Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[super7fc1]

Pakistan Airforce's structural monitoring systems

Pakistan signs for aircraft monitoring deal
Janes defence weekly , 1st June 2005
Australian companies structural monitoring systems (SMS) , and Aerostructures have won a A$ 830,000 (US $632,000) contract from the Pakistan air force to design an airframe monitoring system for the force,s chengdu FT-5 jet trainer, Mirage III fighters, and C-130 transport aircrafts.
The system will be based on SMS's comparative vacuum monitoring CVM technology. CVM involves the placing of thi sensor pads with ultrafine vacuum galleries over flat surfaces, joints or fatigue hotspots on aircraft, including inside wing spars or fuel tanks, for occasional or continual monitoring.
SMS chief officer Mark Vellacott said the pads are capable of detecting cracks 20,000 of an inch wide.
The key to the technology is its ability to substanially reduse aircraft downtime, in the case of CH-53 sea stalion medium lift helicopters a reduction from four hours to five minutes for the structural test required every 25 flight hours, according to the company.
Including in the Pakistan air force contract is a proposal to equip the country's defence aeronautical research center DARC with laboratory testing systems. vellacott said the contract was only stage one and would lead to recommendation for CVM technology to be installe on aircraft and for the company to assist DARC to develop its structurakl testing capability as part of a large two programme planned for the 2005.
"This contract is to provide a full range of structural integrity analysis, monitoring and testing services for the fleet and is another milestone in the commercialisation of CVM technology. "said vellacott.
"This is a major step forward for the company". SMS is alsoin negotiation with an undisclosed air force for the adoption of a full service approch for structural monitoring. The company begane an evaluation in march of CVM technologon three australian black hawks under an A$ 125,000 contract that eventually extend across the whole fleet.

 

[super7fc1]

World A to A missile (Pakistan)

World air to air missile directory
(Pakistan air force's missile capability)
Air International Sept 2004,
The small, but professional, Pakistan airforce is completely outclassed by its Indian neighbour in the field of air to air capability. Pakistan has no declared BVR missile capability and will not acquire one until the Chinese supplied FC-1 /Jf-17 Thunder is in service and equipped with the SD-10 missile. The acquisition of BVR weapons has been publicly identified as a PAF priority by the Commander-in-chief, Air Marshal Kaleem Saadat himself. There is growing evidence that Pakistan has established a shadowy guided weapons programme that may be charge with delivering new AAMs to the air force. Several reports in the natinal press have alluded to a programme dubbed ' H-4 ' which may be an air to air weapon, an air to surface weapon or (more likely) a confused description of several developments efforts.
Sources indicate that Pakistan possesses a stand off precision guided munition capability - perhaps acquired with South African assistance. It is thought that variants of the South African - developed Raptor and/ or MUPSOW multi purpose stand off weapon are undergoing trials in Pakistan. At the same time , Pakistan is widely undersrood to have been supplied with Kentron U-Darter short range AAMs during the 1990s. It is possible that a further relationship has been established for the development of longer range air to air m,issiles. plans for such weapons existed in South Africa though work on them was halted when government funding was cut.
Persistent reports indicate that some of that development effort may have moved to Pakistan, though this is impossible to verify. Pakistan is know to be first in line to recieve China's SD-10 when it is approved for export. There may also be a parallel effort to obtain an interim BVR capability from China in the shape of the FD-60 missile, unveiled earlier this year by CNPMIEC (CHINA NATIONAL PRECISION MACHINERY IMPORT AND EXPORT CORPORATION) Pakistan looking now its second BVR AIM-120 AMRAAM missile with its 75 F-16s.

 

[super7fc1]

Russian RD-93 not for Pakistan AF

Chinese FC-1 to get Russian engines.
Janes defence weekly report. May 2005
Russian's Rosoboronexport has signed a contract with china to supply RD-93 engines for china's new multiroll fighter the FC1.
According to estimates by analysts, the contract value for supply of the first 100 engines. spare pars and organiseation of maintenance is $267 million. Talks are under way to purchase up to 500 extra RD-93 engines.
Since China to export up to 150 FC-1 Thunder aircraft tro Pakistan under the designation JF-17 Thunder. the Sino- Russian contract rules out the re exporting of engines both complete with aircraft and as separate power units. Russian sources have consistently told JDW that moscow would not allow China to re-export the RD-93 engines to Pakistan. Sources in Islamabad responded by stating that any sensitivities would be sidestepped to allow the transfer to go through, perhaps by means of a licensed production deal with china. With these options now closed, it is unclear which engine will power Pakistan's JF-17 fighter.
The contract does not envisage licensed production of the RD-93 in china. The restriction stipulated by the contract are to avoid disturbing the relation between India and Russia should FC1's be supplied to Pakistan. The same stipulation applies to the Zhuk radar, which can be installed only on FC-1 fightrs in service with Chinese air force. The export variant of this aircraft will be fitted with a western-made radar. (most favourite Grifo S-7 & French RC-400-4 radar) some source of Pakistan first 50 JF-17s come with Chinese engine and avionics.
The RD-93 engines bound for China is an in-depth upgrade of the Russian RD-33 twin-grade turbojet engines used in the Mig-29 fighter, with an accessory gearbox to drive the alternate for electric power positioned undernear it provides a thrust of 81.4 KN (18300) with reheat and ensures a speedof 2000 km/h at a flight altitude of 16.5 km.
The RD-93 engine has been developed by the Klimov plant in St Petersburg. the series production of the engie is assigned to the Chernyshev Machine Building Enterprise of Moscow. In 2002-03 China took delivery of a pilot batch of RD-93s for flight tests on three experimental prototype of the FC-1.
Pakistan has requested the possible purchase of 300 Raytheon AIM-9M sidewinder missiles under aforeign military sale wroth $ 46 million. The weapons will replace the current AIM9Ls . Islamabad has also requested 60 Harpoon missiles for $180 million. Senior Pakistani officials said Islamabad has opened talks to acquire another four F-22p vessels after F-22P frigate from China and (Pak navy also looking british type 23) preliminary discussions have been held on the potential purchase of Chinese Submarines.(nuclear power or diesal engine)

 

[mysterious]

Re: Pakistan Airforce's structural monitoring systems

That is very interesting piece of information super7fc1. I must say that this is a good investment by the PAF and it will certainly payoff if the deal goes through all the hurdles.

DARC will also benefit immensely from this as the article says that it will allow DARC to develop its structural testing capability which is vital specially since the Jf-17 project is about to turn towards the mass production line.

P.S. Could you provide the link to that piece of news?

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Chinese FC-1 to get Russian engines.
Janes defence weekly report. May 2005
Russian's Rosoboronexport has signed a contract with china to supply RD-93 engines for china's new multiroll fighter the FC1.
According to estimates by analysts, the contract value for supply of the first 100 engines. spare pars and organiseation of maintenance is $267 million. Talks are under way to purchase up to 500 extra RD-93 engines.
Since China to export up to 150 FC-1 Thunder aircraft tro Pakistan under the designation JF-17 Thunder. the Sino- Russian contract rules out the re exporting of engines both complete with aircraft and as separate power units. Russian sources have consistently told JDW that moscow would not allow China to re-export the RD-93 engines to Pakistan. Sources in Islamabad responded by stating that any sensitivities would be sidestepped to allow the transfer to go through, perhaps by means of a licensed production deal with china. With these options now closed, it is unclear which engine will power Pakistan's JF-17 fighter.
The contract does not envisage licensed production of the RD-93 in china. The restriction stipulated by the contract are to avoid disturbing the relation between India and Russia should FC1's be supplied to Pakistan. The same stipulation applies to the Zhuk radar, which can be installed only on FC-1 fightrs in service with Chinese air force. The export variant of this aircraft will be fitted with a western-made radar. (most favourite Grifo S-7 & French RC-400-4 radar) some source of Pakistan first 50 JF-17s come with Chinese engine and avionics.

Now its clear JF-17 will not get RD-93 but whats next??

 

[mysterious]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

What's next as in? It was the engine only that was the problem since Russia declined its use on PAF versions and any development on this issue would certainly have to come from Sabre for DT.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

What's next as in? It was the engine only that was the problem since Russia declined its use on PAF versions and any development on this issue would certainly have to come from Sabre for DT.

Any idea where Sabre has been recently? Haven't spoken to him for long.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Any idea where Sabre has been recently? Haven't spoken to him for long.

I was away on the mountains, up north near Azad Kashmir. Traveling through dangerous valley & I am Glad to be back. Even though it was beautiful it was breath takeing. "Literally."

Anyways;

Now its clear JF-17 will not get RD-93 but whats next??

What's next as in? It was the engine only that was the problem since Russia declined its use on PAF versions and any development on this issue would certainly have to come from Sabre for DT.

Havent got any exact report on this, neither it is latest. I asked some time ago from a friend. He said earlier version will have RD-93 offcourse unathorized but later versions will have different engines. There are few european countries which are contender to provide engines to Pakistan & than there is a thought of asking them to develop a new engine for JF-17. The two contenders I got hold of were France (Dessault) & Sweden (SAAB + BAe Systems of Britain).

Have the engine been selected or the developer???? Dont know havent asked.
My guess is ready made French engines & later newly developed Chinese engines similar to RD-93. But what ever it is, it would have to have ToT.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

well sabre wont french engines (or any western ones for that matter) increase the overall cost of the aircraft as well as lead to redesigning and delays? :coffee

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Havent got any exact report on this, neither it is latest. I asked some time ago from a friend. He said earlier version will have RD-93 offcourse unathorized but later versions will have different engines. There are few european countries which are contender to provide engines to Pakistan & than there is a thought of asking them to develop a new engine for JF-17. The two contenders I got hold of were France (Dessault) & Sweden (SAAB + BAe Systems of Britain).

But high sea said that its very difficult to change the engine because the design of the entire plane has to be changed.
Developing a new engine will take lot of time.

The engine offered by other countries must exactly match with the specifications of JF-17.

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

But high sea said that its very difficult to change the engine because the design of the entire plane has to be changed.
Developing a new engine will take lot of time.

The engine offered by other countries must exactly match with the specifications of JF-17.

Assuming the Sale wouldn't occur. I find that Unlikely!! JDW is probably right But all that is Public Information floating around.

While PAF ACM Was sticking with the previous Dates. And then you have to consider, this Jet is strategically very important for PAF. I'm sure PAf has a strategy in mind. They May have a Variant Of the Airframe that supports other Engines. You have to consider this Russians are not the Most helpful when it comes to Pakistan. So i would assume PAF has A backup plan to Fall onn. Plus you always have Ukrainians to Fall back onn, they have Matured Aerospace Production and design Facilities too. And they despise Moscow, they have agreement and cooperations with Pak army. I don't think Integrating a newer power-plant on to the current Design would be impossible. For all we know theyve been running a parallel Program After all JF-17 is a different Platform to the FC-1.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

well sabre wont french engines (or any western ones for that matter) increase the overall cost of the aircraft as well as lead to redesigning and delays? :coffee

But high sea said that its very difficult to change the engine because the design of the entire plane has to be changed.
Developing a new engine will take lot of time.

The engine offered by other countries must exactly match with the specifications of JF-17.

I am not a tech expert. All I get is news. For tech I too rely on ppl like highsea.

Anyways I did ask some of ur questions some from others. RD-93 can be reverse engineered but "YES" it would be or "NO" it wont be is some thing neither PAC or CAC will answer. They dont talk.

Temprary French engines are available. They are being offered by French them selves (or thats what PAC claims). About the cost per unit increasing, some officials believe that it does not matter if the cost per unit increases for the Pakistani jet to be used by Pakistan but we must get the best.

As said before I am not tech expert so I can not pass my own judgement. I'll have to ask some one so till than I cant realy answer.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

But high sea said that its very difficult to change the engine because the design of the entire plane has to be changed.
Developing a new engine will take lot of time.

The engine offered by other countries must exactly match with the specifications of JF-17.

It's difficult - but not impossible. There are 3 examples you can see where transplants were done to make a superior platform.

1) Australian CAC Sabre - used a Rolls Royce Avon engine - and canon rather than machine guns.

2) Israeli Kfir (Mirage Conversion) - used the engine out of the F4 Phantom

3) Sth African Cheetah (Mirage Conversion) - a working prototype was made using the Russian Klimov RD-33 engine.

All were successful planes, the first 2 were mass operational and were regarded as the best of their contemporaries.

 

[adsH]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

3) Sth African Cheetah (Mirage Conversion) - a working prototype was made using the Russian Klimov RD-33 engine.

Thanks for that gf!!

This was what i was looking for (Couldn't find sources for this). The South Africans replaced there Original SNECMA with the RD-33 which is a variant of the RD-93. so that mean the same can be done in reverse. the RD-93 can be replaced with the SNECMA. Assuming that the Platform was built with "Adaptability" "flexibility" in Mind. The Plumbing may be an issue that French could assist with. Teh grips are going to be equipped with the TVC version of the of the EuroJet. So it can be done with abit of effort.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Thanks for that gf!!

This was what i was looking for (Couldn't find sources for this). The South Africans replaced there Original SNECMA with the RD-33 which is a variant of the RD-93. so that mean the same can be done in reverse. the RD-93 can be replaced with the SNECMA. Assuming that the Platform was built with "Adaptability" "flexibility" in Mind. The Plumbing may be an issue that French could assist with. Teh grips are going to be equipped with the TVC version of the of the EuroJet. So it can be done with abit of effort.

Both Israel and Sth Africa did it without French help - in fact the Israelis were instrumental in assisting in the Cheetah conversion.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Assuming the Sale wouldn't occur. I find that Unlikely!! JDW is probably right But all that is Public Information floating around.

While PAF ACM Was sticking with the previous Dates. And then you have to consider, this Jet is strategically very important for PAF. I'm sure PAf has a strategy in mind. They May have a Variant Of the Airframe that supports other Engines. You have to consider this Russians are not the Most helpful when it comes to Pakistan. So i would assume PAF has A backup plan to Fall onn. Plus you always have Ukrainians to Fall back onn, they have Matured Aerospace Production and design Facilities too. And they despise Moscow, they have agreement and cooperations with Pak army. I don't think Integrating a newer power-plant on to the current Design would be impossible. For all we know theyve been running a parallel Program After all JF-17 is a different Platform to the FC-1.

eh? Got anything more than speculation. We all know PAF *might* have a backup plan.

 

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I don't think I would count the Cheetah as too successful, (IIRC) there was only one prototype built, and it had some CG problems. I think there was also a SAAF Mirage F1 that was converted, both AC were shipped to Zhukovsky in Russia for the work. But it did have potential, the RD-33 being a more modern engine than the 9K50.

The South Africans replaced there Original SNECMA with the RD-33 which is a variant of the RD-93. so that mean the same can be done in reverse.

The SMR-95 is smaller, lighter, and more powerful than the engines it was replacing, which means that reversing the equation is problematic- putting the Snecma ATAR 9K50 engine into the JF-17 would leave the AC underpowered by 3000 lbs, and the engine is 700mm longer than the RD-93/SMR-95. The M53P2 has the same problem, it is 1000mm longer than the RD-93, and you would need a lot of airframe modifications to handle the extra thrust (not to mention the extra length). And both French engines are 500kg. heavier than the RD-93. IOW, they don't fit. The only French engine that would even go in the hole is the M88-2, and it would leave the JF-17 underpowered by 2000 lbs. And the M88-2 is 400mm smaller in diameter and 800mm shorter in length then the RD-93.

Plus you always have Ukrainians to Fall back onn, they have Matured Aerospace Production and design Facilities too.

There are no Ukranian engines that would fit. The closest is the Progress D-436T2, and it's too fat by 600mm in diameter. (1655mm vs. 1040mm)

The only engines I know of that would even be close to compatible in weight, size, and thrust are the EJ200 and the GE/Volvo RM-12(and the F404, of course). And all of these are about 150-300mm smaller in diameter than the RD-93, but match up well in weight, length and thrust. This is why Saab could even consider the EJ200 for the Gripen- the engines are almost exactly the same size in every respect.

It's not a trivial thing- re-engining the JF-17 will set the project back at least 3 years, if not more, and that's after a suitable engine is found. You can't put a 5000mm engine in a 4000mm hole.

Personally, I think Russia is just waiting to see what India does about the MCRA tender. If India goes for anything other than MiG-29's, I think Russia will not be so reluctant to provide the RD-93's for Pakistan.

adsH- is Saab looking at the EuroJet again? Last I heard, they had scrapped that plan as too expensive.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think the Russian stance will be decided by the IN submarine deal and not the MRCA deal. I remember reading this a few of months ago.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

eh? Got anything more than speculation. We all know PAF *might* have a backup plan.

Yes thats for sure.

While Designing JF-17 ,PAF knows thats a Russia engine can be blocked by India but even then PAF went with RD-93.

Many Claimed that JF-17 will be inducted before LCA but now??

I didn't get u Sri,What Russian Stance are u talking about.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Yes thats for sure.

While Designing JF-17 ,PAF knows thats a Russia engine can be blocked by India but even then PAF went with RD-93.

Many Claimed that JF-17 will be inducted before LCA but now??

I didn't get u Sri,What Russian Stance are u talking about.

Using politics to block the Scorpeane IN deal..