I do not think the Royal Navy will be retiring either Type 22 or Type 23 before 2015; if Pakistan were to procure used frigates, they would most likely be Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates. We may procure used frigates from China, but I doubt the PN would due to lack of performance.
Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter mysterious
- Start date
contedicavour
New Member
Fully agree. Beyond OHPs the other potential sources of second-hand modern frigates could be the French Tourville and Leygues large FFGs (actually called destroyers, but they are large ASW frigates) and the Italian Maestrale FFGs as of 2010 when the FREMM become operational. Also the Germans have their Bremen frigates (almost clones to the Kortenaers/Elli) that will be retired around 2010 - at least the first 4 of the class.BilalK said:
cheers
Completely agree, the PN would be extremely lucky to get frigates that are less than 15 years old; we're more likely to get late-1970 and early to late-1980 era warships. Not a lot of navies retire a vessel they commissioned as early as 1996. Perhaps Type 23 and M Class will be available for sale, but its likely those will be sold to Western navies (higher bidders). The Bremen and Maestrale Class FFGs would be possible acquisitions when available.
Last edited:
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1033053
Pakistan to gift old submarines to Bangladesh Navy Josy Joseph
The Pakistan gift would provide the Bangladesh Navy its first underwater capabilties.
NEW DELHI: In a strategic decision that Indian policy planners are trying to comprehend, Pakistan has agreed to gift two of its old submarines to Bangladesh Navy.
Authoritative sources in the establishment told DNA that Pakistani authorities agreed to the gift when Bangladesh Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia visited Pakistan from February 12 to 14 earlier this year.
Pakistani authorities would refurbish and refit two of its old submarines for the Bangladesh Navy under the agreement.
The Pakistan gift would provide the Bangladesh Navy its first underwater capabilities. This raises several questions regarding Bangladesh’s strategic planning and forecast for the region.
As the information begin to trickle down to policy makers here, the new strength of Bangladeshi Navy is bewildering them. But they admit that they will have to ingrain Dhaka’s new strength into Indian strategic plans.
Sources said Pakistan would be refurbishing two of its Daphne class submarines, which are being decommissioned presently, and give it to Bangladesh Navy. Pakistan Navy had acquired four Daphne class submarined from France in 1969-70.
The Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor, which sunk Indian naval ship Khukri during 1971 war, was decommisioned on January 2, 2006 and is reportedly being converted into a museum ship.
Sources said the the two-submarine deal was the high point of Bangaldesh Prime Minister's visit to Pakistan. The deal was kept under wraps, but New Delhi now has authoritative information through its intelligence channels about Pakistan's strategic move.
Pakistan Navy has a small submarine arm and is presently in the process of inducting Agosta-90B submarines from France.
Sources watching Bangladesh are mystified by the move, given its small navy of just over 10,000 personnel. The Bangladesh Navy is limited mostly to coastal patrolling and is getting a modern frigate built in South Korea.
Indian efforts to woo the Bangladesh Navy, with a possible gift of a ship, has not gone too far. Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash had undertaken a visit to Bangladesh in December, and had made several offers including training for its personnel in Indian facilities and assistance on various other fronts.
Pakistan to gift old submarines to Bangladesh Navy Josy Joseph
The Pakistan gift would provide the Bangladesh Navy its first underwater capabilties.
NEW DELHI: In a strategic decision that Indian policy planners are trying to comprehend, Pakistan has agreed to gift two of its old submarines to Bangladesh Navy.
Authoritative sources in the establishment told DNA that Pakistani authorities agreed to the gift when Bangladesh Prime Minister Begum Khaleda Zia visited Pakistan from February 12 to 14 earlier this year.
Pakistani authorities would refurbish and refit two of its old submarines for the Bangladesh Navy under the agreement.
The Pakistan gift would provide the Bangladesh Navy its first underwater capabilities. This raises several questions regarding Bangladesh’s strategic planning and forecast for the region.
As the information begin to trickle down to policy makers here, the new strength of Bangladeshi Navy is bewildering them. But they admit that they will have to ingrain Dhaka’s new strength into Indian strategic plans.
Sources said Pakistan would be refurbishing two of its Daphne class submarines, which are being decommissioned presently, and give it to Bangladesh Navy. Pakistan Navy had acquired four Daphne class submarined from France in 1969-70.
The Daphne class submarine PNS Hangor, which sunk Indian naval ship Khukri during 1971 war, was decommisioned on January 2, 2006 and is reportedly being converted into a museum ship.
Sources said the the two-submarine deal was the high point of Bangaldesh Prime Minister's visit to Pakistan. The deal was kept under wraps, but New Delhi now has authoritative information through its intelligence channels about Pakistan's strategic move.
Pakistan Navy has a small submarine arm and is presently in the process of inducting Agosta-90B submarines from France.
Sources watching Bangladesh are mystified by the move, given its small navy of just over 10,000 personnel. The Bangladesh Navy is limited mostly to coastal patrolling and is getting a modern frigate built in South Korea.
Indian efforts to woo the Bangladesh Navy, with a possible gift of a ship, has not gone too far. Indian Navy chief Admiral Arun Prakash had undertaken a visit to Bangladesh in December, and had made several offers including training for its personnel in Indian facilities and assistance on various other fronts.
Islamabad Wants U.S. Harpoon Missiles To Arm Subs
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS
France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.
But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile makerMBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.
Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.
“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.
A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.
Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.
In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.
Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment
Obstacles
Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.
Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.
Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.
Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.
Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.
These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.
But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.
“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.
One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •
Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report
===============
===============
There is no link to this report yet, but it has been posted on numerous forums; someone can go and email the news site which made this.
By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS
France has cleared Armaris to offer three patrol submarines to Pakistan, lifting a bureaucratic barrier to the naval export company’s efforts to sell the planned Marlin SSK boat, a French defense executive said.
But there is another snag on the horizon: Pakistan wants its new subs to come with the Boeing Harpoon antiship missile, not the Exocet SM39 from European missile makerMBDA, the executive said. Acquiring the Harpoons won’t be the problem. White House officials notified Congress on May 31 that Boeing intends to sell 130 of the missiles, including 30 submarine-launched versions and related equipment, to Pakistan for $370 million. But offering the U.S. missile over the European one could draw opposition from the French government and other local firms.
Armaris is vying to supply Pakistan with three single-hulled, diesel-electric submarines equipped with air-independent propulsion, a deal likely to be worth $1 billion to $1.2 billion. Pakistani officials have said they also would consider the Class 214 submarine from Germany’s Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW) or a Chinese sub. Italian and Russian bids also are expected.
“It will be a very, very tough competition,” the French executive said. India in October purchased six Scorpene boats from Armaris, and construction of the first boat began April 28 with the cutting of the first hull plate in Cherbourg, France, which will be sent to India, where Mazagon Docks will build and outfit the six boats under Armaris’ supervision as prime contractor.
A victory in Pakistan would likely mean a launch customer for the Marlin, which will be an upgrade to state-owned shipbuilder DCN’s 10-year-old Scorpene submarine technology, and a new entry to compete in a crowded market. Just getting this far has been a protracted process for Armaris, a marketing joint venture between DCN and Thales.
Before a French arms maker can offer weapons to a foreign customer, the company must receive the approval of the high-level Commission Interministérielle d’Etude et d’Exportation de Matériel de Guerre (CIEEMG). If buyer and seller then come to an agreement, the sale also must be authorized by the CIEEMG. In January, the CIEEMG withheld its approval, reportedly so as not to upset Pakistan’s regional rival India. Nevertheless, Armaris officials made an informal pitch to a Pakistani delegation several weeks later.
In February, Indian officials signed contracts to buy six Exocet-armed Scorpene subs and 43 Airbus airliners worth $2.5 billion at list prices. On May 10, Armaris received a formal invitation from Pakistan to bid on the three subs, and subsequently received the CIEEMG’s approval to do so, the defense executive said. A Pakistan official confirmed that authorization had been granted for the sale.
“It’s good news,” he said.
Officials from the French Defense Ministry and the Délégation Générale pour l’Armament procurement office were not immediately available for comment
Obstacles
Coming up with a deal that satisfies all concerned will be challenging. Among the difficult parts is “how to make an offer that does not upset India,” the xecutive said. Among other considerations, New Delhi, which plans to buy more than 100 jet fighters, is currently deciding between France’s Dassault Rafale and other foreign aircraft, including the F-16 built by Lockheed Martin, the F/A-18E/F by Boeing, the JAS 39 Gripen by Sweden’s Saab and the MiG-29M, offered by Russia’s Irkut.
Another potential stumbling block is Islamabad’s request for technology transfer as part of the sub deal, which raises the spectre of Pakistani defense firms soon competing against French ones.
Yet another sticky wicket is Pakistan’s interest in the Harpoon missile.Islamabad wants the Harpoon because it offers longer range, more accuracy, and potentially fewer export approval delays than the Exocet, the Pakistani official said. But French industry has been given to understand its government’s export committee will never authorize the Marlin sale if it means putting a U.S. weapon on a French platform, the executive said. A pick of the Harpoon would pose the question: Who would pay for the weapon’s integration, said Robbin Laird, an analyst with ICSA, a consulting firm based here and in Washington. It was unlikely Pakistan had the money to pay for the work and France would balk at paying to integrate an American weapon on a French submarine, he said. “We wouldn’t,” he added.
Even if Pakistan were to pay for the integration, France would ask whether it was in DCN’s interest to do it, he said. An alternative would be a buy of a German boat, he said. But the terms would have to be right for German industry, which is unlikely to sell at a loss. As for whether the Harpoon was a better weapon, much depended on the Pakistan Navy’s mission requirement, Laird said.
Pakistan already operates French subs, thanks to a 1994 deal to buy and build three Agosta 90B Khalid boats. The first was built by DCN at its Cherbourg yard, the second was assembled in Karachi Naval Dockyard, and the third boat is being fitted with the Mesma air-independent propulsion system, also in Pakistan.
These subs were sold with Exocets. They are capable of firing the Harpoon, but this has not been tested, the French executive said. “They are fitted for, but no tests have been done,” he said. The schedule for the new sub program is tight. Formal offers are due in July, and Pakistan wants to pick a winner by the end of the year.
But the French executive said that preparing the offer could take six months, thanks to Pakistan’s unusually detailed specifications — for example, the number of propeller blades. “That’s the first time I have seen that,” the executive said.
“The Indian Ocean is an ocean we’re very interested in and we want to continue engaging with all the countries in the region, including Pakistan,” said Rear Adm. Joseph Walsh, the director of the U.S. Navy’s Submarine Warfare Division. “It’s in our interest that our friends and allies have robust submarine and stronger naval capabilities in general.”
Indian defense ministry officials said they would watch the development carefully and cautiously.
One Indian analyst said France’s decision to allow Armaris to pitch its submarine to Pakistan seemed baffling, because it would intensify the future debates when India considers buying a French weapon. •
Vago Muradian in Washington and Vivek Raghuvanshi in New Delhi contributed to this report
===============
===============
There is no link to this report yet, but it has been posted on numerous forums; someone can go and email the news site which made this.
F-22P FFG for Pakistan Navy Start Building In Shanghai
The first Chinese FFG F-22P for the Pakistan Navy has start building in Shanghai-Ludong Shipyard , and it will join the Pakistan Navy in 2008 , all the FFG F-22P for Pakistan Navy will have complete at latest in 2013 .
The contract for the project include transfer the technology of the F-22P , and the 4th F-22P will be builded in Pakistan Navy Shipyard , Chinese technician will support the Pakistan technician to command the technology for the manufacture of F-22P , this will help Pakistan People to strengthen their technique in shipdesign and shipbuilding , I thinkthis is the most important part in the Project .
For a part of the project , Haerbin Airplane Manufactory's Z-9 navy-helicopter will afford to Pakistan Navy .
(I am so sorry that I'm poor in English , I hope word is not so difficult to be understand , Thanks)
The first Chinese FFG F-22P for the Pakistan Navy has start building in Shanghai-Ludong Shipyard , and it will join the Pakistan Navy in 2008 , all the FFG F-22P for Pakistan Navy will have complete at latest in 2013 .
The contract for the project include transfer the technology of the F-22P , and the 4th F-22P will be builded in Pakistan Navy Shipyard , Chinese technician will support the Pakistan technician to command the technology for the manufacture of F-22P , this will help Pakistan People to strengthen their technique in shipdesign and shipbuilding , I thinkthis is the most important part in the Project .
For a part of the project , Haerbin Airplane Manufactory's Z-9 navy-helicopter will afford to Pakistan Navy .
(I am so sorry that I'm poor in English , I hope word is not so difficult to be understand , Thanks)
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks Modao, could you please tell us what is the weaponry aboard ?modao said:
Surface-to-surface missiles, surface-to-air, anti-submarine torpedoes ?
thanks again
cheers
SSM - C-802 (a version of it)contedicavour said:Thanks Modao, could you please tell us what is the weaponry aboard ?
Surface-to-surface missiles, surface-to-air, anti-submarine torpedoes ?
thanks again
cheers
SAM - HHQ-7 planned currently
ASW - Z-9C carrying ET-52 (basically a copy of A-244S), the ship itself is fitted with Yu-7 (basically a copy of MK-46)
contedicavour
New Member
Thank you for the information. It is strange that Pakistan wants to operate Chinese SSMs while at the same time they are buying Harpoonstphuang said:
which have better range and electronics than C802. Or even why not buy Exocets since the Agosta 90B SSKs are equipped with SM-39s AFAIK.I'm less surprised on SAM & ASW since these are copies of good French and Italian material, probably the most cost-efficient solution for a Navy with strong budget limitations.
cheers
Pakistan buys chinese weapons cause they come with ToT & than Pakistan also modify & upgrade them. Plus Chinese product are risk free for Pakistan.contedicavour said:Thank you for the information. It is strange that Pakistan wants to operate Chinese SSMs while at the same time they are buying Harpoons
Yes, Harpoons do have better electronics than C-802, but they do not have better range. You are likely to buy C-802 at a far cheaper cost than harpoons. There is no way a Chinese AShM would cost 3 million each. If there is one thing that Chinese navy is not bad at, it's anti-shipping capabilities. If anything, SAM and ASW are the outdated components and need to be updated.contedicavour said:Thank you for the information. It is strange that Pakistan wants to operate Chinese SSMs while at the same time they are buying Harpoons
I'm less surprised on SAM & ASW since these are copies of good French and Italian material, probably the most cost-efficient solution for a Navy with strong budget limitations.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Then what is your assessment of the Chinese copies of Crotale SAM and of the A-244S Finmeccanica torpedo ? If the copy is a good one, the original systems are still very valid.tphuang said:
cheers
They are still in use, but they are not cutting edge technology by any stretch of imagination. And I doubt latest HQ-7 is as good as the latest Crotale. Crotale copies are the most widely equipped SAM in PLAN, but hopefully in the near future, it will start to be replaced by HQ-16.contedicavour said: