that burden on pakistani navy.
 
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