Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Oh by the way the Entire Block 60 was built out of Off the shelf tech, even the source codes were rewritten in the Open standard C++. so the entire project has only two US gov input the DOD's Five Encryption algorithms and the Aircrew training. the Engineers are going to be trained by LM. I doubt the source codes would be available to anyone including the Israelis the Flight controls and the Fire-controls are probably the Hardest source-codes to bargain for.
Oh by the way the Entire Block 60 was built out of Off the shelf tech, even the source codes were rewritten in the Open standard C++. so the entire project has only two US gov input the DOD's Five Encryption algorithms and the Aircrew training. the Engineers are going to be trained by LM. I doubt the source codes would be available to anyone including the Israelis the Flight controls and the Fire-controls are probably the Hardest source-codes to bargain for.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
From the December 2003 Flight International (I believe the same article you previously quoted, please provide sources!):
Here is a picture of a UAE F-16E:
ECS= Environmental Control System. Yes, this is the cooling system for the APG-80.adsH said:
As I said, it is located in the spine on the two-seaters. 55 of the UAE's Block 60's are "E" models- single seaters. Since these AC do not have the full dorsal spine, you can't put the Secondary ECS system there! That's why it's located in the tail fairings on these versions.
From the December 2003 Flight International (I believe the same article you previously quoted, please provide sources!):
In other words, the spine and fairings on the block 60 are the same as the block 50- there is no reason the APG-80 cannot be fitted on block 50's.
Here is a picture of a UAE F-16E:
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Sabre what Highsea meant was that on the E variant AKA C of the Block 50 the spine is not required. since you don't need the extra space. you have enough sapce in the ventrical fin , the spine is used for additional avionics eqt for the two seater to accommodate the secondary ECS. The spine can also have extra Chaf and flares. the Spine obviously has drag penalties so its usually only for two seater since more space is required to acomodate the Extra stuff.SABRE said:So to get APG-80 AESA Radar we need to get this spine on Block-50/52+ as well?
& cant the spine just be fitted internaly, externaly it gives away F-16s looks?
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Anyways isnt there any way of putting the spine inside F-16D/F. Out side besides giving away the look it will also allows enemy AC to take out the spine (that it if he wants to) other wise AC in WVR one is doomed to go down. Shooting off the spine will make it easier for him.
Oh yeah I read the part on E & C (Single seaters not requiring Spine) I forgot, it got of my mind.adsH said:
Anyways isnt there any way of putting the spine inside F-16D/F. Out side besides giving away the look it will also allows enemy AC to take out the spine (that it if he wants to) other wise AC in WVR one is doomed to go down. Shooting off the spine will make it easier for him.
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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/news/FullNews/2005/May2005/FormalRequest75F16s.htm
Pakistan Submits Formal Request To Buy 75 Upgraded Block 50/52 F-16s
May 29, 2005: Pakistan has submitted its request to buy 75 new and upgraded F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft after the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, said US Defence Security Cooperation Agency head Air Force Lt-General Jeffrey Kohler on Wednesday. Kohler told reporters in Washington that Pakistan had also asked about buying 11 used F-16s.
Earlier press reports said Pakistan was seeking to buy only 24 then 55 F-16s. But the numbers cited by Kohler suggest that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet. As part of the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet modernization program, Pakistan is also buying the JF-17 Thunder light fighter aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan. Pakistan has ordered 150 JF-17s. The JF-17 is a Mach 1.6-Mach 2 aircraft, with advanced avionics and excellent handling capability. Although it is not in the same league as fourth- and fifth-generation western fighters like the F-16 Block 50/52 or the French Mirage 2000-5, it is more than a match for India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is expected to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force in the future. At $ 15 million per copy, the JF-17 is also much cheaper than the F-16. The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $ 40 million to $ 45 million each, depending on avionics and other options. So 75 of these F-16s would cost Pakistan between $ 3 billion to $ 3.375 billion.
As against this, 150 JF-17s will cost Pakistan $ 2.25 billion, in nominal terms. But the net cost to Pakistan will be considerably less. Under the terms of the income-sharing formula agreed between the Chinese manufacturer, Chengdu Aircraft Group of Companies, and the PAF’s Aircraft Factory at Kamra (which will supply manpower, aircraft components and other inputs), 50 per cent of the proceeds from all JF-17 sales will come to Pakistan as its share. Thus, the net cost to Pakistan of the JF-17s ordered by the PAF could be reduced by as much as $ 7.5 million per copy, bringing the cost of the aircraft down to $ 7.5 million — for a total net price tag of $ 1.125 billion for 150 J-17s.
Kohler said that Pakistan had requested prices for F-16c/D Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States Air Force and the current production standard. He said similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel. Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defence and range. The UAE acquired eighty Block 60 F-16s under a deal with the American manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, concluded in 2000, at a total contract price of $ 8 billion, or $ 100 million per plane. But this price tag included the cost of missile systems fitted to the aircraft.
The US was initially reluctant to supply the missile systems. But it agreed to do so after UAE officials said they were not interested in buying the F-16s if the deal did not include the missile systems. Kohler said he had held arms-sales talks with Pakistani Defence Ministry officials last month. He said, "I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the request for new aircraft and may increase slightly the used."
A team of executives from Lockheed Martin’s F-16 assembly plant in Fort Worth, Texas, is due in Islamabad shortly to discuss the proposed sale. Meanwhile, the good news from Pakistan’s point of view is that the Chinese Air Force has now also decided to buy 200 JF-17s, in a deal that could be worth up to $ 3 billion. Under the income-sharing formula agreed between the two countries, Pakistan’s share of revenue from the sale to the Chinese Air Force could total as much as $ 1.5 billion, making the deal an important new source of foreign currency earnings for this country.
Moreover, the sale to the Chinese Air Force is expected to greatly boost the prospects for the JF-17 on the world market. Sales to other countries would substantially add to Pakistan’s foreign currency earnings in the years ahead, which would help to reduce its trade gap and improve its balance of payments. China and Pakistan tested the first prototype of the JF-17, also known FC-1 or the Super-7, on August 25, 2003. A publicly held test flight was made in Chengdu, capital of southwest China’s Sichuan province, on September 3, 2003, with Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat attending the ceremony. The Chinese news agency Xinhua reported that the maiden eight-minute flight of the plane, named Xiaolong (or Fierce Dragon), proved highly successful at Wenjiang Airport in Chengdu.
During the test flight, the plane demonstrated its outstanding mobility, and good interception and ground attack capability. With its advanced design and state-of-the-art manufacturing technology, the JF-17 has the combat capability of a third-generation fighter plane and is on par with the world’s most advanced light fighter aircraft. With its small size and relatively low cost, the plane is suitable for modern combat operations and ideal for sales to developing countries that cannot afford to pay the much higher prices of western jet fighters in the same category.
The JF-17 has some features like advanced avionics and cost effectiveness that give it an edge over India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft. From Pakistan’s perspective, this makes the JF-17 an attractive option to replace its ageing fleet of Mirages, F-7s and A-5s. The JF-17 is a light weight, all-weather, multi-role aircraft with a speed of Mach 1.6-Mach 2 and a high thrust-to-weight ratio. It has the ability to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. In surface attack and interdiction roles, the aircraft can strike at long distances. It can also carry high- and low-drag bombs, laser-guided bombs, runway-penetration bombs and cluster bombs. Its engine is of Russian origin, and is being made in China under license. China and Pakistan have invested more than $ 500 million in the development of the aircraft. The JF-17 project has been completed in a record time of four years.
Following the September 3, 2003 maiden test flight, the aircraft began undergoing a validation process, which is expected to take two-and-a-half years. Serial production is due to start in January 2006. The JF-17 has an advanced flight control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls, making it highly agile and manoeuvrable. It is capable of carrying a variety of weapons systems including short-range missiles, beyond-visual-range missiles, anti-ship missiles and anti-radiation missiles. The JF-17 would meet the PAF’s bulk requirement, while induction of the fourth-generation F-16s offered to Pakistan by the United States in March 2005 would give the country’s air defence a cutting edge. In addition to the fourth-generation F-16 Block 50/52, other fourth-generation options being considered by the PAF include the French Mirage 2000-5, the Russian SU-30 and a Swedish aircraft.
China and Pakistan plan to also target markets in the Middle East, Africa and South America for sales of the plane. Any reduction in the $ 15 million per plane cost due to an increase in the production run would make it an even more attractive proposition for overseas buyers. The JF-17 fighter is also expected to be attractive for overseas buyers due to its advanced avionics and high maneuverability.China is Pakistan’s main defence supplier. The two countries have cooperated on a number of projects, including joint production of the K-8 jet trainer aircraft. The K-8 has been inducted into the Pakistan Air Force and has also been sold to several other countries. A $ 40 million deal for the sale of ten K-8s to Saudi Arabia was finalized in September 2003.
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/news/FullNews/2005/May2005/FormalRequest75F16s.htm
Pakistan Submits Formal Request To Buy 75 Upgraded Block 50/52 F-16s
May 29, 2005: Pakistan has submitted its request to buy 75 new and upgraded F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft after the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, said US Defence Security Cooperation Agency head Air Force Lt-General Jeffrey Kohler on Wednesday. Kohler told reporters in Washington that Pakistan had also asked about buying 11 used F-16s.
Earlier press reports said Pakistan was seeking to buy only 24 then 55 F-16s. But the numbers cited by Kohler suggest that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet. As part of the Pakistan Air Force’s fleet modernization program, Pakistan is also buying the JF-17 Thunder light fighter aircraft jointly developed by China and Pakistan. Pakistan has ordered 150 JF-17s. The JF-17 is a Mach 1.6-Mach 2 aircraft, with advanced avionics and excellent handling capability. Although it is not in the same league as fourth- and fifth-generation western fighters like the F-16 Block 50/52 or the French Mirage 2000-5, it is more than a match for India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that is expected to be the mainstay of the Indian Air Force in the future. At $ 15 million per copy, the JF-17 is also much cheaper than the F-16. The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $ 40 million to $ 45 million each, depending on avionics and other options. So 75 of these F-16s would cost Pakistan between $ 3 billion to $ 3.375 billion.
As against this, 150 JF-17s will cost Pakistan $ 2.25 billion, in nominal terms. But the net cost to Pakistan will be considerably less. Under the terms of the income-sharing formula agreed between the Chinese manufacturer, Chengdu Aircraft Group of Companies, and the PAF’s Aircraft Factory at Kamra (which will supply manpower, aircraft components and other inputs), 50 per cent of the proceeds from all JF-17 sales will come to Pakistan as its share. Thus, the net cost to Pakistan of the JF-17s ordered by the PAF could be reduced by as much as $ 7.5 million per copy, bringing the cost of the aircraft down to $ 7.5 million — for a total net price tag of $ 1.125 billion for 150 J-17s.
Kohler said that Pakistan had requested prices for F-16c/D Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States Air Force and the current production standard. He said similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel. Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defence and range. The UAE acquired eighty Block 60 F-16s under a deal with the American manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, concluded in 2000, at a total contract price of $ 8 billion, or $ 100 million per plane. But this price tag included the cost of missile systems fitted to the aircraft.
The US was initially reluctant to supply the missile systems. But it agreed to do so after UAE officials said they were not interested in buying the F-16s if the deal did not include the missile systems. Kohler said he had held arms-sales talks with Pakistani Defence Ministry officials last month. He said, "I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the request for new aircraft and may increase slightly the used."
A team of executives from Lockheed Martin’s F-16 assembly plant in Fort Worth, Texas, is due in Islamabad shortly to discuss the proposed sale. Meanwhile, the good news from Pakistan’s point of view is that the Chinese Air Force has now also decided to buy 200 JF-17s, in a deal that could be worth up to $ 3 billion. Under the income-sharing formula agreed between the two countries, Pakistan’s share of revenue from the sale to the Chinese Air Force could total as much as $ 1.5 billion, making the deal an important new source of foreign currency earnings for this country.
Moreover, the sale to the Chinese Air Force is expected to greatly boost the prospects for the JF-17 on the world market. Sales to other countries would substantially add to Pakistan’s foreign currency earnings in the years ahead, which would help to reduce its trade gap and improve its balance of payments. China and Pakistan tested the first prototype of the JF-17, also known FC-1 or the Super-7, on August 25, 2003. A publicly held test flight was made in Chengdu, capital of southwest China’s Sichuan province, on September 3, 2003, with Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat attending the ceremony. The Chinese news agency Xinhua reported that the maiden eight-minute flight of the plane, named Xiaolong (or Fierce Dragon), proved highly successful at Wenjiang Airport in Chengdu.
During the test flight, the plane demonstrated its outstanding mobility, and good interception and ground attack capability. With its advanced design and state-of-the-art manufacturing technology, the JF-17 has the combat capability of a third-generation fighter plane and is on par with the world’s most advanced light fighter aircraft. With its small size and relatively low cost, the plane is suitable for modern combat operations and ideal for sales to developing countries that cannot afford to pay the much higher prices of western jet fighters in the same category.
The JF-17 has some features like advanced avionics and cost effectiveness that give it an edge over India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft. From Pakistan’s perspective, this makes the JF-17 an attractive option to replace its ageing fleet of Mirages, F-7s and A-5s. The JF-17 is a light weight, all-weather, multi-role aircraft with a speed of Mach 1.6-Mach 2 and a high thrust-to-weight ratio. It has the ability to engage targets at all speeds and altitudes within the conventional flying envelope. In surface attack and interdiction roles, the aircraft can strike at long distances. It can also carry high- and low-drag bombs, laser-guided bombs, runway-penetration bombs and cluster bombs. Its engine is of Russian origin, and is being made in China under license. China and Pakistan have invested more than $ 500 million in the development of the aircraft. The JF-17 project has been completed in a record time of four years.
Following the September 3, 2003 maiden test flight, the aircraft began undergoing a validation process, which is expected to take two-and-a-half years. Serial production is due to start in January 2006. The JF-17 has an advanced flight control system, which is a mix of conventional and fly-by-wire controls, making it highly agile and manoeuvrable. It is capable of carrying a variety of weapons systems including short-range missiles, beyond-visual-range missiles, anti-ship missiles and anti-radiation missiles. The JF-17 would meet the PAF’s bulk requirement, while induction of the fourth-generation F-16s offered to Pakistan by the United States in March 2005 would give the country’s air defence a cutting edge. In addition to the fourth-generation F-16 Block 50/52, other fourth-generation options being considered by the PAF include the French Mirage 2000-5, the Russian SU-30 and a Swedish aircraft.
China and Pakistan plan to also target markets in the Middle East, Africa and South America for sales of the plane. Any reduction in the $ 15 million per plane cost due to an increase in the production run would make it an even more attractive proposition for overseas buyers. The JF-17 fighter is also expected to be attractive for overseas buyers due to its advanced avionics and high maneuverability.China is Pakistan’s main defence supplier. The two countries have cooperated on a number of projects, including joint production of the K-8 jet trainer aircraft. The K-8 has been inducted into the Pakistan Air Force and has also been sold to several other countries. A $ 40 million deal for the sale of ten K-8s to Saudi Arabia was finalized in September 2003.
rafale_2k5
New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
I dont know how can the JF-17 be superior to LCA, given the specs and host of other features like FBW, composites , radar , LCA is far superior to JF-17 given the fact that what all is available in open sources is true whereas JF-17 yet to finf a radar , has engine embatgoes 4 Pakistani versions and nobody is pretty clear on the avionics suite, so keeping patriotism behind us purely on specs LCA is a better aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dont know how can the JF-17 be superior to LCA, given the specs and host of other features like FBW, composites , radar , LCA is far superior to JF-17 given the fact that what all is available in open sources is true whereas JF-17 yet to finf a radar , has engine embatgoes 4 Pakistani versions and nobody is pretty clear on the avionics suite, so keeping patriotism behind us purely on specs LCA is a better aircraft!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PAF chief on F-16s and other ACs
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: The US would complete the process of approving Pakistan’s request for 75 multifaceted F-16 Fighting Falcons by September or October, hoped Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat here Monday.
"It’s not a done deal either way....we want 75 advanced version Falcons of which 50 to 55 must be Cs and Ds class and others may be used but upgraded ones," he said.,
He was giving an interview to The News/Jang panel comprising Fahd Hussain (Editor, The News, Rawalpindi), Shakil Shaikh (Chief Reporter, The News, Rawalpindi), Hanif Khalid (Chief Reporter Daily Jang) and Rana Ghulam Qader (Staff Report Daily Jang) at his Air Headquarters office.
He said, "Pakistan has already rejected the offer of 25 F-16 jets by the Americans." Saadat said even with the arrival of Falcons, disparity gap of the fighter jets between India and Pakistan would not be bridged. "But we should have an air force with deterrence value, as a few dozen Falcons would not be acceptable to us."
The General Dynamics F-I 6A and two-seat F-I 6B were succeeded in 1983 by the F-I 6C and two-seat F-I 6D, with new radar, totally upgraded avionics, a new cockpit and many extra items including two Lantirn pods filled with infrared, laser and other types of sensor which assist in night attack. Pakistan, the air force chief said, would like to have as many F-16 Falcons as it is possible given the ground realities. "We want a number of multi-role Cs and Ds F-16 Falcons which restore our original capability."
One F-16 would cost Pakistan around $40 million and probably the money would be paid from the aid package, as 75 F-16s would cost Pakistan a huge amount ($3 billion).
"We are not in an arms race with India, as Pakistan wants to give peace a chance which should not come through weakness but a position of strength," said Saadat.
Clad in his uniform, the Air Force Chief said Pakistan has not given up its other options like Grippen jets, though "the option of Mirage-2000-5 is almost given up as the French people are now aggressively marketing their Rafale aircraft."
Justifying Pakistan’s quest to acquire 75 Fighting Falcons from the Americans, Saadat said: "Our effort is to have deterrence value and if an enemy aircraft intends to violate our air space, the incoming flying machine must be shot down or we must have the capability to give a matching response."
He believed that Pakistan Air Force should be good enough to give a fight that hurts the enemy.
"Effective fleet of aircraft with good weapons and avionics can make the difference in modern warfare where one is not required to send land forces like in the past to occupy enemy land...now it is the war to see how much damage can be caused to the enemy."
Saadat said the key purpose of an air force is to cease, move and destroy enemy things and realising this the government at the highest level has allocated sufficient funds to it with maximum allocation made out of three services.
"With changing concept of warfare, the PAF is very much equipped with giving the enemy a good fight and it depends on a combination of factors," he maintained.
Saadat said it is not an easy thing or immediate possibility to produce high-quality equipment through indigenisation, as this process of indigenisation is very, very slow and it requires huge investment, and an organised structure.
"It would be our wishful thinking to start producing high-quality military hardware and weapons."
He said the government has already approved a 10-15 years integrated plan for the country’s forces and PAF was given the best deal for which we should be proud of.
He said JF-17 Thunder, a Pak-China joint venture, induction would prove best for the force, as there is no prize for a runner up in the war.
"We can go further in avionics and other things once the production of JF-17 starts...it’s an extremely good and important project," said Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who succeeded as chief of air staff on March 18, 2003 following the demise of Mushaf Ali Mir in an air crash.
"JF-17 will be better than all the existing aircraft - Mirages, A-5 and F-7. These are in no way close to it," he said adding, "it will replace all these aircraft."
JF-17 Thunder will be a mid-tech aircraft and within a couple of years it will be produced as test flights have already run.
He said Pakistan was offered to buy Hawkeye E-2C but it is unlikely that the PAF would opt for it, though a long list of weapons were handed over to the Americans and it would take some time to go through a process before the final decision is taken by the US administration.
He said no breakthrough is achieved with Russia in arms purchase and it could only happen once India parts its ways with Moscow and look the other way.
He said no deal is being negotiated with Britain and that could only happen if they offer integrated system. "That is why, I am not going to Paris Air Show, nor did I visit London because the British make the excuse of American sanctions in that realm," said Saadat.
He said the US sanctions are still there in view of the intellectual property rights and sensitive technologies. "The PAF has got no benefit out of non-Nato status given to Pakistan," he said.
Responding to a question, he said he is not regularly flying. He said it is a sensational outing, and one is on his own after taking off.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/31-05-2005/main/main9.htm
this does answer some of the questions that have been up and running in here, and also very interesting that the mirage 2000-5 is almost out of the picture. I'm also surprised that there is no mention of the Erieye.
Saadat flies by F-16 deterrence value
Acquisition of jets won’t bridge imbalance with India, admits air chief
By Shakil Shaikh
ISLAMABAD: The US would complete the process of approving Pakistan’s request for 75 multifaceted F-16 Fighting Falcons by September or October, hoped Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat here Monday.
"It’s not a done deal either way....we want 75 advanced version Falcons of which 50 to 55 must be Cs and Ds class and others may be used but upgraded ones," he said.,
He was giving an interview to The News/Jang panel comprising Fahd Hussain (Editor, The News, Rawalpindi), Shakil Shaikh (Chief Reporter, The News, Rawalpindi), Hanif Khalid (Chief Reporter Daily Jang) and Rana Ghulam Qader (Staff Report Daily Jang) at his Air Headquarters office.
He said, "Pakistan has already rejected the offer of 25 F-16 jets by the Americans." Saadat said even with the arrival of Falcons, disparity gap of the fighter jets between India and Pakistan would not be bridged. "But we should have an air force with deterrence value, as a few dozen Falcons would not be acceptable to us."
The General Dynamics F-I 6A and two-seat F-I 6B were succeeded in 1983 by the F-I 6C and two-seat F-I 6D, with new radar, totally upgraded avionics, a new cockpit and many extra items including two Lantirn pods filled with infrared, laser and other types of sensor which assist in night attack. Pakistan, the air force chief said, would like to have as many F-16 Falcons as it is possible given the ground realities. "We want a number of multi-role Cs and Ds F-16 Falcons which restore our original capability."
One F-16 would cost Pakistan around $40 million and probably the money would be paid from the aid package, as 75 F-16s would cost Pakistan a huge amount ($3 billion).
"We are not in an arms race with India, as Pakistan wants to give peace a chance which should not come through weakness but a position of strength," said Saadat.
Clad in his uniform, the Air Force Chief said Pakistan has not given up its other options like Grippen jets, though "the option of Mirage-2000-5 is almost given up as the French people are now aggressively marketing their Rafale aircraft."
Justifying Pakistan’s quest to acquire 75 Fighting Falcons from the Americans, Saadat said: "Our effort is to have deterrence value and if an enemy aircraft intends to violate our air space, the incoming flying machine must be shot down or we must have the capability to give a matching response."
He believed that Pakistan Air Force should be good enough to give a fight that hurts the enemy.
"Effective fleet of aircraft with good weapons and avionics can make the difference in modern warfare where one is not required to send land forces like in the past to occupy enemy land...now it is the war to see how much damage can be caused to the enemy."
Saadat said the key purpose of an air force is to cease, move and destroy enemy things and realising this the government at the highest level has allocated sufficient funds to it with maximum allocation made out of three services.
"With changing concept of warfare, the PAF is very much equipped with giving the enemy a good fight and it depends on a combination of factors," he maintained.
Saadat said it is not an easy thing or immediate possibility to produce high-quality equipment through indigenisation, as this process of indigenisation is very, very slow and it requires huge investment, and an organised structure.
"It would be our wishful thinking to start producing high-quality military hardware and weapons."
He said the government has already approved a 10-15 years integrated plan for the country’s forces and PAF was given the best deal for which we should be proud of.
He said JF-17 Thunder, a Pak-China joint venture, induction would prove best for the force, as there is no prize for a runner up in the war.
"We can go further in avionics and other things once the production of JF-17 starts...it’s an extremely good and important project," said Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who succeeded as chief of air staff on March 18, 2003 following the demise of Mushaf Ali Mir in an air crash.
"JF-17 will be better than all the existing aircraft - Mirages, A-5 and F-7. These are in no way close to it," he said adding, "it will replace all these aircraft."
JF-17 Thunder will be a mid-tech aircraft and within a couple of years it will be produced as test flights have already run.
He said Pakistan was offered to buy Hawkeye E-2C but it is unlikely that the PAF would opt for it, though a long list of weapons were handed over to the Americans and it would take some time to go through a process before the final decision is taken by the US administration.
He said no breakthrough is achieved with Russia in arms purchase and it could only happen once India parts its ways with Moscow and look the other way.
He said no deal is being negotiated with Britain and that could only happen if they offer integrated system. "That is why, I am not going to Paris Air Show, nor did I visit London because the British make the excuse of American sanctions in that realm," said Saadat.
He said the US sanctions are still there in view of the intellectual property rights and sensitive technologies. "The PAF has got no benefit out of non-Nato status given to Pakistan," he said.
Responding to a question, he said he is not regularly flying. He said it is a sensational outing, and one is on his own after taking off.
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/31-05-2005/main/main9.htm
this does answer some of the questions that have been up and running in here, and also very interesting that the mirage 2000-5 is almost out of the picture. I'm also surprised that there is no mention of the Erieye.
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Re: PAF chief on F-16s and other ACs
Hmm....you have miss understood him mate. He ment that French are marketing Rafale to Pakistan & every one else. In order to increase Rafales demand they are down grading the demand for M2k-5....doesnt seem like a good idea to me. some of my sources had already told me & I think I did mention here that Rafale & Mirage2000 are being measured up. I think French are pushing Pakistan towards up coming multi-role version of Rafales, which they claim would be cheaper (Abt $45million/AC).
Anyways here is my new digging.....JAS-39 Gripen were never denied to Pakistan, what was denied was the weapon system. US rejected the sell of Gripens weapon system to Pakistan when Musharaf visited. One of my source has informed me that Pakistan has demanded weapon systems for the Gripens, if they buy it. Hence the Gripens are back on the list & Mirage2000-5 seems highly un-reasonable product when you have Gripens on the list. But it is also highly un-reasonable to keep to ACs primarily made for same purpose & use almost entirely the same Weapon Systems.
Pakistan will now continue its discussions with Sweden over the AWACs which were given a break period for consideration. After the finalization of the deal Pakistan may start discussions over Gripens. If the deal goes through than we may not see any French Jet for long long time.
Meanwhile PAF has rejecte dany inferior avionics & weapon system over the F-16s being purchased. It has been lernt that the officials had put much imphesiss on adavnce BVR (this should be AIM-120), advance WVR (could be AIM-9X) & advance Radars & MLU on the similar bases. Otherwise PAF has threatened to purchase only 24 & MLU of the older ones & go ahead with the purchase of some other AC.
Hmm....you have miss understood him mate. He ment that French are marketing Rafale to Pakistan & every one else. In order to increase Rafales demand they are down grading the demand for M2k-5....doesnt seem like a good idea to me. some of my sources had already told me & I think I did mention here that Rafale & Mirage2000 are being measured up. I think French are pushing Pakistan towards up coming multi-role version of Rafales, which they claim would be cheaper (Abt $45million/AC).
Anyways here is my new digging.....JAS-39 Gripen were never denied to Pakistan, what was denied was the weapon system. US rejected the sell of Gripens weapon system to Pakistan when Musharaf visited. One of my source has informed me that Pakistan has demanded weapon systems for the Gripens, if they buy it. Hence the Gripens are back on the list & Mirage2000-5 seems highly un-reasonable product when you have Gripens on the list. But it is also highly un-reasonable to keep to ACs primarily made for same purpose & use almost entirely the same Weapon Systems.
Pakistan will now continue its discussions with Sweden over the AWACs which were given a break period for consideration. After the finalization of the deal Pakistan may start discussions over Gripens. If the deal goes through than we may not see any French Jet for long long time.
Meanwhile PAF has rejecte dany inferior avionics & weapon system over the F-16s being purchased. It has been lernt that the officials had put much imphesiss on adavnce BVR (this should be AIM-120), advance WVR (could be AIM-9X) & advance Radars & MLU on the similar bases. Otherwise PAF has threatened to purchase only 24 & MLU of the older ones & go ahead with the purchase of some other AC.
mysterious
New Member
Re: PAF chief on F-16s and other ACs
Finally PAF officials are talking sense I'd say! If you get the F-16s with the advance BVR and WVR, then its worthwhile to get more; otherwise, its just back to the 24 if you aint getting nothing worthwhile with 'em.
I'd still say if the multi-role version of the Rafael can be bought for $45m a pop, it would be worthwhile to wait a bit more when we've waited this much already. Otherwise, imo, if the price exceeds $50m/$55m, then its just better to go with the Gripens (of course with the weapons systems that Pakistan wants) as them being point-defense fighters would fit in quite nicely with the PAF operational strategy (which primarily is protection of Pakistani airspace from aggressors).
These two are the leading contenders for PAF's frontline as far as I am concerned and I'm sure PAF officials would find a way to bag either of them with careful planning and steps that go in to acquiring an AC of such sorts.
Finally PAF officials are talking sense I'd say! If you get the F-16s with the advance BVR and WVR, then its worthwhile to get more; otherwise, its just back to the 24 if you aint getting nothing worthwhile with 'em.
I'd still say if the multi-role version of the Rafael can be bought for $45m a pop, it would be worthwhile to wait a bit more when we've waited this much already. Otherwise, imo, if the price exceeds $50m/$55m, then its just better to go with the Gripens (of course with the weapons systems that Pakistan wants) as them being point-defense fighters would fit in quite nicely with the PAF operational strategy (which primarily is protection of Pakistani airspace from aggressors).
These two are the leading contenders for PAF's frontline as far as I am concerned and I'm sure PAF officials would find a way to bag either of them with careful planning and steps that go in to acquiring an AC of such sorts.
Re: PAF chief on F-16s and other ACs
I am still with Rafales. If USA doesnt give us advance weapon system than rather than buying 75 F-16s jump on to Rafales. For 3.5 Billion you can get descent numbers of Rafales. Buy both A2A & multirole versions.
If USA does (which I hope it does...cause that will be better for PAF) allow advance weapon systems (according to top experts either USA has or will allow the sale...chance are 90%) than still I go for Rafales but after buying 75 to 86 F-16s we probably wont have funds to buy any other AC for abt 5 yrs. Its enough to wait for MR-Rafales.
PAF should go back to 1965 formations. Use one or two AC for MultiRole & another for Air-Defence. (e.g: F-86Sabres & F-104 StarFighter for Air Defence....+ Mirage-3 to do both).
Now we should keep F-16s for multirole, Rafale/Gripens/Mirage2000-5 for Air Defence & JF-17 for both.
I am still with Rafales. If USA doesnt give us advance weapon system than rather than buying 75 F-16s jump on to Rafales. For 3.5 Billion you can get descent numbers of Rafales. Buy both A2A & multirole versions.
If USA does (which I hope it does...cause that will be better for PAF) allow advance weapon systems (according to top experts either USA has or will allow the sale...chance are 90%) than still I go for Rafales but after buying 75 to 86 F-16s we probably wont have funds to buy any other AC for abt 5 yrs. Its enough to wait for MR-Rafales.
PAF should go back to 1965 formations. Use one or two AC for MultiRole & another for Air-Defence. (e.g: F-86Sabres & F-104 StarFighter for Air Defence....+ Mirage-3 to do both).
Now we should keep F-16s for multirole, Rafale/Gripens/Mirage2000-5 for Air Defence & JF-17 for both.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Grippens are creeping closer and closer to the Eurofighter capabilities look at the future engine choices. TDL's using BAE's Link 16. BAE owns 35% of the firm. The voice Controlled cockpit (reminds me of eurofighter ) the TVC EJ200. This is now a serious Weapon Package. PLus you wouldn't have the problem where the US is restricting you on some EW systems based on intellectual property sanction (as stated by PAF ACM). The british can't provide you EF2000 with all the system since most of the EF2000 EW and avionics are similar to the Raptors and the JSF. Plus PAF can now go for the MBDA mica BVR Stuff.
Export Gripens will be Batch 3 standard aircraft. The British ASRAAM and Israeli Rafael Python 4 short-range heat-seeking AAMs, and the Rafael "Litening" targeting and navigation pod are being qualified for the Gripen to support export sales. The Thales "Vicon 70" reconnaissance pod will be qualified for export Gripens, though the Flygvapnet will use a pod being developed by Saab.
BAE Systems is working to integrate the NATO-standard "Link 16" datalink system with export Gripens, which is desired by potential customers though it isn't as capable as the TDLS datalink used by Flygvapnet Gripens.
* Features under development for future Gripens include:
An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.
Improved defensive countermeasures, including new towed decoys and missile and laser warning systems.
The "OTIS" infrared search and track (IRST) system now under development by Saab Dynamics and being tested on a Viggen. OTIS will provide multiple modes for both air to air and air to ground combat.
The Thales "Guardian" helmet-mounted display (HMT), now being evaluated on the Gripen for cueing the IRIS-T and other smart weapons.
The Gripen's digital architecture makes software upgrades straightforward, at least as such things go. Possible software improvements include new radar and datalink modes; a new terrain-referenced navigation system; and a fully autonomous precision landing-guidance system.
In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system.
The Flygvapnet is also contemplating the the use of the two-seat JAS-39B for missions such as command and control of strike packages or maritime operations; suppression of enemy air defenses; as a "mini-AWACS" platform; or as a controller for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
Capabilities
The Gripen is fitted with the "Tactical Information Datalink System (TIDLS)", which gives the fighter four high-bandwidth, two-way datalinks with a range of about 500 kilometers and very high resistance to jamming. The datalinks allow the Gripen to engage in combat using another aircraft's sensors or from targeting data provided by other defense systems. Data acquired from remote sources is fused and displayed on the fighter's main MFD. The link is fully operational when the aircraft is on the ground, allowing a pilot on standby to have high situational awareness of the battle environment.
One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions.
TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.
* The Gripen's built-in armament consists of a single Mauser BK-27 27 millimeter cannon, housed in a fairing on the aircraft's belly, offset to left to the rear of the engine intake. The aircraft's design philosophy dictated that it would generally carry guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness, given the aircraft's small size and limited warload. Possible external stores include:
Air to air missiles (AAMs). The primary AAM is the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, and the Gripen's PS-05A can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of AMRAAM, and Swedish AMRAAMs have minor modifications to their specifications.
Other possible AAM stores include the French Matra Mica; the British Aerospace Sky Flash, built in Sweden as the "Rb-71"; and the new Anglo-French MBDA ramjet-powered Meteor BVRAAM or German BGT IRIS-T AAM. IRIS-T is a short-range heat-seeking AAM with "off-boresight" capability. The Flygvapnet intends to obtain the IRIS-T to replace Swedish-built Sidewinders.
Antiship missiles, such as the SAAB RBS-15 turbojet-powered sea-skimming missile. A precision land attack version of the RBS-15 is now in development.
Air to surface missiles, such as the Raytheon AGM-65 Maverick, built in Sweden as the "Rb-75", as well as the "BK (BombKapsel) 90 Mjoelnir" guided gliding submunitions dispenser, also known as "DWS-39". The Mjoelnir was developed by Daimler-Benz Aerospace (now part of EADS), with the Gripen as the first intended flight platform. Of course, dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods have been qualified as well.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avgrpn.html
I got this from somewhere Else Mica is relatively a capable system that might be an option for PAF since its western (no objections on integrating it on F-16) and JF-17 will use it.
Grippens are creeping closer and closer to the Eurofighter capabilities look at the future engine choices. TDL's using BAE's Link 16. BAE owns 35% of the firm. The voice Controlled cockpit (reminds me of eurofighter ) the TVC EJ200. This is now a serious Weapon Package. PLus you wouldn't have the problem where the US is restricting you on some EW systems based on intellectual property sanction (as stated by PAF ACM). The british can't provide you EF2000 with all the system since most of the EF2000 EW and avionics are similar to the Raptors and the JSF. Plus PAF can now go for the MBDA mica BVR Stuff.
Export Gripens will be Batch 3 standard aircraft. The British ASRAAM and Israeli Rafael Python 4 short-range heat-seeking AAMs, and the Rafael "Litening" targeting and navigation pod are being qualified for the Gripen to support export sales. The Thales "Vicon 70" reconnaissance pod will be qualified for export Gripens, though the Flygvapnet will use a pod being developed by Saab.
BAE Systems is working to integrate the NATO-standard "Link 16" datalink system with export Gripens, which is desired by potential customers though it isn't as capable as the TDLS datalink used by Flygvapnet Gripens.
* Features under development for future Gripens include:
An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.
Improved defensive countermeasures, including new towed decoys and missile and laser warning systems.
The "OTIS" infrared search and track (IRST) system now under development by Saab Dynamics and being tested on a Viggen. OTIS will provide multiple modes for both air to air and air to ground combat.
The Thales "Guardian" helmet-mounted display (HMT), now being evaluated on the Gripen for cueing the IRIS-T and other smart weapons.
The Gripen's digital architecture makes software upgrades straightforward, at least as such things go. Possible software improvements include new radar and datalink modes; a new terrain-referenced navigation system; and a fully autonomous precision landing-guidance system.
In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system.
The Flygvapnet is also contemplating the the use of the two-seat JAS-39B for missions such as command and control of strike packages or maritime operations; suppression of enemy air defenses; as a "mini-AWACS" platform; or as a controller for unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs).
Capabilities
The Gripen is fitted with the "Tactical Information Datalink System (TIDLS)", which gives the fighter four high-bandwidth, two-way datalinks with a range of about 500 kilometers and very high resistance to jamming. The datalinks allow the Gripen to engage in combat using another aircraft's sensors or from targeting data provided by other defense systems. Data acquired from remote sources is fused and displayed on the fighter's main MFD. The link is fully operational when the aircraft is on the ground, allowing a pilot on standby to have high situational awareness of the battle environment.
One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions.
TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.
* The Gripen's built-in armament consists of a single Mauser BK-27 27 millimeter cannon, housed in a fairing on the aircraft's belly, offset to left to the rear of the engine intake. The aircraft's design philosophy dictated that it would generally carry guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness, given the aircraft's small size and limited warload. Possible external stores include:
Air to air missiles (AAMs). The primary AAM is the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, and the Gripen's PS-05A can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of AMRAAM, and Swedish AMRAAMs have minor modifications to their specifications.
Other possible AAM stores include the French Matra Mica; the British Aerospace Sky Flash, built in Sweden as the "Rb-71"; and the new Anglo-French MBDA ramjet-powered Meteor BVRAAM or German BGT IRIS-T AAM. IRIS-T is a short-range heat-seeking AAM with "off-boresight" capability. The Flygvapnet intends to obtain the IRIS-T to replace Swedish-built Sidewinders.
Antiship missiles, such as the SAAB RBS-15 turbojet-powered sea-skimming missile. A precision land attack version of the RBS-15 is now in development.
Air to surface missiles, such as the Raytheon AGM-65 Maverick, built in Sweden as the "Rb-75", as well as the "BK (BombKapsel) 90 Mjoelnir" guided gliding submunitions dispenser, also known as "DWS-39". The Mjoelnir was developed by Daimler-Benz Aerospace (now part of EADS), with the Gripen as the first intended flight platform. Of course, dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods have been qualified as well.
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avgrpn.html
I got this from somewhere Else Mica is relatively a capable system that might be an option for PAF since its western (no objections on integrating it on F-16) and JF-17 will use it.
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/displayimage.php?pid=3206&fullsize=1
Mica is a Weapon system listed for the JF-17, F-16 can be intigrated with Other Communication and weapon systems-based on Customer requirements.
Confused but Rather disturbed are you referring to me as a kid!! Lol..highsea said:
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/displayimage.php?pid=3206&fullsize=1
Mica is a Weapon system listed for the JF-17, F-16 can be intigrated with Other Communication and weapon systems-based on Customer requirements.
Last edited:
Prestidigitator
New Member
Re: PAF chief on F-16s and other ACs
Rafale's unit cost will be minimum of $75 million.mysterious said:
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
But you're still a "kid" to me.
I knew I was getting old when all the cops in my neighborhood started looking like kids....
Haha, no, I was referring to the author of that comparison. I believe you stated you got it from somewhere else, but you didn't say where.adsH said:
But you're still a "kid" to me.
I knew I was getting old when all the cops in my neighborhood started looking like kids....
mysterious
New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions
Close up pics of Gripens on the following link, though you may need to translate to english if you wish to 'read':
http://www.superfighter.hu/
Close up pics of Gripens on the following link, though you may need to translate to english if you wish to 'read':
http://www.superfighter.hu/