radiosilence
jints
Getting the bomb.
That remains to be seen. You were the one making predictions. Btw, Everyone has to start somewhere.
We haven't seen the finish product.
Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter mysterious
- Start date
do you have an idea how many countries in the world are capable of developing a nuclear bomb and how many countries in the world are capable of developing/building nuclear sub, the reactor vessel and associated parts?
It's called common sense, you have never even developed any kind of a civilian reactor, yet you think you can develop a 90 MW reactor safe and small enough for a nuclear sub?
radiosilence
jints
We can speculate on that as much as we want but the point of the matter is, only 8 maybe 9 countries has it. Getting the bomb was very expensive and very challenging yet they overcame all these challenges.
Key word is Embarking on the project.
The project is supposedly in its planning stages and you are making judgements. Is that using common sense as you put it? Btw, we have developed civilian reactors and make small enought reactors for Submarines a long time ago.
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even North Korea is capable of developing a nuclear bomb. South Africa developed a nuclear bomb and then gave it up. You think they are capable of developing a nuclear submarine?
It's a waste of money, you can spend it on more diesel subs that would make live a lot more difficult for IN fleet.Key word is Embarking on the project.
The project is supposedly in its planning stages and you are making judgements. Is that using common sense as you put it? Btw, we have developed civilian reactors and make small enought reactors for Submarines a long time ago.
You guys have 2 300 MW plant Chashma, and they are both built by China. Aside from that, all you got is a 137 MW reactor. Now, how are you going to develop a 90 MW reactor for a submarine? tell me.
radiosilence
jints
Well you seem to be missing the point. According to the report the Pakistanis are embarking on the project. What part of that don't get?
Chashma? We have Seawolf and Virginia class. No need for diesel subs.
I get every point, but it's a waste of money to embark on this project.
I was clearly talking about Pakistan. It doesn't take a genius to figure that part out.
radiosilence
jints
I wasn't so sure that you did because you were making judgements condeming it. Comparing something that doesn't exist to a Han-class etc.
Well obviously you keep repeating it so i had to clear it up. Btw, that what you wrote below.
edit: This is getting futile. No hard feeling.
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Gripenator
Banned Member
Theoretically Pakistan could enlarge an Agosta 90B design and fit in a nuclear reactor purchased or designed in collaboration with or donated by the PRC-the performance would possibly, in the best of circumstances, radiate the same noise levels as the PLAN's new 093 SSN-assuming the PRC is willing to transfer such a design. We would assume that the reactor in the 093 design is significantly more quiet than the 091 design
As TP suggests, designing a reactor to fit in an SSN is entirely possible for Pakistan-the problem is getting the noise levels projected by the reactors <5db? down to USN levels.
Give the PN 180 more years
As TP suggests, designing a reactor to fit in an SSN is entirely possible for Pakistan-the problem is getting the noise levels projected by the reactors <5db? down to USN levels.
Give the PN 180 more years
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=9873]
Pak Navy opts for little known German subs
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has almost decided to purchase German-manufactured U-214 submarines worth $1 billion on a single source basis.
Senior officials confirmed this huge sale-purchase deal for the U-214 submarines for the Pakistan Navy but confided to The News that the offer was not in compliance with the invitation of the tender issued on May 10, 2006. Also, the submarines are not much known as no such subs are in service with any navy of the world.
The Defence Production Ministry and its technical evaluators, including senior naval officers, rejected a far-better French Marlin even without opening a tender for the said submarines for obvious reasons, alleged a senior official.
French authorities, including former French president Chirac, had protested to President General Pervez Musharraf some time back this flat rejection of their offer. The president, said the source, had assured his French counterpart that the scrutiny process of purchasing submarines would be transparent and fair. But the authorities and those linked to this project masterminded the French offer to be outclassed, though Pakistan had ordered and operated three generations of French submarines in the last 40 years.
The two last subs have been produced in Karachi by means of a successful Transfer of Technology (ToT), as key human and industrial assets are the result of a long and fruitful cooperation between Pakistan and France. This resulted in Pakistan’s joining of a very select club of submarine builders.
One senior official said that after partial selection of the German HDW (Howaldtswearke — Deutsche Werft), a senior Defence Production official, Commander Nisar Ahmed, who is assistant director Munitions Production (Navy), raised many queries on the proposal from the HDW for the construction of three conventional subs at the purchaser yard under ToT arrangements through a letter dated August 13, 2007.
It was very surprising that the officer sought information after accepting the offer of supplying three conventional U-214 subs from the German firm. The authorities made twisted general specifications, which made the whole process non-transparent and unfair, said the source.
Investigations and background briefings from officials in the Ministry of Defence Production and the Pakistan Navy revealed that following the French protest at the highest level, the Defence Production Division requested the French DCNS (Agosta-90B fame company and leader of the European market in subs production) to submit a “Scorpene” offer as Pakistan’s choice. Scorpene is one of the top class submarines and is being supplied to India as well.
However, the offer of Scorpene was rejected as it was found technically unacceptable by the Pakistan Navy, said the source, adding that no reason was given for this. A comparison between French Scorpene and German U-214 will show that Scorpene subs have been ordered by three different navies and two of them have been in service for more than two years.
Conversely, the German U-214 submarine has been ordered by two navies only and none of them is in service. In fact, the first class “Papanikolis” has been rejected twice by a NAT navy (Greek Navy). And the tender mentioned that the proposed design should be in service in a parent/foreign navy.
“As no U-214 is in service in any navy of the world, the German offer is not compliant with IT and should have been rejected,” said a senior official. The scrutiny process of selecting German subs does not take into account the existing Agosta-90B capabilities which in case of a U-214 selection have to be fully redeveloped.
The Defence Production Division, disclosed the official, refused to consider the French offer which consists of building Scorpene submarines in Karachi for export and maintaining those operated by foreign navies there. The aim of this offer is to maintain the key assets developed in the framework of the Agosta-90B contract.
However, it was shocking when the chief of naval staff and the secretary Defence Production did not reply to the DCNS chairman’s official additional offer, which consists of upgrading free of charge the three Agosta-90B’s combat management system, said the source. This offer, he said, creates added value for the Pakistan Navy and spares foreign currency to the country.
During the scrutiny, the Defence Production Division did not take into account the fact that the German offer included technologies subject to the US Congress clearance. It is a too dangerous aspect, as no Pakistani can rely on the US or its legislative forums. Pakistan is a victim of US sanctions.
“The whole matter needs to be investigated at the highest forum in Pakistan,” said a senior official, adding that the scrutiny process of purchasing German subs would create problems for naval defence in future.
Pakistan, if it goes the Germany way, would jeopardise the long cooperation established with France by avoiding competition in the $1 billion purchase of submarines. When asked why Pakistan was buying German subs instead of French, Director Munitions Production AVM Shaukat Mehmood told The News on Friday that the choice of purchasing new subs had been received from the Naval Headquarters (NHQ). “The technical committee of the Pakistan Navy has obviously carried out elaborate analysis of different options and they chose the best,” he said. “The German subs are selected by NHQ.”
Pak Navy opts for little known German subs
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has almost decided to purchase German-manufactured U-214 submarines worth $1 billion on a single source basis.
Senior officials confirmed this huge sale-purchase deal for the U-214 submarines for the Pakistan Navy but confided to The News that the offer was not in compliance with the invitation of the tender issued on May 10, 2006. Also, the submarines are not much known as no such subs are in service with any navy of the world.
The Defence Production Ministry and its technical evaluators, including senior naval officers, rejected a far-better French Marlin even without opening a tender for the said submarines for obvious reasons, alleged a senior official.
French authorities, including former French president Chirac, had protested to President General Pervez Musharraf some time back this flat rejection of their offer. The president, said the source, had assured his French counterpart that the scrutiny process of purchasing submarines would be transparent and fair. But the authorities and those linked to this project masterminded the French offer to be outclassed, though Pakistan had ordered and operated three generations of French submarines in the last 40 years.
The two last subs have been produced in Karachi by means of a successful Transfer of Technology (ToT), as key human and industrial assets are the result of a long and fruitful cooperation between Pakistan and France. This resulted in Pakistan’s joining of a very select club of submarine builders.
One senior official said that after partial selection of the German HDW (Howaldtswearke — Deutsche Werft), a senior Defence Production official, Commander Nisar Ahmed, who is assistant director Munitions Production (Navy), raised many queries on the proposal from the HDW for the construction of three conventional subs at the purchaser yard under ToT arrangements through a letter dated August 13, 2007.
It was very surprising that the officer sought information after accepting the offer of supplying three conventional U-214 subs from the German firm. The authorities made twisted general specifications, which made the whole process non-transparent and unfair, said the source.
Investigations and background briefings from officials in the Ministry of Defence Production and the Pakistan Navy revealed that following the French protest at the highest level, the Defence Production Division requested the French DCNS (Agosta-90B fame company and leader of the European market in subs production) to submit a “Scorpene” offer as Pakistan’s choice. Scorpene is one of the top class submarines and is being supplied to India as well.
However, the offer of Scorpene was rejected as it was found technically unacceptable by the Pakistan Navy, said the source, adding that no reason was given for this. A comparison between French Scorpene and German U-214 will show that Scorpene subs have been ordered by three different navies and two of them have been in service for more than two years.
Conversely, the German U-214 submarine has been ordered by two navies only and none of them is in service. In fact, the first class “Papanikolis” has been rejected twice by a NAT navy (Greek Navy). And the tender mentioned that the proposed design should be in service in a parent/foreign navy.
“As no U-214 is in service in any navy of the world, the German offer is not compliant with IT and should have been rejected,” said a senior official. The scrutiny process of selecting German subs does not take into account the existing Agosta-90B capabilities which in case of a U-214 selection have to be fully redeveloped.
The Defence Production Division, disclosed the official, refused to consider the French offer which consists of building Scorpene submarines in Karachi for export and maintaining those operated by foreign navies there. The aim of this offer is to maintain the key assets developed in the framework of the Agosta-90B contract.
However, it was shocking when the chief of naval staff and the secretary Defence Production did not reply to the DCNS chairman’s official additional offer, which consists of upgrading free of charge the three Agosta-90B’s combat management system, said the source. This offer, he said, creates added value for the Pakistan Navy and spares foreign currency to the country.
During the scrutiny, the Defence Production Division did not take into account the fact that the German offer included technologies subject to the US Congress clearance. It is a too dangerous aspect, as no Pakistani can rely on the US or its legislative forums. Pakistan is a victim of US sanctions.
“The whole matter needs to be investigated at the highest forum in Pakistan,” said a senior official, adding that the scrutiny process of purchasing German subs would create problems for naval defence in future.
Pakistan, if it goes the Germany way, would jeopardise the long cooperation established with France by avoiding competition in the $1 billion purchase of submarines. When asked why Pakistan was buying German subs instead of French, Director Munitions Production AVM Shaukat Mehmood told The News on Friday that the choice of purchasing new subs had been received from the Naval Headquarters (NHQ). “The technical committee of the Pakistan Navy has obviously carried out elaborate analysis of different options and they chose the best,” he said. “The German subs are selected by NHQ.”
Gripenator
Banned Member
"Also, the submarines are not much known as no such subs are in service with any navy of the world."
This is false-the U214 SSK design (an advanced derivative of the Type 209 instead of the U212 which is an entirely new design) has been ordered by the Hellenic Navy and the ROK Navy-the “Papanikolis” has been in service as of last month.
The deal for 3 subs at only US$1 billion?
I would be jumping for joy if I was the CINC of the PN should this be true.
This is false-the U214 SSK design (an advanced derivative of the Type 209 instead of the U212 which is an entirely new design) has been ordered by the Hellenic Navy and the ROK Navy-the “Papanikolis” has been in service as of last month.
The deal for 3 subs at only US$1 billion?
I would be jumping for joy if I was the CINC of the PN should this be true.
And is it not as if german subs are not known all around the golbe. U209 is the most exported western SSK design.
And it is a little bit difficult with the greeks. Just recently I have seen one of their ordered U214 still at the pier in Kiel because they are late with their payment...
And it is a little bit difficult with the greeks. Just recently I have seen one of their ordered U214 still at the pier in Kiel because they are late with their payment...
Spacearrow99
Member
The price of the competing subs had to be the most important factor. If The Germans, give them a complete technology transfer the deal is very good. The marlin SKK design is new and has a higher cost, but the PN would,ve got a complete technology transfer of the new design. A new AIP (no technical data released) system would be installed on the Marlin.
what you have right now cannot be called a surface fleet, the F-22Ps are definitely using Chinese sonar. Why don't you show some source that PN thinks it can produce better sonar than the French for Agosta?
I'm giving it realistic expectations. It's like saying China starting plans to develop a commercial jetliner now, it won't compare to what Boeing/Airbus will develop at the same time -> realistic expectations.
are you telling me you are not of Pakistani descent?
PRC does not transfer its best stuff
Spacearrow99
Member
Compared to the Scorpene, whose MESMA runs on ethanol, the AIP of Marlin will run on the gas oil, which will make it possible to have only one type of reserve fuel, feeding at the same time this system, but also the diesel engines.
Outside, the principal difference of Marlin compared to Scorpène will lie in the adoption of diving ruders in the shape of cross of Saint Andre. This device, will also be on the nuclear attack submarines of Barracuda type, its allows for better maneuverability.
Thales submarine hardware is very good; the Seawolfs use Thales hardware on some of their sensors, including sonars.
If the project doesn't have big cost overruns, and Pakistan gets the full technology transfer, then its great for the PN. Like Waylande said, every new vessels comes with risk, but Pakistan would've acquired advanced technical data. I think all three of the U214s will be built in Germany.
Outside, the principal difference of Marlin compared to Scorpène will lie in the adoption of diving ruders in the shape of cross of Saint Andre. This device, will also be on the nuclear attack submarines of Barracuda type, its allows for better maneuverability.
Thales submarine hardware is very good; the Seawolfs use Thales hardware on some of their sensors, including sonars.
If the project doesn't have big cost overruns, and Pakistan gets the full technology transfer, then its great for the PN. Like Waylande said, every new vessels comes with risk, but Pakistan would've acquired advanced technical data. I think all three of the U214s will be built in Germany.
radiosilence
jints
what info. do have on the platform?
No. I tried to point that out to you a couple of times.
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radiosilence
jints
According to this article which is in German, the plan is to assemble all 3 submarines in Pakistan from kits provided by Germany.
link