Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
So the Old F-16s, bought buy the Shah of Iran, and delivered to Israel instead.....are being refurbished and sold to Pakistan now? Are the airframes even worthy of flying and upgraded at this point?
According to recent reports and statements made by Kohler..the F-16s that Pakistan was going to get would be brand new Block 52s with production starting in 2008. What went wrong?
So the Old F-16s, bought buy the Shah of Iran, and delivered to Israel instead.....are being refurbished and sold to Pakistan now? Are the airframes even worthy of flying and upgraded at this point?
According to recent reports and statements made by Kohler..the F-16s that Pakistan was going to get would be brand new Block 52s with production starting in 2008. What went wrong?
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
It may be because of the price OR this seems to be a faster process instead of making brand new aircraft. according to this report all F-16s should be with us by 2007. So looks like PAF is looking for faster delivery. Karamat said that these aircraft are "first rate by all standards".
It may be because of the price OR this seems to be a faster process instead of making brand new aircraft. according to this report all F-16s should be with us by 2007. So looks like PAF is looking for faster delivery. Karamat said that these aircraft are "first rate by all standards".
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
This is actually standard practice. Countries that buy US weapons commit to selling them back to the US as a form of weapons control. They can't sell them direct.
IIRC US State Dept "owns" them as part of a buy back. The US then either stores them or makes them available for sale (again after State Dept liaison)
There is no "third" country involved as such. They are completely isolated from the on sell process.
P.A.F said:
This is actually standard practice. Countries that buy US weapons commit to selling them back to the US as a form of weapons control. They can't sell them direct.
IIRC US State Dept "owns" them as part of a buy back. The US then either stores them or makes them available for sale (again after State Dept liaison)
There is no "third" country involved as such. They are completely isolated from the on sell process.
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
True, but NATO countries like Belgium already sold off its older F-16s as Spare Parts. Holland,Denmark,Norway dont have that many to retire..i mean 77 isnt a small number. So my guess would be the Israeli Block10 F16s that they were willing to sell to a "friendly country" some years ago. Can a Block5/10 sustain the weapons load, and get the Dorsal spine that the SUFA has?And...is the MLU going to be performed in Forthworth TX or Pakistan?
I do understand the policy of buying back US weapons and refurbish them for a resale . A more recent example would be the 6 Australian C-130s that Canberra was desperate to get rid of, the price being quoted by the Australian government was about $1million USD.So the C-130s were bought back by the US to refit and upgrade them for sale to Pakistan for around $75 million USD for all 6 Transporters. (which by the way have been delayed due to certain structural problems)
True, but NATO countries like Belgium already sold off its older F-16s as Spare Parts. Holland,Denmark,Norway dont have that many to retire..i mean 77 isnt a small number. So my guess would be the Israeli Block10 F16s that they were willing to sell to a "friendly country" some years ago. Can a Block5/10 sustain the weapons load, and get the Dorsal spine that the SUFA has?And...is the MLU going to be performed in Forthworth TX or Pakistan?
I do understand the policy of buying back US weapons and refurbish them for a resale . A more recent example would be the 6 Australian C-130s that Canberra was desperate to get rid of, the price being quoted by the Australian government was about $1million USD.So the C-130s were bought back by the US to refit and upgrade them for sale to Pakistan for around $75 million USD for all 6 Transporters. (which by the way have been delayed due to certain structural problems)
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
Your assuming that US Contractor (LM) is incapable of handling (managing) refurbishment's. An MLU and to a certain extent picking out low flight hour Air Frame would mean you would essentially have a relatively newer AC much cheaper and quicker delivery.
GF, Do you think these would be the stock piled F-16 already in the US. The two F-16 being delivered came from there, didn't they?. It doesn't have to be from another country, the actual source could be any third party including the USAF its self!!
konware said:
Your assuming that US Contractor (LM) is incapable of handling (managing) refurbishment's. An MLU and to a certain extent picking out low flight hour Air Frame would mean you would essentially have a relatively newer AC much cheaper and quicker delivery.
GF, Do you think these would be the stock piled F-16 already in the US. The two F-16 being delivered came from there, didn't they?. It doesn't have to be from another country, the actual source could be any third party including the USAF its self!!
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
Locking thread from dubious source. Also read this: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48272&postcount=619
Locking thread from dubious source. Also read this: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=48272&postcount=619
Re: US to sell 77 'acquired' F-16s to Pakistan: Karamat
It's possible, it's not as if there is a shortage of USAF/Ex-USAF F-16's out at AMARC.
The punchline being what F-16's out at AMARC are considered to be current spec - that kind of points towards ex Euro F-16's.
adsH said:
It's possible, it's not as if there is a shortage of USAF/Ex-USAF F-16's out at AMARC.
The punchline being what F-16's out at AMARC are considered to be current spec - that kind of points towards ex Euro F-16's.
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Elite-Pilot
Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
does this mean possible chances of aquiring new AIM-120,AIM-9L etc?
is this false report,regarding to the old cobra's or is this a new batch?
does this mean possible chances of aquiring new AIM-120,AIM-9L etc?
is this false report,regarding to the old cobra's or is this a new batch?
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Cobra's are hardly state of the art. Apache's are stae of the art. Once again it apopears that the Pakistani military planners are willing to purchase anything available from the US. They should get cheap Mirage F1's and get them equipped with state of the art avionics (like ROSE 3 )
Cobra's are hardly state of the art. Apache's are stae of the art. Once again it apopears that the Pakistani military planners are willing to purchase anything available from the US. They should get cheap Mirage F1's and get them equipped with state of the art avionics (like ROSE 3 )
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Regarding this news, well it seems rather good news to me. For reasons:
1. Any thing 2nd hand (including fighter jets) will be given to Pakistan for FREE. Pakistan only pays for Upgrades e.g: MLU in this case. (This according to deal signed with US after Pakistan was declared MNNA).
2. All upgrades would be done according to latest block configurations.
3. PAF saves money for 3rd fighter to take main stay possition pushing F-16 one step behind.
4. Quick induction (in 2 years).
I was thinking for a long time that because of the 3rd point PAF will may buy more of 2nd hand F-16s.
Seems like PAF has decided its 3rd fighter (probably JAS-39 Gripen).
Regarding this news, well it seems rather good news to me. For reasons:
1. Any thing 2nd hand (including fighter jets) will be given to Pakistan for FREE. Pakistan only pays for Upgrades e.g: MLU in this case. (This according to deal signed with US after Pakistan was declared MNNA).
2. All upgrades would be done according to latest block configurations.
3. PAF saves money for 3rd fighter to take main stay possition pushing F-16 one step behind.
4. Quick induction (in 2 years).
I was thinking for a long time that because of the 3rd point PAF will may buy more of 2nd hand F-16s.
Seems like PAF has decided its 3rd fighter (probably JAS-39 Gripen).
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Elite-Pilot
Banned Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
well,our pilots seem to be familiar with AH-1 but a whole new chopper like AH-64 (apache) which cost about 3 more million wouldnt be a very bad choice,i mean its a good choice but 2 confimations HAVE to be made
1)pilots agree
2)meets PAF standards at affordable price
but for the most part i would agree with you, i have also recently studied that the PAF was analysing Saudi F-15 and apache helicopters at the PAK DEF forum.
the F-15, an air superiority aircraft could definitely power up our air force for a strike and escort role 40 will be enough.C/D could be a good choice as the RSAF is retiring them in the up coming years because they are looking forward to buying new EUROFIGHTERS. Another really striking part is that they have only been up in the clouds for 8,000 hours. but getting another american air craft in our fleet could be a problem considering that they do not always help us when most needed.
another part i would like to tell you is that in the previous years,you know how we bought the 28 F-16's? well we paid for them and never got anything in exchange 680,000$ in total was paid for 28 F-16's but then they only gave us 1/3 of the money back....so we are not ANYTHING free of charge (this is something most people forget)
regarding the F-16 deal i have a question to start with.
it says that they would come from third world countries
Israel
Belgium
Denmark
Norway
Poland
etc.
how many are likely to be used?
BTW..NICE ADJUSTMENTS ON FORUM WEBBY
I LIKE IT
well,our pilots seem to be familiar with AH-1 but a whole new chopper like AH-64 (apache) which cost about 3 more million wouldnt be a very bad choice,i mean its a good choice but 2 confimations HAVE to be made
1)pilots agree
2)meets PAF standards at affordable price
but for the most part i would agree with you, i have also recently studied that the PAF was analysing Saudi F-15 and apache helicopters at the PAK DEF forum.
the F-15, an air superiority aircraft could definitely power up our air force for a strike and escort role 40 will be enough.C/D could be a good choice as the RSAF is retiring them in the up coming years because they are looking forward to buying new EUROFIGHTERS. Another really striking part is that they have only been up in the clouds for 8,000 hours. but getting another american air craft in our fleet could be a problem considering that they do not always help us when most needed.
another part i would like to tell you is that in the previous years,you know how we bought the 28 F-16's? well we paid for them and never got anything in exchange 680,000$ in total was paid for 28 F-16's but then they only gave us 1/3 of the money back....so we are not ANYTHING free of charge (this is something most people forget)
regarding the F-16 deal i have a question to start with.
it says that they would come from third world countries
Israel
Belgium
Denmark
Norway
Poland
etc.
how many are likely to be used?
BTW..NICE ADJUSTMENTS ON FORUM WEBBY
I LIKE ITfieldmarshal
New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
This BS news look at the source people. more like indian sensationalism.
When the bush admin was making a pitch for the sale of the said ac, part of the reason IT QUOTED was:
will create new jobs
keep the existiing plant at fort worth open.
now if PAF gos n buys second hand f-16 how does it fulfill that requirment. n congress will charge the bush admin with purgary or somthing.
I think part of the news is true and may be PAF is buying secondhand f-16 which will be upgraded through mlu. but at the same time it will buy "brand new" f-16 as the deal practically hinges on this part of the deal.
This BS news look at the source people. more like indian sensationalism.
When the bush admin was making a pitch for the sale of the said ac, part of the reason IT QUOTED was:
will create new jobs
keep the existiing plant at fort worth open.
now if PAF gos n buys second hand f-16 how does it fulfill that requirment. n congress will charge the bush admin with purgary or somthing.
I think part of the news is true and may be PAF is buying secondhand f-16 which will be upgraded through mlu. but at the same time it will buy "brand new" f-16 as the deal practically hinges on this part of the deal.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Actually, giving the aircraft the necessary upgrades, like producing the radars, structural parts, etc, all require people to make them, and people to install them. So in a sence, it is providing the U.S jobs, perhaps this is just the beginning, perhaps the PAF will purchase new built F-16s, but in relatively smaller number? We don't know yet, but the PAF acquiring used F-16s, which are very cheap in cost, does suggest a 3rd fighter, and it may be from the U.S, or even Europe!
Relatively low cost, good number, quick delivery (by 2008 maximum), good amount of cash for another jet from another source, this is my kind of game.
Actually, giving the aircraft the necessary upgrades, like producing the radars, structural parts, etc, all require people to make them, and people to install them. So in a sence, it is providing the U.S jobs, perhaps this is just the beginning, perhaps the PAF will purchase new built F-16s, but in relatively smaller number? We don't know yet, but the PAF acquiring used F-16s, which are very cheap in cost, does suggest a 3rd fighter, and it may be from the U.S, or even Europe!
Relatively low cost, good number, quick delivery (by 2008 maximum), good amount of cash for another jet from another source, this is my kind of game.
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Not cheap in cost, FREE in cost as I keep saying. Anything 2nd hand would be given for free to Pakistan. Pakistan only pays for upgrading.
I dont thin third fighter would be from US. PAF wants its fighters to carry combinition of US & Europeans (French mostly) weapons along with mix avionics. So it would be latest European fighters & Gripen seems like it since it is similar to F-16 (hence user friendly in many ways for PAF), has mix avionics systems (from US & Europe) & can carry weapons from both side (e.g: ARMAAMs & MICA).
Yeah, although it sounds bad it isnt, after the MLU the aircraft would be like brand new.
BilalK said:
Not cheap in cost, FREE in cost as I keep saying. Anything 2nd hand would be given for free to Pakistan. Pakistan only pays for upgrading.
I dont thin third fighter would be from US. PAF wants its fighters to carry combinition of US & Europeans (French mostly) weapons along with mix avionics. So it would be latest European fighters & Gripen seems like it since it is similar to F-16 (hence user friendly in many ways for PAF), has mix avionics systems (from US & Europe) & can carry weapons from both side (e.g: ARMAAMs & MICA).
Yeah, although it sounds bad it isnt, after the MLU the aircraft would be like brand new.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
wow, every day you are listening new and exciting news abt PAF. But thats good. I was wondering this from many days that when MLUed 2nd hand F-16 is almost equal to f-16 C/D then why to waste money in buying new ones. It seems PAF is looking for a good quantity of 3rd fighter. GEO ,ARY and almost every local tv channel confirmed the news. The interview was given by karamat after a meeting with president Musharraf. 2 in 2005 20 in 2006 55 in 2007.
wow, every day you are listening new and exciting news abt PAF. But thats good. I was wondering this from many days that when MLUed 2nd hand F-16 is almost equal to f-16 C/D then why to waste money in buying new ones. It seems PAF is looking for a good quantity of 3rd fighter. GEO ,ARY and almost every local tv channel confirmed the news. The interview was given by karamat after a meeting with president Musharraf. 2 in 2005 20 in 2006 55 in 2007.
rafale_2k5
New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
I think this 77 old f-16s is a big mistake 4 watever its worth old shall remain old 4 all its worth , a good solution wouldve been a mix of new n ole MLUs but i guess thats not to be if its true theyll be opening up a maintenance night mare for all its wort , except 4 early delivery schedule there isnt much to this deal, unless theyre skeptical about US promises n trudging the rope cautiously , plus i dont think once F-16s done will PAF have enough resources to for 4 a europeon fighter , except 4 J-10 , n other sister services Navy n Army might not allow it ...... !!!!!!! if they cant afford a blk 50/52 then how come euros or jas-39 (previously refused) can fill in the void!!!
I think this 77 old f-16s is a big mistake 4 watever its worth old shall remain old 4 all its worth , a good solution wouldve been a mix of new n ole MLUs but i guess thats not to be if its true theyll be opening up a maintenance night mare for all its wort , except 4 early delivery schedule there isnt much to this deal, unless theyre skeptical about US promises n trudging the rope cautiously , plus i dont think once F-16s done will PAF have enough resources to for 4 a europeon fighter , except 4 J-10 , n other sister services Navy n Army might not allow it ...... !!!!!!! if they cant afford a blk 50/52 then how come euros or jas-39 (previously refused) can fill in the void!!!
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Let me just clarify a few points as people are jumping to their own conclusions too quickly. the 77 F-16 will not be MLUed. only our present ones will get upgraded with the MLU package. Now we will get 20 F-16 C/D by 2006 after they have been beefed up according to PAF requirements at the US. the rest would come by 2007-2008. These aircraft are first rated as Karamat said (Have low flying hours and are virtually new). now we don't know where these f-16s will come from as yet, so we can't comment on there life span. Pakistan has a full infrastructure for the F-16's so maintainance costs will not rocket upwards.
I personnally think this is a great move as SABRE said because it would get those machines on pakistani soil extreamly faster. there as effective as New C/D models. So basically you can say that this move is hinting that PAf has seen its top-line fighter which it would look to order after india gives out it's order of 126 fighter aircraft.
Let me just clarify a few points as people are jumping to their own conclusions too quickly. the 77 F-16 will not be MLUed. only our present ones will get upgraded with the MLU package. Now we will get 20 F-16 C/D by 2006 after they have been beefed up according to PAF requirements at the US. the rest would come by 2007-2008. These aircraft are first rated as Karamat said (Have low flying hours and are virtually new). now we don't know where these f-16s will come from as yet, so we can't comment on there life span. Pakistan has a full infrastructure for the F-16's so maintainance costs will not rocket upwards.
I personnally think this is a great move as SABRE said because it would get those machines on pakistani soil extreamly faster. there as effective as New C/D models. So basically you can say that this move is hinting that PAf has seen its top-line fighter which it would look to order after india gives out it's order of 126 fighter aircraft.