Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

Viper75

New Member
MAD boom

aaaditya said:
hey guys ,i found an image of the pakistani navy p3c orion,can someone tell me what is the purpose of the tail sting/what equipment it contains.

That's a MAD boom (Magnetic Anomaly Detection/Detector) - used to fix a submarine contact (after first finding the contact with sonobuoys etc) more precisely before asw weapons release etc. It works by notifying the operator of changes to the earth's magnetic fields caused by a submarine (ok this is simplifying it but that's _generally_ how it works). You'll find similar equipment on several other MPA and ASW helos.

Regards, Viper75
 

P.A.F

New Member
http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/16/top2.htm

Accord with Greece to boost security ties: Deal for four frigates

ATHENS, May 15: Greece will provide four frigates to the Pakistan Navy, two of which will be delivered this year, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said here on Monday. The two countries were looking forward to stronger ties in defence and security-related matters and had agreed on the deal, Mr Aziz told the media team accompanying him on his four-nation visit.

Heading a delegation to Athens, including members of his cabinet, senior officials and businessmen, Mr Aziz is scheduled to meet ministers, ship-owners and commerce board members during his two day stay here.

Without giving details of the deal, Mr Aziz said Pakistan was acquiring used frigates. He said two frigates would be delivered this year and the other two in 2007.

The Hellenic Navy uses Elli class frigates and the same will be provided to Pakistan.

Pakistan has been acquiring defence equipment from various countries to meet its defence needs.

___________________________________________________________

Finally the deal has been signed.
 

contedicavour

New Member
P.A.F said:
http://www.dawn.com/2006/05/16/top2.htm

Accord with Greece to boost security ties: Deal for four frigates

ATHENS, May 15: Greece will provide four frigates to the Pakistan Navy, two of which will be delivered this year, Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said here on Monday. The two countries were looking forward to stronger ties in defence and security-related matters and had agreed on the deal, Mr Aziz told the media team accompanying him on his four-nation visit.

Heading a delegation to Athens, including members of his cabinet, senior officials and businessmen, Mr Aziz is scheduled to meet ministers, ship-owners and commerce board members during his two day stay here.

Without giving details of the deal, Mr Aziz said Pakistan was acquiring used frigates. He said two frigates would be delivered this year and the other two in 2007.

The Hellenic Navy uses Elli class frigates and the same will be provided to Pakistan.

Pakistan has been acquiring defence equipment from various countries to meet its defence needs.

___________________________________________________________

Finally the deal has been signed.
Wow ! great news. So the Greek Navy will most probably order some FREMM frigates. They were very interested in the Italian version (better equipped for AAW).
So the Pakistani Navy will have a mix of new F-22P and second-hand Kortenaer, and eventually some Spruance as well (though with limited weaponry).

cheers
 

BilalK

New Member
The Pakistan Navy has a lot of requirements from now to 2019; this is what I have been collecting from interviews with PN's Naval Chief's since IDEAS 2004.

4 new-built 3000t-4500t frigates
4 new-built 2400t-2800t frigates (done with F-22P)
4 used 2800t-3500t frigates (done with S-Class)
4 new-built 1500t-2400t corvettes or frigates
3-5 new SSK submarines
New medium-lift helicopters to replace Seaking.
New advanced multi-role helicopters to replace Lynx.
New multi-role helicopters to replace Allouette-III (done with Z-9EC).

So there are some heavy requirements in PN and it will take a lot of funds and time to accomplish it.
 

contedicavour

New Member
BilalK said:
The Pakistan Navy has a lot of requirements from now to 2019; this is what I have been collecting from interviews with PN's Naval Chief's since IDEAS 2004.

4 new-built 3000t-4500t frigates
4 new-built 2400t-2800t frigates (done with F-22P)
4 used 2800t-3500t frigates (done with S-Class)
4 new-built 1500t-2400t corvettes or frigates
3-5 new SSK submarines
New medium-lift helicopters to replace Seaking.
New advanced multi-role helicopters to replace Lynx.
New multi-role helicopters to replace Allouette-III (done with Z-9EC).

So there are some heavy requirements in PN and it will take a lot of funds and time to accomplish it.
Thanks, very interesting :)
Do you have an idea of what design (Meko for example) and of what capabilities (AAW, ASW) the new-built 3000-4500t frigates would have ?
And vs the new SSKs, do you know if these include the 3 new-build Agosta 90 design ?

thks again and cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
contedicavour said:
Thanks, very interesting :)
Do you have an idea of what design (Meko for example) and of what capabilities (AAW, ASW) the new-built 3000-4500t frigates would have ?
And vs the new SSKs, do you know if these include the 3 new-build Agosta 90 design ?

thks again and cheers
I think BilalK got his list mixed up somewhere. The 4 Greek frigates to be purchased are used Elli class and displace in the 3000-4500t class at exactly 3,786t full load displacement.

They are armed with:

8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Sea Sparrow launcher (24 missiles, manual reload), 2 76 mm OTO DP, 1 20 mm Phalanx, 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes and can hold 2 light helos.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Big-E said:
I think BilalK got his list mixed up somewhere. The 4 Greek frigates to be purchased are used Elli class and displace in the 3000-4500t class at exactly 3,786t full load displacement.

They are armed with:

8 Harpoon SSM, 1 8-cell Sea Sparrow launcher (24 missiles, manual reload), 2 76 mm OTO DP, 1 20 mm Phalanx, 4 12.75 inch torpedo tubes and can hold 2 light helos.
So what is your assessment regarding Pakistani Navy's final strength ? Most likely not more than 8 frigates (half Kortenaer, half Chinese F-22P), and 5 SSK (2 old Agosta, 3 new Agosta 90B) ?

cheers
 

Big-E

Banned Member
contedicavour said:
So what is your assessment regarding Pakistani Navy's final strength ? Most likely not more than 8 frigates (half Kortenaer, half Chinese F-22P), and 5 SSK (2 old Agosta, 3 new Agosta 90B) ?

cheers
Well the 4 Elli fill the 3,000-4,500 weight class. I think the rest of bilalKs list is right except he's missing the USS Fletcher. I guess that will be a command ship. What a waste of money IMHO.:eek:
 

contedicavour

New Member
Big-E said:
Well the 4 Elli fill the 3,000-4,500 weight class. I think the rest of bilalKs list is right except he's missing the USS Fletcher. I guess that will be a command ship. What a waste of money IMHO.:eek:
The Fletcher is a Spruance class right ?

thks
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
The requirement for the 5-6 new SSKs is in addition to the ones we already have, 2 Agosta-70s and 3 90Bs. BTW the contract for the 90Bs also has 3 more on option. I wish it were exercised but the possibility looks extremely remote.
And what's a waste of money BigE, the Chinese frigates or the Spruance class ddg?
 

contedicavour

New Member
umair said:
The requirement for the 5-6 new SSKs is in addition to the ones we already have, 2 Agosta-70s and 3 90Bs. BTW the contract for the 90Bs also has 3 more on option. I wish it were exercised but the possibility looks extremely remote.
And what's a waste of money BigE, the Chinese frigates or the Spruance class ddg?
I think BigE was talking about the Spruance, since it would be a huge ship but useless without Tomahawks, SM-2s, and ASROCs.
The F-22P are probably a cost-effective buy to replace part of your ex RN Amazons.
Regarding the SSKs, if you are indeed planning on doubling your numbers, wow, that would cost approx 1.6 billion dollars only to build (I mean excl equipment and life cycle costs). Even spread out over 10 years or so, this would severly restrict all other naval acquisition programmes :confused:

cheers
 

mysterious

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #213
I think that the Spruance Class and the Greek Navy's Frigates being acquired is not the best decision taken by PN. Spruance Class is quite dated and the Elli Class frigates that PN would be getting, WILL NOT be given a Mid-Life Upgrade which the other frigates (continuing service with the Greek Navy) would receive.

Why buy out-dated equipment? I do not see sense in this. Perhaps someone would like to better elaborate on this?
 

isthvan

New Member
mysterious said:
I think that the Spruance Class and the Greek Navy's Frigates being acquired is not the best decision taken by PN. Spruance Class is quite dated and the Elli Class frigates that PN would be getting, WILL NOT be given a Mid-Life Upgrade which the other frigates (continuing service with the Greek Navy) would receive.

Why buy out-dated equipment? I do not see sense in this. Perhaps someone would like to better elaborate on this?
Why? Simple reason – money issues… Pakistani economy is not in the best shape so they can’t afford new frigates since they are already buying new SSK… And Elli Class frigates may be old but they are still better then anything that they currently have…
As for Spurance they are overkill, and since they will be striped of half equipment I don’t really see any other reason for their purchase other then having DDG…
 

contedicavour

New Member
isthvan said:
Why? Simple reason – money issues… Pakistani economy is not in the best shape so they can’t afford new frigates since they are already buying new SSK… And Elli Class frigates may be old but they are still better then anything that they currently have…
As for Spurance they are overkill, and since they will be striped of half equipment I don’t really see any other reason for their purchase other then having DDG…
Fully agree. The Kortenaers (or Elli if you use the Greek name) are modern multi-purpose frigates that match well the Indian Godavari Batches 1 and 2, though probably not the modified Krivaks arriving from Russia.
The Spruance is probably just because they need a flagship, such as - if I recall correctly - the big old ex-RN County class DDG that Pakistan had in the '80s and '90s (similar to the ships Chile is deleting now).

cheers
 

SATAN

New Member
umair said:
The requirement for the 5-6 new SSKs is in addition to the ones we already have, 2 Agosta-70s and 3 90Bs. BTW the contract for the 90Bs also has 3 more on option. I wish it were exercised but the possibility looks extremely remote.
And what's a waste of money BigE, the Chinese frigates or the Spruance class ddg?

Actually the AgostaB90 deal signed by Benazir Bhutto and Mitterand in 1994 was a continuation of the orginal deal signed by her father for the Agosta70 subs. The original contract had a stipulation for 3 additional subs which was excercised in 1994. In order to get around that, DCN offered full production rights for the AgostaB90 to Pakistan so that it could build more subs on its own.

india has blocked that option by buying 6 Scorpene Submarines from France.
 

BilalK

New Member
Big-E said:
I think BilalK got his list mixed up somewhere. The 4 Greek frigates to be purchased are used Elli class and displace in the 3000-4500t class at exactly 3,786t full load displacement.
Perhaps, but the words of the PN admiral was for a 3000t+ class; it would either be a new version of F-22P of a new design. He didn't specify whether they will be used or new, but you have to remember - how long can used ships last? The article also mentions a requirement for "roughly four" new submarines - earlier this year Janes said 3-5 new SSKs were required.

Here is the article, nearing two years;
IDEAS: Pakistan plans to buy more ships and boats

JOSHUA KUCERA JDW Staff Reporter
Washington, DC
Additional reporting by Farhan Bokhari JDW Special Correspondent
Islamabad, Pakistan

The Pakistan Navy is seeking to acquire four frigates and four submarines in addition to the four Type F-22P frigates (Jaingwei-II class), currently being negotiated with China, and the three Agosta 90-B submarines being built by France.

"The four ships from the Chinese and the three submarines are not enough to maintain a minimum deterrence," Chief of Navy Staff Adm Shahid Karimullah said. "We need more. The money is being arranged for us to acquire more submarines and more ships."

While acquisition plans are still in the early stages, they depend on uncertain funding sources, the Commander, Pakistan Fleet, Vice Adm Mohammad Faroon, told JDW. However, for now the navy is looking at "roughly four" additional new submarines, he said. "More or fewer are possible, if more or less money becomes available," he said. "You have to look in your pocket and then decide what you can buy."

The navy is still considering a variety of options for the submarines, but is primarily focusing on a single-hull design and air independent propulsion. "These will be the primary things that guide us," Adm Faroon said. The design should be finalised by 2005, with work starting in late 2005 or early 2006 allowing the four boats to be completed by 2011-12, he added.

After production of the F-22Ps is started, Pakistan will again evaluate its needs with an eye to acquiring an additional four frigates, Adm Faroon said. "If our experience with the F-22Ps is good, we may go in for another four, with better sensors, better machinery," he added. The navy is now considering a larger ship - more than 3,000 tons as compared to the 2,400-ton ships under consideration now - with greater endurance, he noted.

Pakistan and China are close to signing a deal for the four F-22P frigates for which they have already been negotiating and only need to work out the details of a loan that China is offering Pakistan, Adm Karimullah said.

"We hope that this loan will be finalised and soon after that we'll be able to sign a contract," he said. China was offering a commercial loan and Pakistan was looking for "friendship" terms, he added.

The ships will be equipped with "at least one" each of the naval version of the Hafei Aviation Industry Z-9C helicopter, Adm Faroon said. However, the rest of the weapons and systems were still under negotiation, he said.

The Pakistan Navy also took delivery earlier this month of two additional Jalalal-class fast attack craft-missile boats. "These are the improved version of the ones we had made about four to five years ago. These are faster, with a more attractive weapon load," Adm Karimullah said.

The procurement plans come amid increasing US-Pakistani naval co-operation (see page 4). Adm Karimullah said one Pakistan Navy destroyer will be patrolling international waters near Pakistan trying to interdict potential insurgent operations. Senior Pakistani government officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Pakistan is offering to support the US naval presence in the northern Arabian Sea, close to the Persian Gulf.

Pakistan has offered to extend unspecified support services to the US Navy if Washington gives consideration to supplying Pakistan with new equipment, such as maritime reconnaissance aircraft, the officials said. "The Pakistan Navy is in the ideal position of being able to be of assistance to the US Navy in such a crucial part of the world," said one government official.

"Our navy can perform a range of functions from assistance in patrolling the waters of the northern Arabian Sea to providing logistical support wherever possible
The wording used by the officer implies that the new heavier frigate would not be chosen before 2009; it could be for financial issues. You can imagine that the same would apply to the new SSK requirement, that it would not be ordered before mid 2007. Earlier this year Janes said that the PN was considering the German U-212/214 series for its SSK requirement; and you have to remember that the Seakings will need to be replaced sometime after 2012. I do not think its far fetched to believe that the PN is hoping for a frigate + submarine + helicopter deal with Germany?
 
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contedicavour

New Member
BilalK said:
Perhaps, but the words of the PN admiral was for a 3000t+ class; it would either be a new version of F-22P of a new design. He didn't specify whether they will be used or new, but you have to remember - how long can used ships last? The article also mentions a requirement for "roughly four" new submarines - earlier this year Janes said 3-5 new SSKs were required.

Here is the article, nearing two years;

The wording used by the officer implies that the new heavier frigate would not be chosen before 2009; it could be for financial issues. You can imagine that the same would apply to the new SSK requirement, that it would not be ordered before mid 2007. Earlier this year Janes said that the PN was considering the German U-212/214 series for its SSK requirement; and you have to remember that the Seakings will need to be replaced sometime after 2012. I do not think its far fetched to believe that the PN is hoping for a frigate + submarine + helicopter deal with Germany?
Very interesting - so the Ex-Dutch ex-Greek Kortenaers (3000+ tons) would be a temporary solution before finding the money to order 4 new frigates, and the total frigate force would be fixed at 8.
I would be surprised is Germany were to win a contract in Pakistan, since France has always dominated new supply contracts for the Navy.

cheers
 
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