Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[umair]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Kashif go and search the old PAF threads. The 8 leased(not bought) Mig-29s have been in the PAF for about a decade now.I've mentioned their existence before as well.
Sabre: I don't show up so regularly now cause I've got a huge study load on my shoulders now that I'm into the final stretch for my ACCA qualification.Any problems? :

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Kashif go and search the old PAF threads. The 8 leased(not bought) Mig-29s have been in the PAF for about a decade now.I've mentioned their existence before as well.
Sabre: I don't show up so regularly now cause I've got a huge study load on my shoulders now that I'm into the final stretch for my ACCA qualification.Any problems? :

can i ask why they were leased the only role of Mig-29's in PAF is to to perform as agressors in war cant they be prepared for combat what do the PAF actually do with them i cant understand they want to train their pilots how to lock targets but they cant fire at them caz the target will be distroyed for this purpose only Cant PAF use the other planes or PAF wanna know the capebilities of Mig's

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sri WHAT say something i think this is not a one liner post there is only a single word in this post

So? My post still ends up being just as relevant as the others. I wanted super7fc1 to come clear on his post, which imho happened to be extrememly cluttered and unclear. If you could make sense out of it, please ellaborate. Thanks.

 

[kilo_4que]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

can i ask why they were leased the only role of Mig-29's in PAF is to to perform as agressors in war cant they be prepared for combat what do the PAF actually do with them i cant understand they want to train their pilots how to lock targets but they cant fire at them caz the target will be distroyed for this purpose only Cant PAF use the other planes or PAF wanna know the capebilities of Mig's

been away for a while myself and am happy to see the many progressive threads on defencetalk.

Regarding the issue of mig-29s in pakistan, it is still a highly debatable affair however with evidences of their existance one can clarify their usages for research only and nothing else. With a squadron load of these fighters, yes they can act as aggressors but what do you do for parts. It is machinery at the end of the day and maintenance is required. Russia would not allow pakistan to acquire their tech indirectly so who would provide materials. China could but this would weaken China-russian relations. We are left with the option that they are used in research perposes only and nothing else. Furthermore, who can evidently say that an actual squadron exists of healthy fighters. They could have been heaps for all we know as any report proving their existance is never concise including that of the blackbird spyshots where they claimed that pakistan posessed Mig-29 like fighters with canards, thats a discussion in itself which has perished now.

Regards

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Ofcourse in today's world, the black market is a very popular place to get spare-parts of aircraft and machinery. Not to mention, it is a commercial contract, so its possible that the PAF has a license to fly these planes. Also, the aircraft themselves don't have to be armed with high end avionics and systems, meaning, the plane is useless in war.

 

[kilo_4que]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

lol that makes no sense at all. We arent talking about little pistol deals here. We are talking about high tech materials such as those that have influences on direct avionics

The black markets cannot suffice

Even if they did, it does not authorise licenses, it would be called theft on behalf of the russians who will defo know of it. how can u fly a squadron of unique fighters without their country of origin knowing, and theo nly way to fly them is with ample equipment at bay which pretty much complicates the equation.

 

[tauseef_1981]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF does not have Mig-29's whether as agressors or for any other role.

 

[super7fc1]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

hello all

Kashifshahzad & srirangan i am 199% sure F-10 was in Karachi, dark grey color schem red colore number marking & no any chinese air force signe NOT only F-10, The Erieye AEW aircraft with 5 F-7PGs was fly to Masroor base in Oct 2004, Iranian F-14 Tomcat was came at Karachi airport for radar maitinance in 97/98,i so exited why not came at military base & all 3/4 iranian fighters parked at open & any one saw directly.
WE have not any Mig 29, but in the 1997 or 98 we exercise with Iran and irainan Mig 29 came Pakistan, Iranian Mig 29s engines performance not good,
Pakistani tehnition not happy Russian engines against west made engines,
In sep 6 2003 Pakistan defence day i visited masroor base and meet a technition who worked with South african Missiles he told me about H-2 & H-4 missile U-darter + others , he conforme Raptor 1/2 glid bomb/missile but not surly he conforme about Mapsow, about U-Darter he told me yes we have U-Darter but only for test & we get it after 1990sfor test trile,
please This year you will go Masroor base or your city base and clear your question but you rememeber only Masroor base test all Pak air force's missiles and weapons at sonmiyane missile test range,
please all person who live in karachi will visit Masroor base at 6 september this year & this month i give you my contact # so meet me at base.

 

[Ahsan1]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

F-10 existence is might be true, you never know, Pakistan and China has history of working together in defence materials. But we all know that F-10 will not be enough for PAF to compete with IAF.

IAF with

• Su-30
• Mig-29
• Su-27/Mirage-2000-5/Gripen
• Jaguars
• Mig-21UPG
• LCA

PAF with

• F-16C/D
• F16MLU
• JF-17
• Mirage ROSE
• F-7UPG

You see the comparison? We can never win war with this inventory, even if we see quality wise we are made up of inventory that cannot match IAF. To compete with them in quatative we will still lose...So In the future we have to have another 4th generation aircraft and my choice would be Rafale. I understand all that it is expensive and all that but still It is a very good aircraft which will add many benefits in our inventory and will not just provide capable defence but it will also have ability to tear-apart IAF supermecy over the battlefield. If we even get F-10, it will not be good enough, Firstly, because it will come up with the same weapons that JF-17 will come. Secondly, its Chinese, we cant go for it unless European embargo is lifted it will be an awesome story to dealt with. We can get European avionics and radar in J-10 and other technology to make it better. And I bet Su-30MKIs will not look good against it.

On the other hand If European embargo is not lifted which is 80% of case, we will have to go with Rafale or Gripen with AESE radar to match up with IAF atleast quality wise, with the booming economy and Gawadar port which will be ready by 2006, everything is possible in the near future.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Guys dont get oer emotional oer all this , firstly Rafale even if it comes would be in limited number my guess not more than 40 odd, secondly i dont think thers acomparison between J-10 n MKI since MKI is a fully tested n fielded programme whereas J-10 is other wise , had it come 4 or 5 years earlier it woldve been an excellent platform but is not stiill goin throuh trial n testing n way thngs r it would be to little too short vis-a-vis time frames , when it gets inducted on the other hand MKI has the best of both the worlds n if i recall a few weeks back there was an artice from former Indian Chief Tipnis who disclosed the platform to be of 4.5 generation closer to 5th gen, so in contrast J-10 is yet to be inducted, all those fancy flying would do it no good if it lacks a proper avionics plus weapons suite!!!!!!!!!! n thats the reason PAf has not shown much interest in it !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Ofcourse in today's world, the black market is a very popular place to get spare-parts of aircraft and machinery. Not to mention, it is a commercial contract, so its possible that the PAF has a license to fly these planes. Also, the aircraft themselves don't have to be armed with high end avionics and systems, meaning, the plane is useless in war.

Mate why we will get parts of the Mig-29's from the black market whether we want to fir them into F-16's or we want to make our own Mig's .You are taking senceless one person steals our squardon of F-16's and sells it in the black market to India and India is flying them having the licence to fly.LOL

lol that makes no sense at all. We arent talking about little pistol deals here. We are talking about high tech materials such as those that have influences on direct avionics

The black markets cannot suffice

Even if they did, it does not authorise licenses, it would be called theft on behalf of the russians who will defo know of it. how can u fly a squadron of unique fighters without their country of origin knowing, and theo nly way to fly them is with ample equipment at bay which pretty much complicates the equation.

yeah this is not the matter of pistols guns and handgranates but but i have heard that there is a big black market that sells nuclear bomb parts i dont know how .It is forsure that they would not have licence with them like the bilal is saying that we bought Mig-29's from the black market .

PAF does not have Mig-29's whether as agressors or for any other role.

Tauseef can you explain your statement

hello all

Kashifshahzad & srirangan i am 199% sure F-10 was in Karachi, dark grey color schem red colore number marking & no any chinese air force signe NOT only F-10, The Erieye AEW aircraft with 5 F-7PGs was fly to Masroor base in Oct 2004, Iranian F-14 Tomcat was came at Karachi airport for radar maitinance in 97/98,i so exited why not came at military base & all 3/4 iranian fighters parked at open & any one saw directly.
WE have not any Mig 29, but in the 1997 or 98 we exercise with Iran and irainan Mig 29 came Pakistan, Iranian Mig 29s engines performance not good,
Pakistani tehnition not happy Russian engines against west made engines,
In sep 6 2003 Pakistan defence day i visited masroor base and meet a technition who worked with South african Missiles he told me about H-2 & H-4 missile U-darter + others , he conforme Raptor 1/2 glid bomb/missile but not surly he conforme about Mapsow, about U-Darter he told me yes we have U-Darter but only for test & we get it after 1990sfor test trile,
please This year you will go Masroor base or your city base and clear your question but you rememeber only Masroor base test all Pak air force's missiles and weapons at sonmiyane missile test range,
please all person who live in karachi will visit Masroor base at 6 september this year & this month i give you my contact # so meet me at base.

I think you must have seen the F-16's caz they look like same as the J-10 in the shape and how can you deny that PAF have Mig's there are a lot or rumers that PAF have this and PAF have that I think you are misleading the DT forum you are giving very strange kind of information to us which neither you can confirm nor we can confirm.

F-10 existence is might be true, you never know, Pakistan and China has history of working together in defence materials. But we all know that F-10 will not be enough for PAF to compete with IAF.

IAF with
Su-30
Mig-29
Su-27/Mirage-2000-5/Gripen
Jaguars
Mig-21UPG
LCA
PAF with
F-16C/D
F16MLU
JF-17
Mirage ROSE
F-7UPG
You see the comparison? We can never win war with this inventory, even if we see quality wise we are made up of inventory that cannot match IAF. To compete with them in quatative we will still lose...So In the future we have to have another 4th generation aircraft and my choice would be Rafale. I understand all that it is expensive and all that but still It is a very good aircraft which will add many benefits in our inventory and will not just provide capable defence but it will also have ability to tear-apart IAF supermecy over the battlefield. If we even get F-10, it will not be good enough, Firstly, because it will come up with the same weapons that JF-17 will come. Secondly, its Chinese, we cant go for it unless European embargo is lifted it will be an awesome story to dealt with. We can get European avionics and radar in J-10 and other technology to make it better. And I bet Su-30MKIs will not look good against it.

On the other hand If European embargo is not lifted which is 80% of case, we will have to go with Rafale or Gripen with AESE radar to match up with IAF atleast quality wise, with the booming economy and Gawadar port which will be ready by 2006, everything is possible in the near future.

Good comparison but PAF may not be in a position to buy other plane after the purchases of F-16's money problem or PAF may not need other planes till 2010 caz new F-16's will be in service and the JF-17's thunders will be in the force too for the increase in the power of PAF . I want to say one thing here that old thing are not bad but they should be modified to the furure needs .As far as i know about the AESA radar that it is an US radar not a european so it would not be fitted in the Grippens or in Rafales

Guys dont get oer emotional oer all this , firstly Rafale even if it comes would be in limited number my guess not more than 40 odd, secondly i dont think thers acomparison between J-10 n MKI since MKI is a fully tested n fielded programme whereas J-10 is other wise , had it come 4 or 5 years earlier it woldve been an excellent platform but is not stiill goin throuh trial n testing n way thngs r it would be to little too short vis-a-vis time frames , when it gets inducted on the other hand MKI has the best of both the worlds n if i recall a few weeks back there was an artice from former Indian Chief Tipnis who disclosed the platform to be of 4.5 generation closer to 5th gen, so in contrast J-10 is yet to be inducted, all those fancy flying would do it no good if it lacks a proper avionics plus weapons suite!!!!!!!!!! n thats the reason PAf has not shown much interest in it !!!!!!!!!!!

Rafale_2k5 you are very much impressed with the Rafales that's why you have your nick in DT is Rafale_2k5 man think beyond Rafales the life dont get still only on Rafales if we will not get rafales we cannot fight with IAF how can it be war is a game of chance one fighter which reaches the enemy base can destroy all the planes standing on the airport I have heard this kind of thing which PAF have done in 1965 war against India .Firstly we dont know how much F-16's PAF will get and what kind of avionics and weapon system will they have then PAF officials have to think whether they need another AC which would be superior then the F-16's or it should backup the F-16's if PAF wants the superior AC's then is there a need for F-16 (if they are comming free then its ok) other wise if we really want to spend money to buy the planes and that must be superior then the IAF Su-30MkI then think about other plane i dont really know that whether the F-16 which PAF have or which PAF is gona to have are superior then the Sukhois . Then the PAF must be wondering to buy the F-16's and then buy other planes after the 2010 which i have mentioned above

 

[webmaster]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I am no black market expert or anything like that but here are some things to ponder on when making such claims:

Why would mig-29 parts be available in the black market?

Don't you think that only entities that have need for mig 29 parts are countries that have mig-29s and if there is any need for spare parts, they can buy it directly from the company.

You can't sell mig-29 parts to terrorists or rag tag groups because mig-29 parts are only good for mig-29s and nothing else. It's not like a nuclear device that can be converted into dirty bomb or something similar. The mig-29 parts claim in black market is ridiculous, it defies logic.

Now, if you believe that such parts are available then produce a valid point why would they be. Thinking that since "nuclear" black market exists, there must be one for mig-29 is not a logical way of thinking. Black Markets are for illegal entities acquiring unusual types of weapons, certainly mig-29 parts don't make that category. Those that need the parts can buy directly from the company, legally and openly.

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

This is how i see it. Black markets or no black markets this thread should get back to discussing the PAF Topic !! Soon. Conspiracies will remain conspiracies.

The people who sold or Allegedly "Gave PAF Mig 29" should be the original point of Sale for the spares its self. If such a transaction has occurred the people that were involved in procuring such weapons systems are neither fools nor Dim enough to not be able to procure spares. Here is the logical intake you procure a weapon systems and you determine the Spares supply. You can use three or four as operational Weapons platform and maintain the other frames as spares like the Argentinean did with there Super Etendard they had five delivered but they needed two to mount a successful Exocet launch operation. They used tow pairs ie 4 of them as operational AC and the one as spares supply. Given the fact that the Mig 29 here in PAF is an aggressor training platform I doubt PAF logs high number of flight hours on the platform which means that smaller number of Spares are required to keep the Birds flying. YOu have to keep in mind these AC will never see an actual conflict.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=304078

Recently, Washington has also resumed military assistance to Islamabad and in March agreed to sell the much-needed F-16 fighter jets to the Pakistan Air Force. While Pakistan received about a billion dollars US aid a year since 2002, the US monetary assistance to India amounted to a mere 25 million dollars and it buys much of its weaponry from Russia and EU countries, the report said.
__________________________________________________________________

do u guys really think the US would do that. I DON'T!!!! what are ur view???

mod edit: highsea: Most of article deleted. Click on the link if you are interested. Stick to the topic, please. If you want to discuss the pipeline, start another thread.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

hello all

Kashifshahzad & srirangan i am 199% sure F-10 was in Karachi, dark grey color schem red colore number marking & no any chinese air force signe NOT only F-10, The Erieye AEW aircraft with 5 F-7PGs was fly to Masroor base in Oct 2004, Iranian F-14 Tomcat was came at Karachi airport for radar maitinance in 97/98,i so exited why not came at military base & all 3/4 iranian fighters parked at open & any one saw directly.

Karachi???? I dont know why would J-10/F-10 fly over Karachi. If it ever came to Pakistan it would have been stationed at Sargodah. Jf-17 is also based in Sargodah. If J-10 ever came to Pakistan for test flights than it will offcourse has to fly over Sargodah where the test pilots are housed including the F-16 pilots + if they came for any technical matter than again they'll have to fly over Sargodah where PAC is based. Nothing flies over karachi for tests. Let Umair talk if I am wrong. The test range of ACs is limited. They can only fly from Sargodah to Pindi region & may be Lahore.

The Erieye never flew in Karachi or any where in Pakistan. I dont think the PAF masroor runway can support a big AirCraft like Erieye. Thats why it houses small ACs like Mirage-3/5 & F-7Ps/PGs.

These are false statements by some kids on Pakistani defence forums. Dont follow that.

I dont think that Iranian F-14s flew in Pakistan either but USNavy's did. There is a pic in the gallery check it out.

Again about those MiG-29s. Three ppl say they exist. Umair & two of my sources. Umair claims to have seen them & so have my sources but I dont consider those two sources of mine credible. This issue is in the hands of Umair. Dont ask me abt those MiG-29s. BTW USAF also has 12 MiG-29s. They bought it openly from a 3rd party & Russia couldnt do any thing abt it. I think they fly MiG-29 aggressors even today. You can get info on this on the net plus u can ask highsea.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

BTW USAF also has 12 MiG-29s. They bought it openly from a 3rd party & Russia couldnt do any thing abt it. I think they fly MiG-29 aggressors even today. You can get info on this on the net plus u can ask highsea.

No, the USAF has 21 Mig-29's that it bought from Moldova. AFAIK none are operational anymore. The last Mig-29's to fly as aggressors were the German Mig-29's last year. They have also been demobbed from the German Air Force and are now owned by the Polish Air Force

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

GF how much time it would take for Chinese to build a Reverse Engineered RD-33?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

GF how much time it would take for Chinese to build a Reverse Engineered RD-33?

30-40 years ago both Russian and China reverse engineered the Rolls Royce Sapphire and Avon engines in about 2-3 years.

So they have the capability. The issue for China is that she has a lousy reputation for copying things without approval (ie illegal copies). The Russians would probably be assuming that they have started the attempt.

It's a more complex engine, but with their capability I still think it's a min 2 year exercise. They would have been able to get additional RD-33 data from numerous sources, not the least being Sth Africa and some of the rogue Israeli elements.

Any opportunity to buy Russian gear would be compromised once it was established. The Russians are already more or less convinced that the Chinese have built extra Su-27's over the licence agreement. (Ever since that idiot Clinton permitted the sale of the 5 Axis Cincinnatti)

 

[umair]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sigh! The mig muddle continues!
PAF leased 12 from Ukraine back in the mid 90s.The aircraft came with enough spares to support moderate flight ops for about 3 1/2 years. Another batch of spares came in during the late 90s or there abouts. These machines have no weaponry and have been used for tactics development. Matter of fact, the lease will be expiring in about another year or so and the Fulcrums may be sent back to Ukraine.
Yes I've seen atleast 3 of these machines with my own eyes once while visiting PAF Mushaf(Sargodha) a few years back. The home base of these fighters is kept secret so I really dunno where they are based. Matter of fact I wouldn't have known or believed about them had I not seen them myself.
Gotta rush my exam starts in about 2 hrs. After I come back I'll shed light on the RD-33 issue.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Current F-16 Versions Are World's Most Advanced Multi-Role Fighters?

Sabre but US wants to give PAF older versions of F-16's cant we have these version which have this BVR capibility and this AESA radar US dont want to give its new technology to any other country other then i think the Isreal

USA clearly stated newly built & new versions of F-16C/D. Its PAF which has shown interest in buying (or as defence sctry said 2nd Weapons from US comes for free) 2nd hand F-16 & only 11 of them. AFAIK these F-16s are from Soviat era & only need MLU & I think they do have BVR capability (Comment:::Highsea &/or GF if I am wrong).

On the other hand neither USA nor Pakistan defence ministry & neither Lock-Heed Martin have or are willing to give details of avionics & weapon systems for F-16s PAF wants to aquire.

So...I realy dont know where you got the idea or news from that USA is going to sell us older or 2nd hand versions & inferior weapon system.
As far as I have been told. Not all F-16s (lets keep the number to 75-6) will be similar in weapons system & avionics. Some of them might turn out to be superior in avionics & weapon systems than the other but the inferior ones would still be latest basic version of F-16 C/D Block 52 (I am sure with BVR capability).

Earlier Defence Minister had made it clear that Pakistan wouldnt settle for any thing inferior or some thing that does not full fill our demands & needs. BVR is a need specialy AIM-120 & most expert believe that AIM-120 will get through.

On the other hand USA officials including Christina Rocca, Condilica Rice, Donald Rumsfield & President Bush him self have clearly stated that they know the needs (on the basis of advance technology & comperision to its rivals) of Pakistan & its defence specialy its Air Force & they will give Pakistan latest tech & weapons fill in the gap. By these statements I do believe that they are willing to give tech such as AESA radars & AIM-120 & AIM-9X.

PS I got a news that Pakistan is now re-considering F-16 Block 60 E/F instead of any other 5th Gen AC. PAF wont consider an other US AC unless the previous one come inferior. Wheather US will sell or not is another thing.

Kashif dont go on what you read on net & listen on news. The real specifications of Pakistani F-16s would not be made public untill these AC have landed & have been settled in PAF. Even after that you will never find some major specs on board.

If you are concerned about China thing, well dont be. The tech had never crossed over & it will never cross over. Latest US tech destroys it self (Self Destruction----i dont think they would explode, dont knw how they do it) if any attempts are made to reverse engineer it (Comment ::: Highsea & GF). PS Pakistan cant afford to upset USA at the point when they have been just declared as the 2nd fastest growing economy of the year after China & soon to become 5th Tigher nation of Asia, by United Nations & World Bank. We are on the road but we still need a push & push has to come from USA.

mod edit: highsea: Post moved to correct thread.