Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

Yes thats for sure.

While Designing JF-17 ,PAF knows thats a Russia engine can be blocked by India but even then PAF went with RD-93.

Many Claimed that JF-17 will be inducted before LCA but now??

I didn't get u Sri,What Russian Stance are u talking about.

If India goes for F-16's then we might get the SU's and also the engines not only the PAF but also the PLAAF would have a plan for other engines to fit in JF-17's for PAF . The redesigning of the airframe is difficult and timetaking butif there is a plan to fit other engine then this would save time.
Time is money

 

[srirangan]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

If India goes for F-16's then we might get the SU's and ..

Nah, I won't rule out all posibility but it is highly highly unlikely!

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Well personally speaking the people ive come across werent that much interested in SU-30 , call it paranoia of some sort PAF is obseesed with western particularly American technology, yheyve always had gr8 respect for US tech, n the induction of F-16 was like a dream come true, but if this f-16 deal goes through i think Paf might like to wait 4 the JF-17 issue to be resolved , but my takes that talking about equipping JF-17 with a US engine is a far cry, US would never cede to it plus theres the WS-13 reported to be in development, a copy of RD-93 with slightly improved thrust at 20 k , well PAF may just have to wait 4 that!!!!!!

 

[highsea]

Re: Russian RD-93not for Pakistan AF

...but also the PLAAF would have a plan for other engines to fit in JF-17's for PAF.

In order to have a "plan", there has to be another compatible engine available, which China doesn't currently have. The closest Chinese engine is the WP13, which is 300mm longer in length, 200kg. heavier, and 4000 lbs. lower in thrust. The WP8,WS6, and WS-10 are too big, and the WP7B is too small.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Nah, I won't rule out all posibility but it is highly highly unlikely!

GF says that its not possible,I have enough confidence in him.
Media is is just making news because it is the first time US has offered fighter to India.

If India goes for F-16's then we might get the SU's and also the engines not only the PAF but also the PLAAF would have a plan for other engines to fit in JF-17's for PAF . The redesigning of the airframe is difficult and timetaking butif there is a plan to fit other engine then this would save time.

There is not even single fact that forces IAF to buy F-16.
Mirages are as effective as F-16,So IAF will go for Mirages.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Well personally speaking the people ive come across werent that much interested in SU-30 , call it paranoia of some sort PAF is obseesed with western particularly American technology, yheyve always had gr8 respect for US tech, n the induction of F-16 was like a dream come true, but if this f-16 deal goes through i think Paf might like to wait 4 the JF-17 issue to be resolved , but my takes that talking about equipping JF-17 with a US engine is a far cry, US would never cede to it plus theres the WS-13 reported to be in development, a copy of RD-93 with slightly improved thrust at 20 k , well PAF may just have to wait 4 that!!!!!!

1st top PAF officials who decide on AC induction "are" interested in Su-30 more than western 4.5 or 5th Gen AC cause of their price (Even though -I just found out- France is heavily marketing Rafale MR Version to Pakistan & KSA at low prices compared to current versions but still expensive at $50million & up).
Russian Defence Minister is quite reluctent to sell Su-30 to Pakistan. He has said this to Pakistan him self (I know couple of diplomats on Russian desk) but he also says that India is larger market than Pakistan which Russia can not afford to loose. But if India settles on Western Fighters than Russia no longer would be obliged to India--this he said to FM & ACM him self (or as I have herd). Now since we know Putin is all powerful man & no one says any thing unless it is signaled by him, I believe what Russian Defence Minister has said are actualy Putins view. Remember as a signal Russia sold Pakistan Mi-17.

2nd PAF can wait if F-16s are inducted & probably thats why 2nd hand F-16s are being purchased or for Free (As Defence Sctry claims) just to fill in the gap but there would a batch of 8 JF-17s released in 2007 all with Russian RD-93 regardless of what Russia says (I found it out-but not from my top sources)

3rd, How can you say US wont provide engine when we have never asked them? ----Highsea is there any American (LH-M, Boeing or Northrop Grumman) engine that can fit into JF-17. Also the other avionics & weapon system (including AIM-9X,9L,9M & AIM-120 AMRAAM).

4th. WS-13, I have been reading alot of it on the net on defence forums but from members not from some credible source (can u give me a link for details on this WS-13) Well we all know that China can & would eventualy reverse engineer RD-93 not only for JF-17 but also for FC-1. Remember JF-17/FC-1 are subjected to export as well & niether China nor Pakistan would want to put in some thing that may be restricted to others. We want free export.
Many ME countries are now on the marketing list including: Syria, KSA (to replace F-5s), Libya, Yemen. There are also some African countries & offcourse NK in Asia (if they can pay says Pakistan & China).

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Anyways I herd that one of the prototypes has visited France quite often as well as the visit by the French. This prototype is the Super-7 not JF-7/FC-1. After Frenc & France visits the wind inlet design was changed & composite material was planned to reduce RCS (how much composite & how much RCS would it reduce? I dont know but it wont make the AC stealthy & thats not even the option). Probably the change in wind inlet has to do some thing with engine. May be some French engine (coustomized) do fit.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

1st top PAF officials who decide on AC induction "are" interested in Su-30 more than western 4.5 or 5th Gen AC cause of their price (Even though -I just found out- France is heavily marketing Rafale MR Version to Pakistan & KSA at low prices compared to current versions but still expensive at $50million & up).
Russian Defence Minister is quite reluctent to sell Su-30 to Pakistan. He has said this to Pakistan him self (I know couple of diplomats on Russian desk) but he also says that India is larger market than Pakistan which Russia can not afford to loose. But if India settles on Western Fighters than Russia no longer would be obliged to India--this he said to FM & ACM him self (or as I have herd). Now since we know Putin is all powerful man & no one says any thing unless it is signaled by him, I believe what Russian Defence Minister has said are actualy Putins view. Remember as a signal Russia sold Pakistan Mi-17.

U made a Small mistake its not western fighters,it american fighters in specific.
India will always make sure that Russia will not sell any major weapon to pakistan,for that they can sacrifice anything,PAC-3,F-16,F-18,P-3 anything.
Russia is ok with India buying French/british weapons becoz french and britain are very old customers for India.
And its not only fighters that Russia thinks about,they sell Infantry rifles to Aircraft Carriers to India.

Remember as a signal Russia sold Pakistan Mi-17.

They might surely have asked India before doing that

 

[highsea]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

...Highsea is there any American (LH-M, Boeing or Northrop Grumman) engine that can fit into JF-17. Also the other avionics & weapon system (including AIM-9X,9L,9M & AIM-120 AMRAAM).

The GE F404 and F414 could both be made to work, but it would require a complete redesign of the engine bay. Dimensionally, they are both the same, the 414 is more advanced and more powerful. Essentially it is an updated 404.

Diameter: RD-93 1040mm, GE F404/F414 880mm, Volvo/GE RM-12 880mm
Length: RD-93 4230mm, GE F404/F414 4030mm, Volvo/GE RM-12 4100mm
Weight: RD-93 1055kg, GE F404/F414 1035kg, Volvo/GE RM-12 1050kg
Max thrust: RD-93 18,300 lbs, GE F404/F414 17,700/22,000 lbs, Volvo/GE RM-12 18,100 lbs
Airflow: RD-93 75.5kg, GE F404/F414 66.2kg/76.8kg, Volvo/GE RM-12 68kg

I doubt the US would allow the F414 anywhere near China, it has too much new tech (It was developed for the Super Hornet). The F404 is not nearly as sensitive wrt exports, it is the engine that powers the earlier F-18's, has some commercial applications, and is the base for the Gripen's RM-12.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

They might surely have asked India before doing that

Russia offered Mi-17 it self. We were getting Cobras for Pakistan army anyways, we dint even had Mi-17 on evaluation desk but since they were being offered for cheap we did buy some of them & also ordered few others (which are yet to be delivered this year).
Now why would Russia sell us some thing we dint ask for (We did in 1996 ask for MiG-29 which they rejected). But later seeing India's interest in American weapons they offered us Mi-17s.

Now do you think Russia would call up India to ask to sale Pakistan Mi-17 which Pakistan is not asking for?
As said before I know ppl in foregin office aswell as defence ministry. Either they tell u the truth or prefer to stay quite. They dint stay quite on this.

The 2nd signal if India goes for Western or American ACs would be the approaval of RD-93 & if India tries to buy American ACs in large numbers than Russia would open Su-30 sales to Pakistan.

Earlier Ukrain had offered Su-27 to Pakistan which for some reason we denied. My believe is that it was also a controled step of Russia not Ukrain it self. Later Ukrain sold us 8 MiG-29s which perform as agressors. This also seems Russian move regardless of Ukrain trying to break away from Russian pressures.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Earlier Ukrain had offered Su-27 to Pakistan which for some reason we denied. My believe is that it was also a controled step of Russia not Ukrain it self. Later Ukrain sold us 8 MiG-29s which perform as agressors. This also seems Russian move regardless of Ukrain trying to break away from Russian pressures.

Sabre can you explain this caz what i can understand is this that Ukranians offered us SU-27 which Pak had denied for some reasons may be Pak wanted latest versions or the fighter could not do that job which could fulfill our requirements and then we have MiG 29's i am hearing this news for the first time PAF have these planes i didnt know that can you explain this thing and if you provide a link then i would be greatful to you

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Later Ukrain sold us 8 MiG-29s which perform as agressors. This also seems Russian move regardless of Ukrain trying to break away from Russian pressures.

Sabre are you Saying that PAF has 8 Ukrainian Mig-29 as part of aggressor Squadrons. As far as i can recall ive never heard of this. But it may be true since the Ukrainians are eager to sell more Weapon systems to Pakistan.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre are you Saying that PAF has 8 Ukrainian Mig-29 as part of aggressor Squadrons. As far as i can recall ive never heard of this. But it may be true since the Ukrainians are eager to sell more Weapon systems to Pakistan.

Nah PAF cant have Mig-29's from Ukrains without the permission of Russia same is the case can PAF have the F-16's and other fighters from other countries without the permission of US . If this news is correct then PAF will get SU's after the decision taken by the Indian Govt whether they want to buy the european AC's or the US one's .I think if India goes for US ones then i cant say sure that PAF will get Russian planes whether they are SU's or the Mig's and if India buy's the french one then i cant say any thing clear India already have Mirage 2000's

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

The 2nd signal if India goes for Western or American ACs would be the approaval of RD-93 & if India tries to buy American ACs in large numbers than Russia would open Su-30 sales to Pakistan.

I don't want to drag the discussion as I have said before Russia is/was/will be ok with India buying European ACs(Mirages),Because it was Western weapons that India has been buying from its independence.
At the same time India will also buy Russia weapons(Mig-29K the latest example)
And Even in the Future (PAK-FA).
India will Make sure that Russia will not sell anything big to pakistan,and also try to stop others from selling to pakistan,Example US F-16(tried but failed to stop),Qatar Mirage-2000-5 etc.

if India buy's the french one then i cant say any thing clear India already have Mirage 2000's

India clearly said that they will look for European Weapons and Russia has no objection or problem with it.

I think PAF should forget about RD-93!!!

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think PAF should forget about RD-93!!!

We all sit here And Discuss Information that is out there. But we don't Even go back and Check Original Scripts of the PAF ACM Interviews. He Reckons there is no problem in Acquiring the Engine. Then why should we doubt that PAC would not be able to Procure them.

And As far as India's relation with Russia is concerned, I doubt India's interest in other weapon systems would make Russia rethink it's terms of the Indo-Russia Alliance.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre are you Saying that PAF has 8 Ukrainian Mig-29 as part of aggressor Squadrons. As far as i can recall ive never heard of this. But it may be true since the Ukrainians are eager to sell more Weapon systems to Pakistan.

It was Umair (the mod who rearly shows up) who told me abt MiG-29s, He said he has seen them him self. Later I asked my sources & they said yes there are MiG-29s given by Ukrain. According to them 8 were borded to Pakistan & 4 more will arrive. Now I dont know that wheather the number is 8 or 12 now. All perform as agressors. PAF fighters train against them. These MiG-29 can not perform in the real time battle. I also herd that there are two Su-27s again sold to us by Ukrain but I dont have confirmation on this. But I am sure they all came by the signal of Russia it self.

I don't want to drag the discussion as I have said before Russia is/was/will be ok with India buying European ACs(Mirages),Because it was Western weapons that India has been buying from its independence.
At the same time India will also buy Russia weapons(Mig-29K the latest example)
And Even in the Future (PAK-FA).
India will Make sure that Russia will not sell anything big to pakistan,and also try to stop others from selling to pakistan,Example US F-16(tried but failed to stop),Qatar Mirage-2000-5 etc.

Not dragging the discussion is better idea..no doubt there.

I dont want to discuss politics here but there is a new port in Pakistan called Gwadar that now itches Russia. By 2010 it would force Russia to open all kind of relations with Pakistan at highest level. You see all the Central Asian oil & Gas will be drained out through Gwadar to the warm waters in the South of Arabian sea. All the western nations will dock their ships to import oil from here. Though the plan was executed by Chinese it was made by the Russians. They tried to invade Gwadar & open their own port through invading Afghanistan but it failed & Russians had to with draw. Now no Western nation would be willing to travel all the way up to Russia to take their oil hence Russia will loose its oil share. Russia offered to develop a sea port in Iran along with a oil pipe line from Russia to Iran but later it realized that no rich western nation allied with USA will be willing to take oil from Iran either & India comes 2nd to Pakistan from west hence Westen nations will take oil from the country which comes 1st.
Former USSR foregin minister had acknowledged this him self. He stated that Russia should have extended the hand of cooporation (to Pakistan) rather than pull out the guns cause the development of Gwadar means jolts to what ever economy of Russia. (I'll tell you the name of the magzine or find you the link of this on the net --let me check it out n find it)

Putting Russia in this possition, I believe the sale of Mi-17 was not only signal to India that Russia would open doors to Pakistan but also signal to Pakistan that they are willing to cooporate with Pakistan. Russia established a steel mill in Pakistan in 1950s & they have just offered cooporation in another steal mill but the contract seems to be going in China's way.

So you see if Russia doesnt open up before time than neither would Pakistan. Iran it self has realized that there is no other way to send gas to india but through Pakistan & are thinking of abondening their port developments (which yet has to go under proper physical development)

Considering all this scenerio the PAF crossed out the MiG-29 ACs & replaced it with Su-30 & officialy asked for it from Russian which Russians have not yet officialy nor unofficialy denied to Pakistan. They are keeping it on pending.
And the RD-93 deal may just go through but since China is working on its reverse engineered & better version WS-13, Pakistan may settle for Chinese one. Again Russia's decision sell it now or hold its peace.

 

[super7fc1]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Hello all Dearest members
Any one informe me for this news, "Some one tolled me Pakistan want Russian SU-35 Super Flanker aircrafts and SU-25 Frogfoot close air support aircrafts for its airforce". why Pakistan want Russian fighters, because,
1) First we want to brack russian policy "not for Pakistan"
2) Russia fully struggle to purchase its master piece like Su-35, Su-37, Su-32 naval version + attack helicopters+others, but many Russian customers turn to west.
3) India now turn to westren weapon system like Scorpion submarine,Missiles, missiles defence system, ASW aircrafts, 126 new fighters, military engines, Trainers, +
4) American defence companies entered Indian defence markeet & Russian defence items goes to down,
5) Pakistan want others defence item from Russia like Transport aircrafts, helicopters, radars, missiles,
Pakistan want to replace its A-5 squadron & Su-25 very good against A-5s su-25 best option against europeon aircrafts like Jaguar/Tornado and Chinese JH-7.
Pakistan also looking F-10 fighter & last year 9th December F-10 saw in Karachi airspace. and after 2 or 3 days Z-9G was fly. i asked on pakdef forum
for that 3 eyewitnes informe they saw F-10 with RED numbers and without Chinese marking.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What!?

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

[Admin: Edited]

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Hello all Dearest members
Any one informe me for this news, "Some one tolled me Pakistan want Russian SU-35 Super Flanker aircrafts and SU-25 Frogfoot close air support aircrafts for its airforce". why Pakistan want Russian fighters, because,
1) First we want to brack russian policy "not for Pakistan"
2) Russia fully struggle to purchase its master piece like Su-35, Su-37, Su-32 naval version + attack helicopters+others, but many Russian customers turn to west.
3) India now turn to westren weapon system like Scorpion submarine,Missiles, missiles defence system, ASW aircrafts, 126 new fighters, military engines, Trainers, +
4) American defence companies entered Indian defence markeet & Russian defence items goes to down,
5) Pakistan want others defence item from Russia like Transport aircrafts, helicopters, radars, missiles,
Pakistan want to replace its A-5 squadron & Su-25 very good against A-5s su-25 best option against europeon aircrafts like Jaguar/Tornado and Chinese JH-7.
Pakistan also looking F-10 fighter & last year 9th December F-10 saw in Karachi airspace. and after 2 or 3 days Z-9G was fly. i asked on pakdef forum
for that 3 eyewitnes informe they saw F-10 with RED numbers and without Chinese marking.

No F-10/J-10 took to Pakistani space, ask those I witness in which city did they saw the AirCraft, than I will answer you if its true or false. But I believe no J-10 took to the skies in Pakistan.

Pakistan does not have Su-25 on the table & will use A-5C (& may buy A-5D)upgrades till 2010. The replacement for A-5 is unkown. We should probably go for A-10.

Yes Pakistan has officialy asked for Su-35 from Russia. Russia has yet to take decision. I think they will wait to see what India buys & from where it buys.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

No F-10/J-10 took to Pakistani space, ask those I witness in which city did they saw the AirCraft, than I will answer you if its true or false. But I believe no J-10 took to the skies in Pakistan.

Pakistan does not have Su-25 on the table & will use A-5C (& may buy A-5D)upgrades till 2010. The replacement for A-5 is unkown. We should probably go for A-10.

Yes Pakistan has officialy asked for Su-35 from Russia. Russia has yet to take decision. I think they will wait to see what India buys & from where it buys.

If the J-10 is on that stage or it is in the advance stage i mean to say that whether the prototypes have been make then the plane may have flew in Pak skies and there is a chance that there might be a secret project between PAK and the China that they both are developing the plane or the china doind the all production work and PAF want's to buy some and firstly want to test some

Pak cannot replace the old planes before 2010 caz the FC-1 will take some time to come into production and PAF would surely want to have a superior plane then the SU-25 or that AC can do the multirole job

Sabre can you tell me the price of single SU-35??


[Admin Edit: text omitted]

What!?

Sri WHAT say something i think this is not a one liner post there is only a single word in this post