contedicavour
New Member
This makes sense. The Pakistanis are after all assembling Agosta90s. Anything less than local assembly would be a step back.
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Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter mysterious
- Start date
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Gripenator
Banned Member
Do the Pakistanis have the right to assemble the Agosta90B (as in locally source materials bar the electronics from France) or do they have to recieve the kit from France and then assemble it at the Karachi Naval Yard?
Gripenator
Banned Member
The PN also needs to invest more in their submarine arm (and facilities) in order to have a credible naval deterrent against India. The current 5 Agosta 90B SSKs (two of the older Agosta70 design) based at Karachi are of marginal strategic value as they would be easy targets for Indian strike fighters (I'm thinking SEPECAT Jaguar) based anywhere on the West Coast of India. A quick scan of Google Earth reveals that the shelters for the SSK (approx 250m x500m) are made of something looking suspiciously like corrugated sheet metal, in effect a glorified metal shed. It remains to be seen if it can withstand a 250 pound Indian bomb!
These things aside, the recent order? (if it is true) for 4 U214/209U seem to complicated the IN's strategic planning along with the new naval base at Gwadar although in my estimation, the entire Pakistani Navy has become obsolete with the mass induction of the Brahmos Ashm/ASM on the Su-30MKI, naval ships as well as even a land launched version. I'm no expert on naval warfare but some Indian friends tell me it was a extremely poor decision to buy the F-22P (Jianghu V) as the PN could have recieved 2nd hand Dutch/UK frigates which were far more capable. If I were the Pakistanis, I'd buy 8 U214 to replace the whole Agosta force, invest in 40-50 FAC with YJ-63 w/ datalinks, seabed sonar (Pak SOSUS
) and heavily in mine warfare (those Russian KA-5 Kontakts look good) to asymmetrically offset the Indian conventional naval superiority-I'd only use the PN surface vessels as decoys with skeleton crew and sink the money into the army and air force (esp more F-1652+, J-10s and JF-17s with AIM-120C-5, SD-10 and MICA VLS ADS to offset the Indian Su-30MKI and the recent buy of SPYDER Air Defense Systems. (Please excuse my rant)Anyway, a pressing question I would like to ask, how does the Agosta90B and the U214 compare to the Indian Type209s, 877 Kilos and incoming Scorpene SSKs in the areas of quieting, sonar performance and range of weaponry?
ie. Agosta 90B v Type 209/Kilo 877
and U214 v Scorpene
(as rough contemporaries)
No & no.
contedicavour
New Member
Interesting. I would rather make sure the Pakistani coastline becomes unassailable (the Indians are after all developing serious amphibious assets). So more SSKs yes, but I'd focus on well armed multirole corvettes, and batteries of land based SSMs. Oh and yes absolutely better shelters for all these assets.The PN also needs to invest more in their submarine arm (and facilities) in order to have a credible naval deterrent against India. The current 5 Agosta 90B SSKs (two of the older Agosta70 design) based at Karachi are of marginal strategic value as they would be easy targets for Indian strike fighters (I'm thinking SEPECAT Jaguar) based anywhere on the West Coast of India. A quick scan of Google Earth reveals that the shelters for the SSK (approx 250m x500m) are made of something looking suspiciously like corrugated sheet metal, in effect a glorified metal shed. It remains to be seen if it can withstand a 250 pound Indian bomb!
These things aside, the recent order? (if it is true) for 4 U214/209U seem to complicated the IN's strategic planning along with the new naval base at Gwadar although in my estimation, the entire Pakistani Navy has become obsolete with the mass induction of the Brahmos Ashm/ASM on the Su-30MKI, naval ships as well as even a land launched version. I'm no expert on naval warfare but some Indian friends tell me it was a extremely poor decision to buy the F-22P (Jianghu V) as the PN could have recieved 2nd hand Dutch/UK frigates which were far more capable. If I were the Pakistanis, I'd buy 8 U214 to replace the whole Agosta force, invest in 40-50 FAC with YJ-63 w/ datalinks, seabed sonar (Pak SOSUS
Anyway, a pressing question I would like to ask, how does the Agosta90B and the U214 compare to the Indian Type209s, 877 Kilos and incoming Scorpene SSKs in the areas of quieting, sonar performance and range of weaponry?
ie. Agosta 90B v Type 209/Kilo 877
and U214 v Scorpene
(as rough contemporaries)
By the way, Pakistan could also do plenty of useful things (other than defending against an unlikely Indian attack) such as UN patrolling in Middle East waters for example...
cheers
I think with the current political situation in Pakistan who knows which one will come to power in Pak.More over the recent threats by US deal with Germany may not complete.SUPPOSE if it is not done then does that latest CHINESE SUB YUAN CLASS provide an alternative and if it does will it be a better option with TOT and less cost and LESS BLACKMAIL.
CAN SOME ONE TELL ME ABT YUAN CLASS .
CAN SOME ONE TELL ME ABT YUAN CLASS .
contedicavour
New Member
Well first of all the Yuan class has no AIP... and they can't launch anti-ship missiles AFAIK. Scorpene, Marlin and U214 do.
On the other hand, for the cost of 4 U214 you can probably build approx 10 Yuans. It all depends on which performance you want...
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mysterious
New Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #569
The Yuans would be sitting ducks facing off with Scorpenes. PN has some serious choices to make, the consequences of which will be far reaching in terms of force structure and deployment. 3 Agosta 90-Bs, 4 U-214s are still not enough to form a potent defense line. 3 more subs should be acquired to have at least 10 on hand at any given time.
The surface fleet requires complete overhaul as it has become nothing more than a combination/collection of vintage ships with a few upgrades here & there. F-22P Frigates was not the best utilization of already meagre resources on PN's part. More money should've been pumped & a number of La Fayettes should have been procured to effectively pack a punch.
A Naval version of the Babur cruise missile in the absense of the aforementioned platforms becomes a necessity. It would be beneficial to upgrade any such version to super-sonic level to be on par with this capability on the eastern border.
The surface fleet requires complete overhaul as it has become nothing more than a combination/collection of vintage ships with a few upgrades here & there. F-22P Frigates was not the best utilization of already meagre resources on PN's part. More money should've been pumped & a number of La Fayettes should have been procured to effectively pack a punch.
A Naval version of the Babur cruise missile in the absense of the aforementioned platforms becomes a necessity. It would be beneficial to upgrade any such version to super-sonic level to be on par with this capability on the eastern border.
Yuan has AIP, it can fire torpedoes, anti-ship missiles of 120 km (possibly longer if the YJ-83 based one got developed) and SAM (I saw this on CCTV programming). At the same time, Yu-6 is an extremely powerful torpedo. However, it is not the quietest sub out there, I will give you that.
contedicavour
New Member
I'm surprised when reading there is AIP aboard the Yuans... could you something more about this ? Even the Russians are behind on this item and China has operational SSKs with AIP ???
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There was an article on Janes regarding this, which in turn got its information from a Chinese article regarding the completion of an indigenous engine. And the institute and the head developer mentionned in the article was previous known to be the team handling AIP development for Yuan.
The Songs have physically demonstrated they can launch YJ-82s underwater long ago. And I don't mean listing that capability in some brochure like some export subs do, without actually doing it. You can expect the Yuans to have no less. PLAN subs first demonstrated underwater AshM launching with the Hans using YJ-81s, the last three ships modified and lengthened to fit the missiles. The Songs and the Yuans also have passive LF flank sonars, which is not something conventionals have as standard. On the Yuans, there appear to be two on each side.
contedicavour
New Member
Ok thks for your replies.
Everything about subs is so shrouded in secrecy that I don't know which source to believe... while it does seem plausible to me that anti-ship missiles can be launched, I remain sceptical about AIP capability. Reading about all the time and complexity it took to make AIP fully operational on U212 subs, I would consider a fully functioning PLAN AIP as an amazing breakthrough.
cheers
Everything about subs is so shrouded in secrecy that I don't know which source to believe... while it does seem plausible to me that anti-ship missiles can be launched, I remain sceptical about AIP capability. Reading about all the time and complexity it took to make AIP fully operational on U212 subs, I would consider a fully functioning PLAN AIP as an amazing breakthrough.
cheers
gowind 200
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the gowind-200 corvettes will enhance the power ofthe PN even further.
Gowind's weapon system builds around a multi-functional radar and 16 Aster 15 or Mica vertical launch surface-to-air missiles. Its can be armed with either 8 MM40 Exocet or Harpoon anti-ship missiles. The propulsion system is based on Combined Diesel and Diesel (CODAD) and includes water-jets for improved maneuverability in shallow waters and high-speed performance. There is no gas exhaust chimney on these ships. The radar and other sensors are mounted on a single central mast replacing several sensor masts in other ships thus allowing 360-degree view.
by when can the PN expect it's first gowind -200???
any idea ???
.
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the gowind-200 corvettes will enhance the power ofthe PN even further.
Gowind's weapon system builds around a multi-functional radar and 16 Aster 15 or Mica vertical launch surface-to-air missiles. Its can be armed with either 8 MM40 Exocet or Harpoon anti-ship missiles. The propulsion system is based on Combined Diesel and Diesel (CODAD) and includes water-jets for improved maneuverability in shallow waters and high-speed performance. There is no gas exhaust chimney on these ships. The radar and other sensors are mounted on a single central mast replacing several sensor masts in other ships thus allowing 360-degree view.
by when can the PN expect it's first gowind -200???
any idea ???
.
Huh, when you copy something from WEB, atleast provide a link. In this case it is copied from here
Now when did PN place the order for Gowind? It may take 3-4 year from that date for the first delivery.
contedicavour
New Member
IIRC Gowind is for the moment only proposed by DCN to Pakistan without even a formal tender process opened by the Pakistani government... which means that we are reacting to a DCN sales pitch not to any imminent order.
cheers
By the end of this year or early next year & U-214 has not been officially announced as the final selection, though its very much through.
Gripenator
Banned Member
Due to the 'non-existent' Marlin SSK from DCN and no rival bids by Kockums (owned by HDW) or Izar.
But for this PN requirement, wasn't the competition between the Scorpene and U214 although I'm sure the PN for understandable reasons decided to opt for the U214.