Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

[BilalK]

I don't think systems like the Formidable Class, MEKO Delta, etc, are easily considered "extended corvettes" by many forces. The MILGEM will cover ASW, coastal defence and general patrol duties on EEZs. A 3500-ton FFG can provide further range, have medium-range air defence and take on more offensive missions. High displacement ships with long-range air defence will probably be added, but it is not an immediate priority.

The U214 deal may be finalized this year or at least the Future-SSK plan in general. I think Agosta-90B (or variant) may be built parallel with the U214s. Perhaps a larger submarine order will be given - like 6-9 - but split between KSEW, Gwadar/Port Qasim and/or even TKMS. Nonetheless I am pretty sure PN has planned its way through fairly well.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Pakistan eyes US frigate as Congress debates transfer bill

Pakistan will acquire an Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate if US legislators approve a bill allowing retired US Navy (USN) vessels to be transferred to ...
26-Jun-2008

Janes

Result of first one will set the precedent for others to follow.

Pakistan is reportedly seeking 4 Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates.

 

[kams]

Full Text of S 3052 Naval Vessel Transfer Act of 2008'

(a) Transfers by Grant- The President is authorized to transfer vessels to foreign recipients on a grant basis under section 516 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2321j), as follows:

(1) PAKISTAN- To the Government of Pakistan, the OLIVER HAZARD PERRY class guided missile frigate MCINERNEY (FFG-8).

 

[Sea Toby]

I would think four to six OHPerry class should fill the short term needs of the Pakistan navy, at least for the next ten to fifteen years. However, I still want t see Pakistan buying another four new surface ships within the next few years,maybe a few could be built in Pakistan.

 

[BilalK]

I would think four to six OHPerry class should fill the short term needs of the Pakistan navy, at least for the next ten to fifteen years. However, I still want t see Pakistan buying another four new surface ships within the next few years,maybe a few could be built in Pakistan.

PN requested 6 OHPs in 2006, and intends to procure 4 new-built FFGs with at least 2 built locally...in fact it already released the RFP.

 

[tatra]

PN requested 6 OHPs in 2006, and intends to procure 4 new-built FFGs with at least 2 built locally...in fact it already released the RFP.

Those new-builts are not the F22P? Cause those are common of the production line right now.

 

[Scientist]

The U214 deal with Pakistan is very controversial in the German media and parliament and there is still is no permission by the Government.

In 2009 are elections for the Federal parliament. So if the political situation in Pakistan doesn’t become better and the deal is not done quick, the government will not decide it against the public opinion (and the green party which is maybe needed after the election).

The deal would be against the 10 year old moral codex which allows weapon exports only in stabile nations which respect human rights. They sometimes break it (if nobody has a close look on it) but I would not bet on it in this situation.

Its nothing to plan with.

 

[kato]

The deal would be against the 10 year old moral codex

26 years old actually. They just made it Europe-wide 8 years ago.

 

[BilalK]

Those new-builts are not the F22P? Cause those are common of the production line right now.

The RFP is for a frigate larger and more capable than the F-22P.

Scientist;

The U214 deal with Germany is meeting stiff resistance in Pakistan as well...mostly due to the commercial contract currently on the table.

 

[radiosilence]

The U214 deal with Pakistan is very controversial in the German media and parliament and there is still is no permission by the Government.

The German Media/ Parliament can make all the noise they want the PN have other options.

The deal would be against the 10 year old moral codex which allows weapon exports only in stabile nations which respect human rights. They sometimes break it (if nobody has a close look on it) but I would not bet on it in this situation.

Really, I can think of at least one country that Germany has sold weapons(subs) to which has been accused/known to violate human rights.

 

[Scientist]

26 years old actually. They just made it Europe-wide 8 years ago.

It depends on in which way you count. Even in official publications you can find different numbers. But the exact time is not so important. I just wanted to say, that there is already some experience how this things are handled in praxis.

Really, I can think of at least one country that Germany has sold weapons(subs) to which has been accused/known to violate human rights.

That’s not the point. It always depends on the political constellation. And this is very bad for Pakistan (even if they have other options).
Two decisions have to be made by the German government.

1. Is it legal to export this weapons to Pakistan

This is already critical.
And:

2. Do they (or in the end the German taxpayer) give financial guaranties to HDW for the case that Pakistan don’t wont or is not able to pay?

The last part is maybe the more important one. If we think about the Pakistan has only the economic power of a larger European City (and not a really big one) the deal is quite big.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship with very chaotic and unstable political situation. We don’t know who will have the power there in a few years. Will they pay for the old deal, or is the country a second Iran and potential enemy than?

In 2009 are elections. Like I the US, the election campaign starts early and can be dirty.
Who wants to explain the Taxpayers that they have to guaranty with their money that a developing country in one of the hottest spots on earth gets the possible ability to launch nuclear weapons silently?

Its election campaign. Lots of people are paid to find stories like that and write about it.

Especially the green party (which is traditionally strong in Germany) opposes the plan in parliament. Depending on the results of the election, they are needed to form a new government. Its all about strategy.

This kind of deals are like submarines. They have to be silent and invisible. On they surface they are easily to be killed.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

It depends on in which way you count. Even in official publications you can find different numbers. But the exact time is not so important. I just wanted to say, that there is already some experience how this things are handled in praxis.

That’s not the point. It always depends on the political constellation. And this is very bad for Pakistan (even if they have other options).
Two decisions have to be made by the German government.

1. Is it legal to export this weapons to Pakistan

This is already critical.
And:

2. Do they (or in the end the German taxpayer) give financial guaranties to HDW for the case that Pakistan don’t wont or is not able to pay?

The last part is maybe the more important one. If we think about the Pakistan has only the economic power of a larger European City (and not a really big one) the deal is quite big.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship with very chaotic and unstable political situation. We don’t know who will have the power there in a few years. Will they pay for the old deal, or is the country a second Iran and potential enemy than?

In 2009 are elections. Like I the US, the election campaign starts early and can be dirty.
Who wants to explain the Taxpayers that they have to guaranty with their money that a developing country in one of the hottest spots on earth gets the possible ability to launch nuclear weapons silently?

Its election campaign. Lots of people are paid to find stories like that and write about it.

Especially the green party (which is traditionally strong in Germany) opposes the plan in parliament. Depending on the results of the election, they are needed to form a new government. Its all about strategy.

This kind of deals are like submarines. They have to be silent and invisible. On they surface they are easily to be killed.

I assure you that Pakistanis have exactly the same concerns as well and as a matter of fact soon to be brought up in Pakistan Parliament for debate. It has already come in parliment with official debate to start soon and the so called dictatorship was transferred back to democratic government earlier 110 days ago in an election endorsed by the world as largely fair.

1. Is it worth bying it from Germans when Pakistan has other options which mind you are very close in characteristics but at a much lower cost.

2. Is Germany reliable enough to transfer the subs in the end even if Pakistan pays for them ? Great possibility of USA giveing orders to Germany not to transfer.

3. If the quality will be as good as declared. Keeping in mind the Greek experience.

Pakistan's record is more cleaner: Mind you, Pakistan hasnt in the past ever defferred on payments on military equipment. French sub deal being one such example. Heck, Pakistan even continued on to pay for the F-16s even after the first lots of F-16s was refused to be delivered.

and incase you dont know, let me gladly enlighten you that it was an open tender where HDW of Germany competed ferociously with DCN of France to bag this Pakistani contract.

It is hard to imagine that HDW being quiet a big company was unaware of German laws or participated in bidding without a go ahead from Germany. Or is it a common practice to bag the contract first and work out the modalities later ?

 

[radiosilence]

That’s not the point. It always depends on the political constellation. And this is very bad for Pakistan (even if they have other options).
Two decisions have to be made by the German government.

1. Is it legal to export this weapons to Pakistan

This is already critical.
And:

2. Do they (or in the end the German taxpayer) give financial guaranties to HDW for the case that Pakistan don’t wont or is not able to pay?

If they have other options they could alway say F you (pardon my french) if the german media and politicians make a stink. Please cite an example where Pakistan has ordered a weapon system and defaulted on it. Germany have troops in Afghanistan so its in their interest to have good relations with Pakistan.

Pakistan is a military dictatorship with very chaotic and unstable political situation. We don’t know who will have the power there in a few years. Will they pay for the old deal, or is the country a second Iran and potential enemy than?

Military dictatorship? Apparently you haven't been keeping up. Second Iran, seems to me you are not familar with the internal dynamics of Pakistan.

In 2009 are elections. Like I the US, the election campaign starts early and can be dirty.
Who wants to explain the Taxpayers that they have to guaranty with their money that a developing country in one of the hottest spots on earth gets the possible ability to launch nuclear weapons silently?

Germany have sold/given submarines to Israel perhaps the hottest spot on the earth for which it will be used to launch nukes silently to use your term.






edit:
The german defence minister visited Pakistan on more than one occasion during the last couple of years so to make it seem like only Pakistan is pushing for this deal is rubbish.


Pakistan, German defence ministers discuss submarine purchase

Islamabad - Pakistan will purchase submarines from Germany for its navy. Talks on this issue were held on Tuesday between the defence ministers of Pakistan and Germany. The German defence minister hinted at his country's cooperation to meet the Pakistan Navy's requirements. Pakistan Defence Minister Rao Sikandar Iqbal and his German counterpart, Dr Franz Josef Jung, addressed a joint news conference following the talks ...

link

 

[Scientist]

Don’t forget in this debate:
1.Its not only about facts. Its about feelings, its about the Image Pakistan has in Europe. Its enough if people belief something during a campaign it has not to be true.

I don’t try to argue against Pakistan. I try to explain how people might think.

It is hard to imagine that HDW being quiet a big company was unaware of German laws or participated in bidding without a go ahead from Germany. Or is it a common practice to bag the contract first and work out the modalities later ?

It is not hard to imagine. It’s a common strategy. Make the deal and force politics by the argument that otherwise Country XXX gets the jobs. And HDW wants the guaranty of the taxpayer.

We have to keep in mind: There are not countries biding against each other but companies.
And if they get the support of their government depends on the country its political system (for example France is a Presidential democracy with a strong President and Germany is a parliamentary democracy) and political culture (the influence of politics and national interests on French economy is different from the German).
Many people in Germany are (because of its History) very critical about human rights, democracy, weapon deals, and even its own army.

It has already come in parliment with official debate to start soon and the so called dictatorship was transferred back to democratic government earlier 110 days ago in an election endorsed by the world as largely fair.

So who is the new free elected president of Pakistan. Oh, it is still the old one?
Maybe the European idea of democracy is different.

 

[radiosilence]

So who is the new free elected president of Pakistan. Oh, it is still the old one?

Since you want go into politics.
He was elected by Parliament, the same Parliament that was elected by the people.

Maybe the European idea of democracy is different.

And? Europe doesn't own democracy. This is weapons deal. European countries have sold to far worse. The French were/are jumping over them selves to get this deal.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

It is always a give and take issue. Germany has her own concerns and Pakistan has her own. Meet half way or move on. Point is that German submarine isnt the only option availble to Pakistan.

Pakistanis dont have a very good image of the German submarine either since it costs more and have been controversial perfomance wise with both the navies it sold to: South Korea and Greek. Has Germany settled the issue of quality with the Greeks yet ?

I am not going to comment on politics. You seem to be totally out of touch.

 

[Scientist]

If they have other options they could alway say F you (pardon my french) if the german media and politicians make a stink. Germany have troops in Afghanistan so its in their interest to have good relations with Pakistan. Please cite an example where Pakistan has ordered a weapon system and defaulted on it.

There are Troops in Afghanistan. There will be even more on the pressure of the US.
BUT: The majority in Germany is against this! Nobody knows, what German soldiers are really doing there. Dutch people have the same problem by the way.
So this is only an argument for some politicians and military professionals, but nothing you can tell the people during an election campaign.

Please cite an example where Pakistan has ordered a weapon system and defaulted on it.

The point is: Do taxpayers trust them.

Germany has sold/given submarines to Israel perhaps the hottest spot on the earth for which it will be used to launch nukes silently to use your term.

This was a very controversial deal but at least Israel is the only real democracy in the whole region and a very close partner.

The german defence minister visited Pakistan on more than one occasion during the last couple of year so to make it seem like only Pakistan is pushing for this deal is rubbish.

The power of a German defence minister is very limited. He is known as a right wing who wants to keep nuclear weapons in Germany. I would not say that he always represents the opinions of the majority of government or the parliament.

Since you want go into politics.
He was elected by Parliament, the same Parliament that was elected by the people.

you are right we shouldnt go too deep into politics. But everybody can look up in an encyclopaedia how he became president.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

There are Troops in Afghanistan. There will be even more on the pressure of the US.
BUT: The majority in Germany is against this! Nobody knows, what German soldiers are really doing there. Dutch people have the same problem by the way.
So this is only an argument for some politicians and military professionals, but nothing you can tell the people during an election campaign.

The point is: Do taxpayers trust them.

Pakistani taxpayers feels the same way too. Now what ?

 

[radiosilence]

There are Troops in Afghanistan. There will be even more on the pressure of the US.
BUT: The majority in Germany is against this! Nobody knows, what German soldiers are really doing there. Dutch people have the same problem by the way.

The fact of the matter is Germany has troops there so its in the interest of any German govt(left/right) to have good relations with Pakistan.

So this is only an argument for some politicians and military professionals, but nothing you can tell the people during an election campaign.

Ok its not like this deal wouldn't help the german economy, you are making it out be like they are doing Pakistan a favor by taking their money and selling them Subs.

The point is: Do taxpayers trust them.

Seems like you are making stuff up. How can you have a concern about Pakistan defaulting on this deal when they have never done it before?

This was a very controversial deal but at least Israel is the only real democracy in the whole region and a very close partner.

Are you seriously writing stuff like this?

The power of a German defence minister is very limited. He is known as a right wing who wants to keep nuclear weapons in Germany. I would not say that he always represents the opinions of the majority of government or the parliament.

He was representing Germany when he went persuing this deal after all he is part of an elected government.

you are right we shouldnt go too deep into politics. But everybody can look up in an encyclopaedia how he became president.

Seems like you have a grudge against him or something but this related to the weapons deal how?

 

[Scientist]

Pakistani taxpayers feels the same way too. Now what ?

Of course.
But the situation is now, that the Pakistani government would like to buy this submarines from a German company.
The German Company would like to sell the subs too. But, they need an O.K. of the German Government.
In Principle no problem (I completly understand the arguments of all of you).
It is good for economy it creates jobs and it may help in Afghanistan, no question.

The problem is: There will be no public support. Even worse, there will be a lot of resistance against it (and was already in the parliament) and if they don’t hurry up it will be in a critical time.

That’s everything I want to say.

Ok its not like this deal wouldn't help the german economy, you are making it out be like they are doing Pakistan a favor by taking their money and selling them Subs.

It would be a favour, because they would have to break the national and European moral codex.

This was a very controversial deal but at least Israel is the only real democracy in the whole region and a very close partner.

Are you seriously writing stuff like this?

The deal was controversial (and still is).
For sure Israel is a democracy and the other states in the near east are not (or fake democracies with some strong militaries or secret services in the background).
And Germany is traditionally Israels most important partner besides the US.
So what is the problem.

Seems like you have a grudge against him or something but this related to the weapons deal how?

Because in my opinion in this constellation public opinion on Pakistan and its politics (and the presidents PR is not the best) will play an important role for the decision of this or the next German Government if they give their OK for this weapon deal or not (and I guess not, but of course I might be wrong).
It is not a military, strategic, economic decision, it’s a political decision.