Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

contedicavour

New Member
with all the priorities the Pakistani Navy has (new SSKs & FFGs) why should it embark on SSNs ?? Especially as I doubt that the US would help out financially on this item...
May be it's a way to react to the Indian-US deal on nuclear power... but it could backfire by persuading current Indian opponents to agree to the American deal !

cheers
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
with all the priorities the Pakistani Navy has (new SSKs & FFGs) why should it embark on SSNs ?? Especially as I doubt that the US would help out financially on this item...
May be it's a way to react to the Indian-US deal on nuclear power... but it could backfire by persuading current Indian opponents to agree to the American deal !

cheers
This is not a new development, the actual gorund work ie research/paper work for a SSN/SSBN was done in the 90s, but at the time due to i would say the short sightedness of the decision makers it was put on the back burner.

Who said any thing about the US, they wont even give us reactors for producing electricity.

The US-india nuclear deal is a done deal and all you see is gimickery exhibited by the two. Pakistan is planning to built 5-6 more nuclear reactors wit Chinese help.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Don't be. You do know about the Akula II story reported by India Today..this is the reaction.
Not everything done in Pakistan is in reaction to India's actions. Every nuclear state attempts to have a nuclear submarine to establish/achieve credible "2nd strike" capability.

This is not the 1st time that the officials have talked about nuclear subs in Pakistan. It all started during the Prime Ministership of Zulfika Ali Bhutto (1970s), it was again brought up in late 1980s & in early 1990s it was rumored that Pakistan has been making some attempts (what attempts or what kind of attempts were made is not known). In 2000 it was again brought up. The only thing now is that for the 1st time head of the state has openly stated about having nuclear submarine in PN - which I am translating in to "PN will have nuclear submarine (in future)". What ever has been done in all these years probably might not have gone in vain - but who knows.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Not everything done in Pakistan is in reaction to India's actions. Every nuclear state attempts to have a nuclear submarine to establish/achieve credible "2nd strike" capability.

This is not the 1st time that the officials have talked about nuclear subs in Pakistan. It all started during the Prime Ministership of Zulfika Ali Bhutto (1970s), it was again brought up in late 1980s & in early 1990s it was rumored that Pakistan has been making some attempts (what attempts or what kind of attempts were made is not known). In 2000 it was again brought up. The only thing now is that for the 1st time head of the state has openly stated about having nuclear submarine in PN - which I am translating in to "PN will have nuclear submarine (in future)". What ever has been done in all these years probably might not have gone in vain - but who knows.
Unless we're talking about a boomer (SSBN) I don't really see what role a SSN would have. The navy's role is mainly the defence of the coastline, not hunting for Indian carriers in faraway seas or of launching cruise missiles into Indian harbours, while the Pakistani coastline is under attack ?? If this were correct, I would presume funding should go to modern FFGs (a lot of discussion underway about further Chinese frigates or second hand European ones) and SSKs (the Agosta 90B and AIP Marlin or U214 debate). If more funding were available, buying a squadron of anti-shipping fighterbombers would also be an excellent idea.

cheers
 
Unless we're talking about a boomer (SSBN) I don't really see what role a SSN would have. The navy's role is mainly the defence of the coastline, not hunting for Indian carriers in faraway seas or of launching cruise missiles into Indian harbours, while the Pakistani coastline is under attack ?? If this were correct, I would presume funding should go to modern FFGs (a lot of discussion underway about further Chinese frigates or second hand European ones) and SSKs (the Agosta 90B and AIP Marlin or U214 debate). If more funding were available, buying a squadron of anti-shipping fighterbombers would also be an excellent idea.

cheers
Perhaps having credible second strike capability is their motivation? SSN can stay submerged longer than SSK thus reducing the risk of being detected. To a certain extent it will deter the IN from blockaging their ports.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Perhaps having credible second strike capability is their motivation? SSN can stay submerged longer than SSK thus reducing the risk of being detected. To a certain extent it will deter the IN from blockaging their ports.
I thought that's why they are buying AIP SSKs... unless the PN plans to blockade ports as far away as the eastern side of the Indian coastline... which would IMHO be a waste of resources while the coastline back home would be battered to pieces by the bulk of the Indian navy...
Though may be I'm too defensive in my strategy.

cheers
 

nero

New Member
.

i think What pakistan means is to have nuclear-tipped missiles fired from its modified SSKs rather than developing a SSN

.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #530
Nero, that would really be a far-fetched idea. PN has no intention of having nuclear tipped ballistic missiles on board its submarines, at least not for now. They haven't even considered modifying any platforms yet to carry the newly developed cruise missile capability.

Babur is land based, while Raad is to be launched via fighter jets. Perhaps there is a naval version in the works but so far, it hasn't come to light
 

BilalK

New Member
I thought that's why they are buying AIP SSKs... unless the PN plans to blockade ports as far away as the eastern side of the Indian coastline... which would IMHO be a waste of resources while the coastline back home would be battered to pieces by the bulk of the Indian navy...
Though may be I'm too defensive in my strategy.

cheers
Well we need to consider development, production and trial time on a possible SSN or SSBN project. It reminds me of the history of Pakistan's nuclear weapons program when a proposal for such capability was initially given in the early 1960s. However it was in the mid-1970s when the project was finally given the green. The then Prime Minister's motto when he answered financial concerns about the nuclear weapons program was along the lines of, "we'll eat grass, but we'll have the bomb". In this case, you could change it to, "we'll drink salt water, but we'll have the 'nuclear submarine'".

Besides, the time-scale will be an issue...I don't think an industry record of 2 license built Agosta-90Bs will cut the requirements for a SSN. There's also the whole issue of miniaturized reactors and the range of issues that surround them, like safety, efficiency, output, etc. It will probably be at least 15 years before we see the first Pakistani SSN enter sea-trials...by then the Pakistani industry would have a huge belt of experience and know-how compared to today.
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #532
With all due respect to everyone, I think, talk of nuclear powered submarines for PN is just ridiculous. It does NOT suit force structure & doctrine. PN's surface fleet is in tatters & only an idiot in the PN would consider launching an ambitious SSBN program. First and foremost, PN needs to upgrade massively with regards to its surface fleet before even thinking about anything else.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
This is not a new development, the actual gorund work ie research/paper work for a SSN/SSBN was done in the 90s, but at the time due to i would say the short sightedness of the decision makers it was put on the back burner.

Who said any thing about the US, they wont even give us reactors for producing electricity.

The US-india nuclear deal is a done deal and all you see is gimickery exhibited by the two. Pakistan is planning to built 5-6 more nuclear reactors wit Chinese help.
short sightedness? do you have any idea of the amount of resource it takes to develop a nuclear sub? Pakistan doesn't even have the capability of designing its own nuclear reactors? How is it going to develop one that is going to be safe enough and small enough for a nuclear sub? I can't even express how ridiculous this proposal sounds. You might as well stop procuring anything else, because that's how much nuclear programs like this is going to cost Pakistan. And once it comes out, it will probably be at the same noise level as unmodified 091/2.
 
short sightedness? do you have any idea of the amount of resource it takes to develop a nuclear sub? Pakistan doesn't even have the capability of designing its own nuclear reactors? How is it going to develop one that is going to be safe enough and small enough for a nuclear sub? I can't even express how ridiculous this proposal sounds. You might as well stop procuring anything else, because that's how much nuclear programs like this is going to cost Pakistan. And once it comes out, it will probably be at the same noise level as unmodified 091/2.
I think its safe to assume that they are embarking on the project as per the report. No one expects it be finish tomorrow. As far as cost and maintance goes, i would think that the strategic planners have taken those decision into consideration before giving the go ahead. Speculating about the noise level and capability of the platform without even seeing the finish product is not being prudent.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I think its safe to assume that they are embarking on the project as per the report. No one expects it be finish tomorrow. As far as cost and maintance goes, i would think that the strategic planners have taken those decision into consideration before giving the go ahead. Speculating about the noise level and capability of the platform without even seeing the finish product is not being prudent.
- Pakistan has never developed its own submarines
- it cannot even build a diesel sub without France supplying some of the necessary parts
- it does not have military grade sonar or torpedo
- it has never developed any advanced submarine propeller
- I don't think it has ever developed any combat system for submarines
- gary can help me here of the subcomponents you need that Pakistan has never developed
- Pakistan needs China to help it build a 300 MW civilian reactor, how can it develop a 90 MW reactor up to the military specs? (think about the separation between the crew and the reactor, do you dare to operate the sub when you have an unsafe reactor in there?)
- does it have the steel needed for a nuclear sub?
- does it have a shipyard that's capable of building a 6000 tonne sub?
- It needed a loan from China just to purchase 4 F-22Ps for $600 million. A nuclear sub would easily cost $1 billion and that's not including any of the research and development cost.
- which goes back to the original question, how is it going to develop a nuclear sub when it has never developed even a diesel sub?
 

contedicavour

New Member
Besides, IIRC even China can't help Pakistan on developing military nuclear reactors, given international guidelines on nuclear tech exports.
And even if China perfectly knows how to to build reactors, the Han class SSN isn't exactly the best example ;)

cheers
 

WAR

New Member
Pakistan -- A sui-generis country!!!

- Pakistan has never developed its own submarines
- it cannot even build a diesel sub without France supplying some of the necessary parts
- it does not have military grade sonar or torpedo
- it has never developed any advanced submarine propeller
- I don't think it has ever developed any combat system for submarines
- gary can help me here of the subcomponents you need that Pakistan has never developed
- Pakistan needs China to help it build a 300 MW civilian reactor, how can it develop a 90 MW reactor up to the military specs? (think about the separation between the crew and the reactor, do you dare to operate the sub when you have an unsafe reactor in there?)
- does it have the steel needed for a nuclear sub?
- does it have a shipyard that's capable of building a 6000 tonne sub?
- It needed a loan from China just to purchase 4 F-22Ps for $600 million. A nuclear sub would easily cost $1 billion and that's not including any of the research and development cost.
- which goes back to the original question, how is it going to develop a nuclear sub when it has never developed even a diesel sub?

On face value, all the above statements/judgements/analysis are true. Pakistan and PN does lack all the above.

BUT

There is always the first time. If PN is thinking of SSN and the related equipment, it would get it (though it is not possible to give a time frame at this juncture).


Now in a light humour:

--Pakistan is a sui-generis country, with sui-generis people and with sui-generis problems!!! We usually talk and go for such things which seems far-fetched and an outcome of true fiction.

--At the same time we take strength from the quote that "Live with the existence of God, and God will appear to you".

Cheers.
 
- Pakistan has never developed its own submarines
- it cannot even build a diesel sub without France supplying some of the necessary parts
- it does not have military grade sonar or torpedo
- it has never developed any advanced submarine propeller
- I don't think it has ever developed any combat system for submarines
- gary can help me here of the subcomponents you need that Pakistan has never developed
- Pakistan needs China to help it build a 300 MW civilian reactor, how can it develop a 90 MW reactor up to the military specs? (think about the separation between the crew and the reactor, do you dare to operate the sub when you have an unsafe reactor in there?)
- does it have the steel needed for a nuclear sub?
- does it have a shipyard that's capable of building a 6000 tonne sub?
- It needed a loan from China just to purchase 4 F-22Ps for $600 million. A nuclear sub would easily cost $1 billion and that's not including any of the research and development cost.
- which goes back to the original question, how is it going to develop a nuclear sub when it has never developed even a diesel sub?
I said embarking on the Project as per the report. No doubt, they have an uphill battle ahead of them but they have climbed bigger hills before ;) .
 
Last edited:

aaaditya

New Member
- Pakistan has never developed its own submarines
- it cannot even build a diesel sub without France supplying some of the necessary parts
- it does not have military grade sonar or torpedo
- it has never developed any advanced submarine propeller
- I don't think it has ever developed any combat system for submarines
- gary can help me here of the subcomponents you need that Pakistan has never developed
- Pakistan needs China to help it build a 300 MW civilian reactor, how can it develop a 90 MW reactor up to the military specs? (think about the separation between the crew and the reactor, do you dare to operate the sub when you have an unsafe reactor in there?)
- does it have the steel needed for a nuclear sub?
- does it have a shipyard that's capable of building a 6000 tonne sub?
- It needed a loan from China just to purchase 4 F-22Ps for $600 million. A nuclear sub would easily cost $1 billion and that's not including any of the research and development cost.
- which goes back to the original question, how is it going to develop a nuclear sub when it has never developed even a diesel sub?
i believe ,developing the reactor containment vessel is the biggest challenge which will take atleast a decade of advanced research without any assistance ,but with china's assistance ,the time period can be reduced to about half.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I said embarking on the Project as per the report. No doubt, they have an uphill battle ahead of them but they have climbed bigger hills before ;) .
what bigger hills have they climbed? And even if you get something out, what do you think it will be? Will the reactor be any safer than what's on 091? I doubt it.
 
Top