Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think Clinton offered the ban lift over PAF's F-16s & offered 2 sqdns of F-18s if Pakistan doesnt test the nukes......any info on this pshamim.

But both offers were made at different times & different PMs...Clinton gave F-16 offers to Benazir Bhutto (I am sure of this cause my uncle was a minister than....even the BB said that there would be no nuke test the ban was not lifted) on the other hand F-16 ban lift & F-18 offer were made to Nawaz Sharif if he does not Tit fot Tat to India's nuke test.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think Clinton offered the ban lift over PAF's F-16s & offered 2 sqdns of F-18s if Pakistan doesnt test the nukes......any info on this pshamim.

But both offers were made at different times & different PMs...Clinton gave F-16 offers to Benazir Bhutto (I am sure of this cause my uncle was a minister than....even the BB said that there would be no nuke test the ban was not lifted) on the other hand F-16 ban lift & F-18 offer were made to Nawaz Sharif if he does not Tit fot Tat to India's nuke test.

No Sabre. Have no information on the proposed lifting of the embargo. If true, it is a sad commentary on Clinton's deviousness. This is precisely the reason that Pakistanis have never trusted the Democrats in particular. Dont mean to start a political argument on this thread. Just the reason, that Pakistan wants to receive every thing, it wants, before the changeover in 2008.

Under the current scenerio, Pakistan may end up with a larger number of F-16s than it will order. As the new F-16s will not be available until 2007-2008, Pakistan and DSCA are discussing loaner a/c to fill gap until the new ones arrive. By then, Pakistan will buy the older ones for next to nothing, automatically doubling the number of F-16 on order. USA has offered to provide the aircrafts from its surplus inventory as well as allowing the Dutch to sell its F-16s to Pakistan. Pakistan does not seem to be interested in the Dutch units as they are all Blk-15 though the airframe hours are somewhere between 2200-2800 hours only.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I thought we were after those Belgiun F-16s...dint know abt Dutch F-16s. I read some where that the Dutch are considering to buy more F-16s than why would they be selling them if they want more?

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I thought we were after those Belgiun F-16s...dint know abt Dutch F-16s. I read some where that the Dutch are considering to buy more F-16s than why would they be selling them if they want more?

Negative! They are trying to unload them. There f-16sare not even flying much due to high fuel cost, avaraging close to 150 hours/yr.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Negative! They are trying to unload them. There f-16sare not even flying much due to high fuel cost, avaraging close to 150 hours/yr.

Hmmmm. They are unloading while we are uploading. Hope it doesnt turn out like Mirage3. Anyways do u have any idea what other ACs PAF might purchase, my sources know alot but now days they are hush hush.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Hmmmm. They are unloading while we are uploading. Hope it doesnt turn out like Mirage3. Anyways do u have any idea what other ACs PAF might purchase, my sources know alot but now days they are hush hush.

At the moment f-16s and more f-16s. No other aircrafts fits in the picture and the strategy. I foresee a number of at least 150 F-16s including the current 32 in 3-4 years in the PAF inventory. Even if the new F-16s are not delivered due to politics, the number should be between 90-100.

Surprised but believe me it is true and not a fantasy as some across the border might say.

Even if a new aircraft e.g. Rafael, grippen is bought, it will be only after Indian air force has decided on its new acquisition. Pakistanies are patient and playing a great game. Indians are not in a win win position.

 

[umair]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What about the impact of this new Indo-Us agreement Shamim? One of the people I know in the PAF once told me that if India opts for a western platform for it's MRCA requirement, indications are that the Russians would be willing to entertain Pakistan's requests if made for Russian fighters. And with this new agreement I for one, forsee a greater chance of the IAF going for either of the Fs being offered. Now where would that leave us? For one, it may open up a new vendor for us, two: we may end up having to buy either the Rafale or the Typhoon which given their present prices may not be inducted in a suitable quantity. Frankly speaking I've got so many scenarios running around my head that I'm feeling lost.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I dont see any AC from Russia that would suit Pakistan. We are getting F-16s so no point in getting MiG-29..Su-35 (the main AC that I suppose interests PAF officials) has too much of a maintainance cost.

Cant say about Typhoon, Mirage2000 (any veriant) seems to be out. French are pursuing heavily on Rafales & most officials are interested in Gripens but any future sanction by US means no weapons for both the front liners (F-16 & Gripens). Typhoons will also be using US weapons.

I think Rafales would be better option. Remember we bought 12 F-104 StarFighters for Air Defence of Pakistan (they were not allowed to cross over during the war of 1965 except that two of them flew over PathanKot & Halwara & were only watching the backs of Mirage-3, F-86 Sabres & B-57s). On that possition we should (at this moment) maintain minimum of 20 Rafales. 20 would be enough considering the size of Pakistan.

Mean while the signals I am getting from ppl I knw are mostly pointing towards JAS-39 Gripens. But like pshamim says PAF will wait till India buys the ACs first. So nothing can be said till India makes the choice 1st.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

well maintaining 20 rafales isnt going to be any cheap either plus the cost would be real high(about 1.2 to 1.3 billion dollars) plus i dont think france will extend any credit facilities (they didnt for mirage 2000-5) like the us would.
besides what us weapons are there on ef-2000 typhoon.a combat aircraft is capable of using weapons of any country.:coffee

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

well maintaining 20 rafales isnt going to be any cheap either plus the cost would be real high(about 1.2 to 1.3 billion dollars) plus i dont think france will extend any credit facilities (they didnt for mirage 2000-5) like the us would.

Dont know abt India why France is not selling any thing on credit (I do knw why they refused to ToT to India but thats different matter) but they sold some Mirage3 on credit/loan to Pakistan in 1960s & they are offering Rafale on credit term+interest (this is not confirmed though so no one gets excited abt it till it happens) but the condition is that Pakistan charms Saudis into Rafale aswell. Problem is that US also wants KSA to buy its ACs & this is where Pakistan doesnt want to mess up, so there is lot of thinking before taking the step. Plus Pakistan has alot of money now days specialy after some expensive privatization of countries most profitible companies, $15 Billion foregin reserves, 7.8 GDP & 2006-7-8 speculated to be budget surplus, I think we can avoid credit by large terms. Plus $3billion by US for defence purchases which takes the burden of arms purchase from Pakistan's own money.

Anyways Main point; there is enough money to go for 100+ F-16s (which we are going for) & 24+ Rafales by 2010 to 2015. If Gripens go through than more Gripens instead of few Rafales.

besides what us weapons are there on ef-2000 typhoon.a combat aircraft is capable of using weapons of any country.:coffee

hmmm...same used by F-16, Gripens, few others. AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-9X Side Winder (SRAAM). For more contect adsH.

 

[mysterious]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I'm more in for 50 Rafales; cuz 24 isn't that economical a size to maintain aircraft, setting up new logistics and other facilities for if you ask me. If we're going for 'em, or even any other 'newer' AC that PAF doesn't currently operate, 50 pops would be worth it.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What about the impact of this new Indo-Us agreement Shamim? One of the people I know in the PAF once told me that if India opts for a western platform for it's MRCA requirement, indications are that the Russians would be willing to entertain Pakistan's requests if made for Russian fighters. .

Umair,

Pakistan has been discussing its requirements with France, China, and with Russians as well. Nothing will be decided by Pakistan and the different suppliers until India finalizes which 126 aircrafts it wants. Once that happens, Pakistan will be in a better position to decide what it needs to buy. It will also free up the suppliers to make deals with Pakistan without any concerns of Indian reaction.



Having worked in the international with various organizations in the defense and the communication fields, I am quite aware of Indian penchant for always asking first if we were planning to work with Pakistan and based on their reply would decide if they wanted to do business with them ala Middle Eastern countries not doing/not doing business with Israel.



We will be seeing a huge opening between Russia and Pakistan if Indians open up with USA. Recent leaks regarding RD-93 going to Pakistan followed by denials are nothing but Russian warnings to India not to accept US aircrafts.



I think that India is more worried about the repercussions of its decision will create. Pakistan, in the mean time, is quite happy about this Indian dilemma

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

are nothing but Russian warnings to India not to accept US aircrafts.

Its absolutely foolish to buy US Aircraft now and it will never happen.
There is not even one advantage of buying US Aircraft over French Mirage.

Mod edit: In future, please fix your messages when they don't display correctly. This one took me all of 30 seconds to repair. :coffee

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Its absolutely foolish to buy US Aircraft now and it will never happen.
There is not even one advantage of buying US Aircraft over French Mirage.

Nothing has been refused by India as far as i think the AC's are the same having the same weapon system one has to see that previous records some AC's have previous records and some have not caz they are new built.So the country which is going to buy the planes must consider the radar capebilities like no of target tracking , range .....(i dont know about the others) suppose an AC is in going to do combat with an enemy aircraft and it has a superior radar then it caz commant its wingmen to knock it down from the other side of to make the pilot to land on the runway then all people know that how many benifits do it will give

 

[mysterious]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Thread is about Pakistan AirForce discussions mates! I do believe people have read my earlier post and would like to know if my estimates on AC strength go well with people around here or not.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Myst i think all AC's of the present generation have same kind of weapon systems having the different names and their ranges differ a bit the main thing is Radar . Lets see the planes which PAF can go in a few years.
F-16
Grippens
Mirage
SU's (Might be)
Which one of these have the Radar having the greater range and target tracking ability

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Its absolutely foolish to buy US Aircraft now and it will never happen.
There is not even one advantage of buying US Aircraft over French Mirage.

Mod edit: In future, please fix your messages when they don't display correctly. This one took me all of 30 seconds to repair. :coffee

YOu have to be Objective here. You've lost all that makes sense. The US still manufactures World class Fighters. The F-16 can form a very capable part of the IAF strike force. Its a capable Bomber/fighter, carries and impressive Array of Weaponry to complement its advance avionic systems. Thrust to weight ratios is allot more favorable then the mirages (Atleast i think it is). It will probably end up being cheaper in the long run. For india it's Capability Vs Politics. Its always a hard choice !!

If Shamim is right (I have no doubt he is ). then India is caught up in a massive marketing Cross fire. They need to map out there path carefully.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

YOu have to be Objective here. You've lost all that makes sense. The US still manufactures World class Fighters. The F-16 can form a very capable part of the IAF strike force. Its a capable Bomber/fighter, carries and impressive Array of Weaponry to complement its advance avionic systems. Thrust to weight ratios is allot more favorable then the mirages (Atleast i think it is). It will probably end up being cheaper in the long run. For india it's Capability Vs Politics. Its always a hard choice !!

If Shamim is right (I have no doubt he is ). then India is caught up in a massive marketing Cross fire. They need to map out there path carefully.

"The US still manufactures World class Fighters" > you make it sound like US is loosing the no.1 possition when it comes to AC making. The "Still" word does not suit it even though I knw u ment that US is the best AC producer (or m i wrong here?)

Anyways. All US ACs have been in battle including A-6 & every one of them had a good luck compared to French & Russian. US fighter jet era begins with F-86Sabre & has come down to F-22 & no one can say that in all this line of US ACs there were ACs that sucked.

The performance of the US ACs is well known specialy of F-16. It has the best record yet while we also knw the record of Russian ACs but lets talk French since F-16 is being put up against Mirage2000s. We knw the record of Mirage-3 from Arab-Israel 6 day war & Indo-Pak 1965 war. At some places it performed bad & at some places it was good. Over all it was rated fine but the mirage2000s real time battle record is not realy good. I mean RAF manage to shoot down Argentina's Mirage2000 with its Sea Harrier.

Now I am not saying that Mirages are bad ACs. On personal level I love them & so does PAF. I have met a PAF-UAEAF pilot who flies Mirage2000-9. He says the boys adore the AC but F-16 still remains top choice for every one.

There was time when Europe & NATO were evaluating between F-16 & Mirage2000 & F-16 was chosen for its battle performance in real time as well as the war games.

But an amazing story I herd was that Israeli Kfirs (Mirage-3) twice defeated F-16A/B probably Block 15 in WVR war game. Dont knw if its true. May be highsea or GF knw abt it.

NOTE::: All this does not mean that Mirages are inferior to F-16 & F-16s are invincible to Mirage2000s.

Meanwhile what pshamim is saying is also the impression of PAF officials (that India is in political tangle with this) & the news from my source (treat as unreliable please) is that PAF had submitted request for Su-30/35 to Russians which they amazingly had not denied (like MiG-29), abt few days ago (after Indo-US defence pact) PAF officials contacted Russians & told them to respond now or else the Sukhois get erased from the evaluation list. Once again amazingly Russians have not denied it & infact the telephone talk went on for an hour. (Remember to treat it as unreliable at this moment & do not spread it).

wheather RD-93 was also discussed is not known.

 

[Brit]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Over all it was rated fine but the mirage2000s real time battle record is not realy good. I mean RAF manage to shoot down Argentina's Mirage2000 with its Sea Harrier.

I think you'll find that they were MirageIII (/Nesher) not '2000 that the Argentines operated. They had no RWR, BVR (credible at least), datalinks, HMS etc etc that the current crop of Mirage 2000's have (such as India is buying). The PAF MirageIIIs are better equiped than the Argentine ones but still a long way behind the 2000s of the IAF. Not that I care either way....

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

YOu have to be Objective here. You've lost all that makes sense. The US still manufactures World class Fighters. The F-16 can form a very capable part of the IAF strike force. Its a capable Bomber/fighter, carries and impressive Array of Weaponry to complement its advance avionic systems. Thrust to weight ratios is allot more favorable then the mirages (Atleast i think it is). It will probably end up being cheaper in the long run. For india it's Capability Vs Politics. Its always a hard choice !!

If Shamim is right (I have no doubt he is ). then India is caught up in a massive marketing Cross fire. They need to map out there path carefully.

Read my post carefully,
I never said F-16 is not capable aircraft.
But what i said For India,F-16 does not offer any impressive advantages over the Mirages.
I do not want discuss more in this threaded as it is not related to discussion.
I posted in Indian Air force thread
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=44502#post44502

For india it's Capability Vs Politics

Capability,Guy F-16 is not the only capable plane.
Mirages do offer many advantages to India.