Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Inducting new equipment is somethig different from having a shopping list. At presnet Pakistan appears to be well behind the times.


On a bright note if Pakistan is developing AAM based on ballistic missiles then it is a positive step forward. I remember reading somewhere that thermoberic type of missiles used against concentrations of aircraft will be the next anti aircraft weapon of choice. The shock wave from the explosion will bring planes down. Simple yet effective. Pakistan missiles have the range as well as the diameter for radar housing to make AAM. All they need is the appropriate guidance system. S3000 system radar from Ukraine should do the job for ground based tracking system if we can't get the Czechs to sell.

how can you develop an air to airmissile based on ballistic missile technology
does this missile follow a ballistic trajectory to hit a target(i doubt if it will have any substantial terminal velocity left)?
an air to air missile requires an active radar and has to be relatively light weight,it also needs ramjet propulsion to provide it with its high speed of engagement.

 

[Elite-Pilot]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Hello people,i am new to this forum and hope to talk to all of you.


Pakistan buys four planes from Indonesia

ISLAMABAD, Sept 18: Pakistan has bought four military transport planes CASA CN-235 from Indonesia. “We have inducted all the four twin-engine planes in our transport fleet,†a PAF official told UNI. He said these planes would cater to the increasing transportation needs of the air force, which faced shortage of military cargo aircraft since the imposition of American sanctions in October 1990.

The PAF will also receive six refurbished C-130 transport aircraft from the US by December. The arrival of these planes will coincide with the delivery of the two F-16s, which the US government will provide free of cost.

Meanwhile, negotiations are underway between the two countries to finalize a deal for the purchase of some 75 F-16s of C and D versions to the PAF.
_____________________

any comments?

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Fieldmarshall,

Re your post 557, just because the PAF and its officers have sacrificed their lives doesn't mean that they know more than an arm chair bandit. On the other hand they are showing an extremely lackadaisical approach towards the needs of the air security of the nation. Today's arm chair bandit living abroad knows more than a well qualified PAF officer about what is available and if that arm chair bandit has been working in the west at a managerial or an executive position, none of these qualified PAF personale can come close to negotiating and working out out preferential deal. The only reason these people are not involved is that the millitary buyers may not get the kickbacks.

You know how incompetent the PAF high ups are----the sanctions have been lifted for almost 4 years now and they are still lying to the public about the aircraft they need to buy. One statement on geo tv mentioned that if we don't get the F16's as we want them to be, we have other plane lined up---I believe that was a person of the rank of a wing commander or higher---whatever plane that was needed should have been ordered at least 3 years ago so that the deliveries should coming in by this time. But PAF is just like a little kid in a candy shop, with the money in one hand but cannot make up his mind what to get. Indecision, indecision, indecision.

The phantom example doesnot hold well now. The game plan now is to fire the first volley BVR and then trun around and take off. The machinery is getting so darn expensive and pilots need so much more to be trained, dog fights are the last thing on today's hi tech airforces list.

If the enemy air force takes out the first dozen aircraft with its BVR's, the morale of the opposition with be right down in the dirt. Fear of loss, not being able to retaliate against the invisible enemy, not knowing where and how the death is coming from are terrifying experiences for any warrior. It turns the blood into water and muscles into jello.

There was another news in geo tv about SD-10. The results are not very encouraging.

I am really really shocked at the attitudes of my pakistani compatriots------all our rhetoric today is based upon two items-----the JF 17 and SD 10------none of these items are in the production stage as of yet and we are betting the welfare and defence of the nation on these two.

Man wt are u sayin...........i mean just listen to ur self. Some of wt you have stated above is nothing short of absurd, even in the catagory of rubish. Dont get me wrong brother but just listen to wt ur saying.

You mean to tell me that a person who has spend 30+ years in the airforce know less about what he he doin than you!, that is totally n utterly absurd.
Yes sanctions were lifted 3-4 years ago but that did not emply that PAk could buy wt ever it wanted at that stage. The nod to buy the fighter ac was given to PAF after the bush elections even then the americans were draging their feet on electrons/weapons package, which has just been resolved.

Thr f-4 example i gave was to highlight the fact that even though their is advanment in tech but that does not mean that the earlier practices/tactics are to be done away with. They work best when the old n the new are employed togather.
The bvr tactics are still unproven in any theater of operation any where in the world. so plz dont count ur chicken before they are hached.

talkin out a dozen or so ac is no piece of cake, the reality is that to this date iaf has feared miserabily against the PAF starting from 48-todate. Even in kargil iaf performance was less than impressive even lost at least two fighter ac n a number of rotary ac.
Some body else on this forum was also sayin that 1 su-30 will take out 6-7 f-16 in a single engagement. Nowthat is funny . all i can say is, ppl dont sell ur self short.
"N u say that dog fighting is the last thing on the minds of air forces around the world".
I think u need to check ur facts again cuz that nothing short of outright.....funny . now u tell me if it were the last thing on their minds than why did the russian spend so much time n a fortune on the develpment of thrust vectoring, now as u say if the su-30 can take out as u put it 6-7 ac with its bvr compliment of missiles than y need thrust vectoring as it will only play a in a dogfight n nothing else. even the americans have incorparated thrust vectoring in the f-22 even though it has stealth n a wide array of bvr weaponary at its disposal.
ill go a step further n say if bvr is hyped up to be wt it is than why dont they just get hold of bombers and cargo plans as they have loads of room to accomodate 100s of bvr missiles n just send em out their to fire their salvos as according to the theory n advocates of bvr, these missiles should do the job, who needs fighter ac.
but on the other hand me see that the development of thrust vectoring has not stopped but now the americans are working on "thrust vector controls" which will be incorparated on ac in the near future.
so ply dont beleive every thing u read or hear cuz most of the time it is hype and brink man ship

N wt do u know about sd-10/jf-17 are u a member of the development team or the evaluation team or even part of the trial team?? u are neither one or the other. all u info is based upon wt u read in the papers or on forums like this. so how can u make such sweeping claims/statements about somthing u have no first hand info. even the sources that u obtain ur info from, dont have first hand info. unbelieveable man.

who says that Pakistan is betting just on thunder/sd-10 to fulfil its defensive needs.
For starters Pakistanis are proud of the fact that the thunder is made in Pakistan of course with chinese n other friends input/colabaration. So it is a source of pride. N the sd-10 has very good chances of being produced in Pak with tot. Plus once in service jf-17 thunder will prove it self to be a decent figher ac, which will be a match for most if not all of fighter ac of our main adversary.

The main prob with Pakistanis is they are impatiant n would like to change things in the wink of an eye, well this is not a cartoon or a movies things take time, but things are happening and moving in the right direction. unlike our neighbour which likes to advertise about things even before they happen, PAF does not like to advertise even when things are in operation.
So just because you dont hear any thing that does not mean that that PAF is sitting n doing nothing, believe me the ppl at the top are alive to the requirments and the needs of not just PAF but other sister arms.

So my brotherly advise to u n the likes of u is to sit back n relax, have a glass of water n chill, cuz at the end of the day no matter wt u say or do, u n me are still nothing more than arm chair warriors.
peace.

 

[VICTORA1]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Fieldmarshall,

Hi, The guy who spent 30 plus years in PAF does not know more than the expat working in the U S A in the management / executive position for years, as to how to bargain and cut a deal with the americans and it doesnot take any rocket scientist what plane and equipment pakistan needs to buy. People on this board know what pakistan AF must have.

Youngman, everybody and anybody who was a somebody in washington DC in the late 80's and early 90's new the pakistan would be hit with sanctions sooner because that was not the first time the sanctions were recommended for pakistan when they were passed. In Reagan's regime they were requested by the india lovers possibly 2 to 4 times and it is stated that Reagan would ask his NSA ' does pakistan have something that says bomb on it' and when the answer was no, he would turn down the issue. When it came to Bush, things had changed and he had no choice.

Pakistan was the butt of all the jokes at that times for how they got screwed over-----little boys wanted to play the games of the adults.

PAF is the same airforce which paid for those f 16 planes in advance. If they would have known the americans, nobody pays the americans in adavance. This is a society that lives on credit and does not understand cash paid up front. You take delivery first and then pay.

It is the same airforce that made the deal with the U S government rather than General Dynamics. If the deal was made with Gen Dyn, there would never have been a mention or enforcement of sanctions on pakista. If sanctions were hit, gen dyn would have been directly affected, would have recieved a bad name, there would have been jobs losses and that would have directly affected the congress and senate representatives of that state. They would in return would have retaliated against the projects in the states whoes senator / congress personal had put forward the sanction amendment. There would have been an internal conflict amongst the senators and congressmen. Do you understand how that amendment worked----there was no liability left----the senator / congressman who proposed the amendment had nothing to lose---it was a win win situation for them. Only PAF's buffoonery let them get away with it.

The next thing would have to file a lawsuit in the U S court for breach of contract, liability, but no, our wonderful officials said no. We don't want to offend the US. You have 1/2 billion dollars cash stuck up and you don't want to file a law suit and that against a country which is law suit happy. It would have forced the U S govrt to settle plus damages paid. But no.

Now after 9 / 11 once it agreed to helping the U S, pakistan had americas balls in their hands and they let them get away. The only reason they got away was that pakistanis didnot know how to deal with the americans. These aircraft that we are begging for right now, most of them would have been on our AB's parking lots within the first year to two. For every base given, pakistan should have requested a certain amount of equipment. Got the U S media involved about the injustice done to the pakistani for with-holding the money and kept on ragging on he issue till it became a sore subject and started bleeding.

Truly, the PAF should have walked away from the F 16's and bought the Mirage 2000-5 / 9 and then gone ahead with Rafael.

BVR is unproven-----if you get the oppurtunity, ask the iraqi air force pilots that died in air combat in the desert storm. Most of them didnot even even know when they died. Their 5 to 10 mile radar didnot even register the oncoming phoenic missiles from outer atmosphere.

Kargil, when the indian interceptors locked onto to the PAF F 16 BVR, the F 16 turned back. The indian pilot considers it a kill. In big game hunting it is considered a kill in a way when you have locked onto the target.

Need to do some 'honey do's'.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I hate to break the tempo here between the two of you but reading the last two lines of VICTORA1's post I just felt like barging in! Not to specifically target the Kargil scenario here but a LOCK-ON is NOT considered a kill. The Indian pilot who thought of that might've been in his own fantasy land because in professional world, that just ISN'T so! MIND IT!

 

[Oqaab]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

R u really sure about France willing to give the tech !! to pakistan ? I thought they said no even to sell those aircrafts to pakistan !!
thanks

Musharraf's visit to France made Mirage 2000-5 aircrafts available. Previously, many sources claimed that Pakistan might order Mirage 2000-5 which will cost then 55 million USD. Avionics package for JF-17s were also discussed.

BTW, do U read newspaper ? or articles ?

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Dear sir mr victoria,

u call me a young man so u must be in ur 30-40 or above, so i respect u.

But for u to mention here that iaf got a lock on an f-16 n that they consider that a victory or even equalent to a kill is the most farsical thing that i ever heard. i am sure the pilot deserves to awarded highest medal for bravery as he has achived a unique distinction.

Now dosent this tell u the mind set of the iaf the fear that PAF has over them, that to even get a lock real or in fantacy is considered a victory, even when their is no way to confirm this even for the iaf. i am 100% sure that this episode is a lie generated to boost the moral of iaf after their loosy and ineffective performance in the air to ground role and the loose of the ac. cuz if the iaf had the sligest chance to shoot down a PAF ac they would have done so. This fact is proven by the shooting down of a unarmed atlantique by a mig-21.
but the fact of the matter is that iaf lost 2 fighter ac n numerous rotary ac during kargil without the loss of 1 single fixed wing or rotary ac on PAK side.
Not to escilate the kargil episode it was decided to keep PAF away from the theater of operation , PAF was only in the area in the later stages, so i dont know where u got this info.
Those indian sat on our border for more than a year n wt did they do, if PAF, PA n PN are so weak dont u think the hindu fundamentalist in power at the time in india would have taken advantage of the whole situation.

So victoria i suggest that u get ur facts right before posting n stop belittling PAK in general n PAK armed forces in particular, they are not perfect but they are good enough to keep india at bay.
I have said it before n i say it again ppl at the top know wt they are doin so arm chair worriers like u chill

 

[fieldmarshal]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Mr victoria
u are tellin me that 5-10 miles in an air to air engagement is bvr!!!!!!
either u have made a mistake or u dont know wt bvr is. we are talkin about bvr missles like sd-10, aim-120, archer with ranges in acess of 50+ miles. n raders with detection range of close to 100 miles n even more with the capability to track mutiple target and at the same time to look down n shoot down, wt is 5-10miles? 5-10 miles is wvr not bvr sir
n those poor iraqis who the russians taught just to take of and land u think they would put a fight against the allies. they were a disgrace to the name air force. bad example mr victoria.

PAF wanted to buy the mirage 2000 some years ago but the french were demanding an arm n a leg for it, so its good they hept away from them.

The iranians had paid a substantial sum for their f-16 but never saw the light of the day, the isrealis had paid for the mirage-3 but thefrench did not deliver. So if u read history u will find that the list goes on n on.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Musharraf's visit to France made Mirage 2000-5 aircrafts available. Previously, many sources claimed that Pakistan might order Mirage 2000-5 which will cost then 55 million USD. Avionics package for JF-17s were also discussed.

BTW, do U read newspaper ? or articles ?

Can you give me the link of the article or newspaper !! Was that offer along with transfer of tech. ? thanks

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

how can you develop an air to airmissile based on ballistic missile technology
does this missile follow a ballistic trajectory to hit a target(i doubt if it will have any substantial terminal velocity left)?
an air to air missile requires an active radar and has to be relatively light weight,it also needs ramjet propulsion to provide it with its high speed of engagement.

The S300 systemmissiles are the size of ballistic missiles. Are they ramjet powered?The point is you are attacking concentrations of aircraft not an individual aircraft. There is sufficient space to house a rdar within the missile. I ma no expert on ballistic trajectory so I can't add anything further to that. I think ballstic missiles whilst the engines are fired have the speed. I think the speed is far in excess of fighter aircraft.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

R u really sure about France willing to give the tech !! to pakistan ? I thought they said no even to sell those aircrafts to pakistan !!
thanks

They dint deny us the sell at all.....we asked them they said yes. We evaluated Mirage2000-9 (like UAE's) with coustomizations to suit PAF. When every thing was done we dropped out for what PAF calls "Several Reasons".

 

[konware]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Licence for sale of Vera radar to Pakistan issued by ministry
PRAGUE- The Industry and Trade Ministry has recently issued a licence for the ERA company, based in Pardubice, east Bohemia, allowing it to export the model version of the Czech-made passive radar system to Pakistan, Ivo Mravinac from the ministry said.
Pakistan will merely lease the system while a new permit will be needed for a possible sale of the radar to this country, he said.

CTK has failed to contact ERA for comment, but the company usually does not comment on Vera's export. It is not clear therefore how long the model radar will remain in Pakistan and what are other conditions of the agreement.

According to leading Czech Arabist Jaroslav Bures, Pakistan is a risky country in which Islamist forces penetrate state bodies, the army and intelligence services.

"The technology could be handed to various risky groups," he told CTK today.

He said that in his view the alliance between Pakistan and the USA was superficial and the mood in the country was still strongly anti-western.

Vera, produced by the company ERA, is able to detect another radar's presence and determine its type without being detected itself.

It consists of three relatively small devices, placed several dozens of kilometres from each other. It can simultaneously monitor up to 200 aircraft and accurately specify their distance and altitude.

Vera is a sophisticated successor to the well-known radar Tamara.

The Czech Republic has sold Vera to the USA and Estonia, while a number of other countries have shown interest in it, too.

China and Vietnam have been rejected as bidders for the Vera system. A number of other countries, including Malaysia and Egypt, have shown interest in it.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, who has recently visited the Czech Republic, said at a meeting with Czech Defence Minister Karel Kuehnl that Australia was interested in being shown Vera.

For the system to be exported abroad the Foreign, Defence and Interior ministries should give their consent, apart from the Industry and Trade Ministry.

link

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

The S300 systemmissiles are the size of ballistic missiles. Are they ramjet powered?The point is you are attacking concentrations of aircraft not an individual aircraft. There is sufficient space to house a rdar within the missile. I ma no expert on ballistic trajectory so I can't add anything further to that. I think ballstic missiles whilst the engines are fired have the speed. I think the speed is far in excess of fighter aircraft.

agreed but the problems are:
1)ballistic missiles are too bulky,so they cannot be easily integrated on a combat aircraft.
2)air to air missiles need to carry an aesa.
3)their airframes would have to be extensively redesigned to be capable of air to air manouvering.
4)they must have sustained high supersonic speed at all ranges(terminal velocity)

see speed alone is not everything other factors required for a successful air to air missile are the ability to manouvere at high speeds (most modern aam's have capability of withstanding 40+g's),for this they need tvc and a highly strong body,aerodynamic surfaces etc.
the missile will also have to be able to sustain this speed and manouverability even at the final stages of the flight.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

agreed but the problems are:
1)ballistic missiles are too bulky,so they cannot be easily integrated on a combat aircraft.
2)air to air missiles need to carry an aesa.
3)their airframes would have to be extensively redesigned to be capable of air to air manouvering.
4)they must have sustained high supersonic speed at all ranges(terminal velocity)

see speed alone is not everything other factors required for a successful air to air missile are the ability to manouvere at high speeds (most modern aam's have capability of withstanding 40+g's),for this they need tvc and a highly strong body,aerodynamic surfaces etc.
the missile will also have to be able to sustain this speed and manouverability even at the final stages of the flight.

I think i was talking about ground to air missiles not air to air. The integartion was to do with the czech radar system.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Licence for sale of Vera radar to Pakistan issued by ministry
PRAGUE- The Industry and Trade Ministry has recently issued a licence for the ERA company, based in Pardubice, east Bohemia, allowing it to export the model version of the Czech-made passive radar system to Pakistan, Ivo Mravinac from the ministry said.
Pakistan will merely lease the system while a new permit will be needed for a possible sale of the radar to this country, he said.

CTK has failed to contact ERA for comment, but the company usually does not comment on Vera's export. It is not clear therefore how long the model radar will remain in Pakistan and what are other conditions of the agreement.

According to leading Czech Arabist Jaroslav Bures, Pakistan is a risky country in which Islamist forces penetrate state bodies, the army and intelligence services.

"The technology could be handed to various risky groups," he told CTK today.

He said that in his view the alliance between Pakistan and the USA was superficial and the mood in the country was still strongly anti-western.

Vera, produced by the company ERA, is able to detect another radar's presence and determine its type without being detected itself.

It consists of three relatively small devices, placed several dozens of kilometres from each other. It can simultaneously monitor up to 200 aircraft and accurately specify their distance and altitude.

Vera is a sophisticated successor to the well-known radar Tamara.

The Czech Republic has sold Vera to the USA and Estonia, while a number of other countries have shown interest in it, too.

China and Vietnam have been rejected as bidders for the Vera system. A number of other countries, including Malaysia and Egypt, have shown interest in it.

Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer, who has recently visited the Czech Republic, said at a meeting with Czech Defence Minister Karel Kuehnl that Australia was interested in being shown Vera.

For the system to be exported abroad the Foreign, Defence and Interior ministries should give their consent, apart from the Industry and Trade Ministry.

link

I didn't realise the Czech's had an Islamic rebellion on their hands. What's the sale of the system got to do with Islam in Pakistan? I feel that some of these so called East European countries are overplaying their importance. Pakistan should stick with China and Ukraine for the supply of these weapons. People only beg if they can't afford to pay so why beg and pay at the same time to Czechs?

 

[corzair]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Mr victoria
...those poor iraqis who the russians taught just to take of and land u think they would put a fight against the allies. they were a disgrace to the name air force. bad example mr victoria....

The Iraqi airforce seams to have actually been bought off!
Now i'm no fan of sadam hussain but i remember the news in 2003 that during the early days of the conflict the chief of the iraqi airforce had been charged by the then iraqi gov for teason for not even fighting and/or sacked - there seams to have been contact between their airfoce and the coalition forces!

Also I have to back you up FM, I think VICTORA1's criteque is way too harsh on PAF!
I personally find that the PAF has done very well over the last two decades wit the equipment they have had like the F6 (great point defence fighter) and the huge suite of MirageIII/5

Even the F7PG is supposed to be an excellent point defender too, as the chinese on a related site say they can give a good account of themselves even against J11/flankers! (within visual range etc)

American Chuck Yager years back also commented in favourable terms about the PAF and there dedication to flying!

 

[Elite-Pilot]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Military observers arrives in to witness PAF's on going Exercise "High Mark-2005"

ISLAMABAD : Military observers from China, France, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and United Arab Emirates (UAE) arrived in Pakistan in view to witness Pakistan Air Force's (PAF's) on going Exercise "High Mark-2005".

The Military observers were briefed on various stages of Exercise High Mark 2005 at Chaklala on Monday.

During their stay, the military observers will be visiting an Operational Base of Pakistan Air Force and will be interacting with the Combat Air Crew of various fighter squadrons engaged in Exercise High Mark 2005.


*****************
QUOTE----

POSTED BY SABRE
They dint deny us the sell at all.....we asked them they said yes. We evaluated Mirage2000-9 (like UAE's) with coustomizations to suit PAF. When every thing was done we dropped out for what PAF calls "Several Reasons".


SO......if there are SEVERAL REASONS for 2000-9 than,there are bound to be MANY REASONS for 2000-5 right?

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SO......if there are SEVERAL REASONS for 2000-9 than,there are bound to be MANY REASONS for 2000-5 right?

What kind of a question is that ??? Mirage2000-9 & 5 are not two different aircrafts. Its only mirage2000-9 shares some features with Rafale.

would u say that F-16Block 60 is different aircraft than Block 52+ .

be it m2k5 or m2k9 its was always going to be "several reasons"...there were no problems with the fighter n its coustomization. Problems were with the deal.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Iraqi aircraft were outclassed by BVR air to air missiles in the first Gulf War. Certain planes were also hit by HARMS, so the great Iraqi airforce wasn't much to talk about. Pakistan should take note of the fact BVR's and HARMS are essential for all combat planes. Not having them can make an airforce obsolete.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What kind of a question is that ??? Mirage2000-9 & 5 are not two different aircrafts. Its only mirage2000-9 shares some features with Rafale.

would u say that F-16Block 60 is different aircraft than Block 52+ .

be it m2k5 or m2k9 its was always going to be "several reasons"...there were no problems with the fighter n its coustomization. Problems were with the deal.

does the mirage2000-9 have the spectra self protection jammer and the snecma m88-4 engine variant which are found on the rafale?does it have aesa?
i think there is no point in acquiring the mirage2000-9 when the rafale is already available.