Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[adsH]

$ 2 billion for 18 New F-16 c/d option also means $110 mill/ACnfloorl:

it's an incremental purchase there eventually would be 36 F-16 c/d new builds, Having said that the 3 Billion dolar figure put fowrad excludes the 18 Option out fo the 36. I would assume the supporting equipment options would be paid for when the 18 option is exercised. I'm not sure how the deal would have been put through but this figure probably includes everything incurred total inductions cost ie training and the extra options ie spares personnel, i would assume this is where any manufacturer would make its cut.

 

[hovercraft]

The Pakistani Air Chief also said,
"We are also looking at other options in Europe and other countries."
I am thinking that PAF is trying to acquire Rafales, because they are in talks with France too.

Air Chief said Pakistan has recently concluded a contract with Sweden for purchase of airborne early warning system that is a big force multiplier. We have also signed a contract to train our staff to work on airborne refueler.

But no airborne refueler is present now, are they want to make saab-2000 aircraft as airborne refueler, or still looking for more options.

Air Chief also said,
"There is no such guarantee or assurance against sanctions but publicly and privately US assured Pakistan that there will be no sanctions in future."
He said Pakistan has given verbal assurance to USA about transfer of technology and is ready to sign the contract in this regard.
He added,
"We hope US will also adhere to its promise on delivery of F -16s and will not violate the conditions."

This is looking another reason of 3 billion for 36 F-16s and total 5 billion deal.

Quotes from,
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2006/18/index7.php

 

[ali.uaf]

$3 billion PAF upgradation plan unveiled
M RAFIQ GORAYA

ISLAMABAD (July 18 2006): The Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmad, has unfolded a three-year $3 billion up-gradation and modernisation programme of the Pakistan Air Force under which it would get 44 more hi-tech F-16s along with their supporting hardware, weapon system, avionics and back-ups.

He was addressing his maiden news conference at PAF Headquarters here on Monday after taking over command of the Pakistan Air Force in March 2006, and his recent visits to the United States and China for the purchase of hi-tech aircraft and other avionics.

Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said that in order to maintain a minimum credible deterrence in the region, Pakistan is buying 18 F-16s CNB model, block 52 along with very essential hardware and weapons at a cost of $2 billion from the United States.

Additionally, he said there is a requirement to upgrade and enhance the operational capability of the existing 34 F-16s, bought in 1982-83 to a level where they are supportable world-wide otherwise these aircraft would become obsolete operationally and difficult to retain logistically.

He said the US government has agreed to hand over 28 F-16s to Pakistan which were manufactured for Pakistan in 1990s and Pakistan had paid $650 million in advance for these planes, but the US had withheld their delivery imposing sanctions on Pakistan.

He said it was a great diplomatic victory for Pakistan that despite paying back the $650 million advance money, the United States has now agreed to give delivery of these 28 F-16s to PAF at a nominal price after up-gradation of their operational capability.

"Two of these F-16s have already arrived in Pakistan and the rest 26 will join the PAF fleet in about 15 to 18 months", he happily announced.

He said that up-gradation of the existing 32 F-16s and purchase of the 28 old but operationally upgraded aircraft would cost $1 billion, but they would be very effective "key punch" and front teeth of the PAF.
Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said: "These pieces of hardware are not available in the international market, they take time to produce, but when you sign the contract you only pay 5 to 10 percent of the total amount."

He said that 18 new F-16s will take three years to start getting manufactured and being delivered to PAF while the existing 34 F-16s may take 7 to 8 years or may be more for up-gradation and modernisation.

The Air chief said that normally Air Forces of other countries do not retain their aero planes for more than two and a half decades but the PAF is still retaining its three to four decades-old planes. "The Mirages that came in 1967 and 1974 are still the major part of PAF fleet and they shall continue to be on our inventory for a couple of more years", he added.

Speaking about purchase of new F-16s, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir said: "They are vastly different from the old ones; they are bigger in size, carry more fuel; have the ability to carry more weapons, their radars are totally different, their engines are totally new, their avionics are totally new, they have the full capability of fighting in a network centric warfare, they can reach far off distances, and combatible with any hi-tech aero plane in the world today."

The Air chief said: "We are also very much aware of the force multipliers such as air-borne early warning systems and have recently concluded a contract for the purchase of air-borne early warning and remote system.

"In a modest way, we have also signed a small contract to have other force multiplier the air-borne refueler, not only to get that capability but also to provide training to our air and ground crew in that particular regime", he added

He said: "The ratio of PAF to Indian Air Force (IAF) has traditionally been 1 to three, today we have 300 planes and they have over 900 planes.

"The numbers of IAF aircraft have never over-awed us or bothered us, it is the technological edge that we have enjoyed and it is the edge in the training and morale of the PAF personnel which we have always attained that have done us wonders in the past and that is our strength in future also", he emphasised.

He said: "The PAF is not dependent on one source of supply of weapons, we are diversified since the JF-17 aircraft that we are co-producing with the help of our Chinese friends, will be a major backbone of the Pakistan Air Force in future."

With regard to the possibility of US sanctions in future, the PAF chief said: "the environment has changed from the days of 1990s and the US administration talks clearly about the long-term strategic partnership with Pakistan, and I am sure they have also learnt from their experience in the past and will make no mistake in future."

He said: " The Pakistan Air Force is the only air force in the world which is engaged in the designing and manufacturing of the aircraft industry since we lack hi-tech industrial base in the country."

About carrying of nuclear war heads, the Air Chief said since it is a very sensitive area, we have never relied upon any particular aircraft, but our own indigenous capability and we shall continue to retain our indigenous capability, we don't need have this capability from anyone outside."


( well this article wud help to sort out the upcomeing deal )

 

[P.A.F]

$ 2 billion for 18 New F-16 c/d option also means $110 mill/ACnfloorl:

sorry didn't make it clear enough for you. i expected you to read the article and work it out that the additional f-16 come with weapons and hardware too!!!

 

[BilalK]

$ 2 billion for 18 New F-16 c/d option also means $110 mill/ACnfloorl:

Re-read the statement;

Pakistan is buying 18 F-16s CNB model, block 52 along with very essential hardware and weapons at a cost of $2 billion from the United States.

If you read the DSCA files, the weapons cost about 650mn USD, while the F-16C/Ds at 83mn USD will cost about 1.5bn USD; so no the deal has not changed. The current phase is valued at 3bn USD as it includes 18 new aircraft, 26 used aircraft, weapons and 11 MLU tape 3 or 4 kits. However the overall program will likely reach 5.1bn USD as the PAF will buy MLU kits for the remainder 49 F-16A/Bs and excersize the 18 C/D option.

IMO the PAF will likely expand the C/D fleet in the long run; I think we can expect 54 to 72 Block 50/52s and at least 60 F-16MLU3/4 by 2015.

The Pakistani Air Chief also said,
"We are also looking at other options in Europe and other countries."
I am thinking that PAF is trying to acquire Rafales, because they are in talks with France too.

Where and when did he say that PAF is looking at other options from Europe? If it is from Europe, then I'd expect Gripen or possibly Mirage 2000-5Mk2 at best; otherwise its J-10.

 

[TheDefender]

Re-read the statement;



Where and when did he say that PAF is looking at other options from Europe? If it is from Europe, then I'd expect Gripen or possibly Mirage 2000-5Mk2 at best; otherwise its J-10.

Pakistan was previously looking for another fighter from the Europe other then the F-16, now this J-10 came into the scene.And no one knows what is the status of that fighter from the europe.
Bilal there is no chance for the Mirage 2k because when ever anyone asks for the MK2 the french replace them with Rafale.So if Pakistn wants to buy a French fighter then it would be surely Rafale

 

[hovercraft]

Where and when did he say that PAF is looking at other options from Europe? If it is from Europe, then I'd expect Gripen or possibly Mirage 2000-5Mk2 at best; otherwise its J-10.

Read this,
About diversification, the Air Chief told that Pakistan had been going into co-production of JF -17 Thunder with China, as this would be the backbone of PAF. "We are also looking at other options in Europe and other countries."
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/july-2006/18/index7.php

Sweden already rejected to sale Gripens to Pakistan. Mirage 2000-5 MK2 or even 2000-9 is not suitable for PAF and also India too has these birds (Mirage 2000-5). Pakistan is showing interest in Rafales from many months or last few years, Rafales are cheaper and better then Eurofighter. And some units also commissioned. Eurofighter is still in research. And acquiring Rafales is more possible then Eurofighter.
Or which "other" fighter you are thinking for PAF? (Except Chinese J-10, also selected by PAF in near 40 Nos. , Gripen already rejected by Sweden)
is SU-37?

 

[swerve]

Rafales are cheaper and better then Eurofighter. And some units also commissioned. Eurofighter is still in research.

I suggest you do some checking.

Rafale may be cheaper than Eurofighter, but an unequivocal statement that it is better is insupportable. How exactly do you think it superior?

Why do you say Eurofighter is "still in research"? That's untrue. The UK, Germany & Italy all have operational Typhoon squadrons (I'm not sure about Spain). The first export Typhoons, for Austria, are being built.

I think the Rafale is a fine plane, which could serve Pakistan well (though I doubt Pakistan will buy it), but let's confine ourselves to the facts about it - and its rivals.

 

[swerve]

Bilal there is no chance for the Mirage 2k because when ever anyone asks for the MK2 the french replace them with Rafale.

Not true. The French are still happy to sell Mirage 2000s to anyone who wants them. But they don't have any orders to keep the line going when the few currently being built are finished, which will be very soon. So they told India that they won't keep the line open, doing nothing, costing money, waiting for the result of selection processes which had already taken years, & might take years more, & might end up in an order for MiG-35, or whatever. There weren't any other potential M2K customers negotiating when France said that, only India.

What the French are actually saying is if you want some, make up your mind quickly (very quickly!), or there won't be a production line to build them on & it'll be too late.

 

[BilalK]

Read this,
Sweden already rejected to sale Gripens to Pakistan. Mirage 2000-5 MK2 or even 2000-9 is not suitable for PAF and also India too has these birds (Mirage 2000-5). Pakistan is showing interest in Rafales from many months or last few years, Rafales are cheaper and better then Eurofighter. And some units also commissioned. Eurofighter is still in research. And acquiring Rafales is more possible then Eurofighter.

The Swedish Gov't rejected, but if Saab got a firm commitment from the PAF - then it could put some pressure/lobby for the sale to go through with Pakistan. Undoubtebly a deal with Pakistan would be large and the PAF would require Saab in the long-term to maintain these aircraft; and perhaps even expand the fleet. Read this article, its from Janes;

Gripen extends marketing horizons to Asia

Donna Richardson Jane's Aviation Reporter and Guy Anderson Jane's Defence Industry Editor
Linköping and London

Gripen International is seeking to continue its drive for growth in Eastern Europe and push into new markets in Asia as part of an "aggressive" strategy of "growth and internationalisation", according to Gripen International Senior Vice President Bob Kemp.

Bulgaria, Romania and the Slovak Republic, have been emphasised as potential export markets, along with Pakistan. Kemp also reiterated the company's interest in countries such as Brazil, Denmark, India, Norway, Switzerland and Thailand.

Speaking at Saab's headquarters in Linköping, Sweden, Kemp added that Gripen International - the export division of Saab charged with selling the JAS 39 Gripen on the international market - has also looked towards the European partners of the Lockheed Martin-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme.

Gripen has been exported to Hungary and South Africa and leased to the Czech Republic. A downturn in the Swedish market has impacted on Saab, however, which resulted in the loss of 146 jobs in January 2006 as production of the multirole fighter aircraft for the domestic market winds down.

Kemp said: "The decision to go international has resulted in sales of almost SEK6 billion [USD824 million]. [Total] Sales amount to 56 per cent outside Sweden."

He added that the Slovak Republic has a requirement for 15 new aircraft, with a view to replacing its MiG-29s by 2015 with a projected in-service date of 2009. Bulgaria has a requirement for 16 aircraft to replace its MiG-29 fleet in 2006. Sofia issued a request for information (RfI) to Saab in May.

Representatives of the Romanian Air Force visited the Czech Republic to see Gripen in action as Bucharest looks to modernise its armed forces in 2010, Kemp added.

In Switzerland, Gripen is competing against the JSF, Dassault Aviation's Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon to replace its F-5 fleet. The formal process starts later in 2006, Kemp added, for 24 aircraft.

Denmark completed an RfI in September 2005 to replace the F-16, and received a response from Gripen International in December 2005.

"They need to be operational within the next 10 years. The D/K Gripen variant is tailor-made to meet the operational requirements of the Danish Air Force; it last updated its force with the Draken so history may be repeating itself," he said.

Norway's RfI was issued in December 2005 to replace its F-16s and received a response from Gripen in March.

To date, export sales of Gripen have been repeatedly underpinned by offset arrangements.

Under the terms of the 2001 deal with Hungary, it was agreed that Gripen International would generate offsets worth 110 per cent of the original contract. So far, 70 per cent of the total obligation has been achieved.

The Czech Republic needs 14 Gripens with similar offset provisions. Saab announced in 2005 that the offset obligations to Prague totalled approximately EUR830 million (USD1 billion); around 130 per cent of the value of the lease agreement that was signed in June 2004.

 

[aaaditya]

Not true. The French are still happy to sell Mirage 2000s to anyone who wants them. But they don't have any orders to keep the line going when the few currently being built are finished, which will be very soon. So they told India that they won't keep the line open, doing nothing, costing money, waiting for the result of selection processes which had already taken years, & might take years more, & might end up in an order for MiG-35, or whatever. There weren't any other potential M2K customers negotiating when France said that, only India.

What the French are actually saying is if you want some, make up your mind quickly (very quickly!), or there won't be a production line to build them on & it'll be too late.

you are wrong there,the french have stopped production of the mirage2000 and its variants,mirage2000-5 was one of the favourites for the indian 126 aircraft mrca deal,but the french withdrew it from the deal.so expecting french to sell the mirage2000 series(new build) is hopeless,maybe a few second hand ones upgraded to mirage2000-5 series may be sold.

one reason why i would consider the rafale to be slightly superior to the ef2000 typhoon at the present stage is because ,rafale is currently available in true multirole form while the ef2000 is currently available only in air defence form,due to problems in its software,it also had integration problems with its 23mm mauser cannon(dont know if these have been solved or not).

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys seems pakistan is putting its fighters to good use(though it seems to be a bit of an overkill).

here check out this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5188830.stm

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys to add to the confusion here is another news on the f-16's.

here check out this link:


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1772457.cms

ISLAMABAD: Eighteen new F-16s that Pakistan hopes to get will cost $1-million a piece, which is less than what it paid for the first two the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has just acquired.

The News said that the US supplier has agreed to an easier payment schedule.

With the multi-role F-16s fleet, PAF will have a total strength of 78 aircrafts after the supply of 18 new and 26 used US Falcons in three years.

The Congressional approval and $ 3-billion Pakistan-US defence deal is all set to be finalised in the near future.

The News reported from Washington that the deal is to come up for consideration before the US Congress on Tuesday.

"There is no guarantee, but the US has given assurances to honour the new deal," Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed, said on Monday.

The PAF chief said the new aircraft would we used "to deter aggression", although Pakistan survived even in the days of US sanctions and hostile posture of neighbouring India and its continued build up for more than ten months during 2002.

The air chief, however, admitted that the disparity in aircrafts vis-a-vis India would remain one to three but the morale, training and manpower gave an edge to the PAF.

"The F-16s were the major force behind deterring aggression, as they were kept fully operational and available throughout the critical period," said Mehmood Ahmed, who took over command of the potent force early this year.

Mehmood Ahmed said that Pakistan wanted 18 new F-16 C/D Block 52 after scaling down the number from 55 aircraft, with an option of another 18 Falcons along with 26 old F-16s of A/B plus the weapons and other hardware.

This will cost Pakistan around $ 2-billion. However, he said another $ 1- billion will be spent on the upgradation of existing F-16 fleet of 32 aircraft plus two used aircraft that arrived in the recent past.

"The new F-16s will arrive in Pakistan within three years from the date of signing of the contract and 26 used F-16s will be handed over to us within 15 to 18 months," said the air chief.

Pakistan was originally offered 70 plus F-16s but the package was scaled down due to last October's earthquake and finally the negotiations resulted in agreeing to have 18 new (with 18 optional) and 26 vintage F-16s to be decommissioned before being handed over to Pakistan.

This combination is considered as "the best, given the present scenario and the available opportunity," the PAF chief said.

 

[hovercraft]

I suggest you do some checking.

Rafale may be cheaper than Eurofighter, but an unequivocal statement that it is better is insupportable. How exactly do you think it superior?

Why do you say Eurofighter is "still in research"? That's untrue. The UK, Germany & Italy all have operational Typhoon squadrons (I'm not sure about Spain). The first export Typhoons, for Austria, are being built.

I think the Rafale is a fine plane, which could serve Pakistan well (though I doubt Pakistan will buy it), but let's confine ourselves to the facts about it - and its rivals.

Eurofighter is good air to air fighter with air to ground strike abilities and more then 50 delivered, which I was forgetting. Because development of new AESA radar for Eurofighter, was in my mind. Eurofighter that are delivered, are fitted with CAPTOR (ECR 90) multi-mode X-band pulse Doppler radar.
Rafale is good air to air, air to ground and air to sea fighter and has low radar cross-section as compare to Eurofighter. Rafale air intake design is more aerodynamic and stealthier then Eurofighter intake design, and Rafale takes weapon load of 9500kg with 14 hard points and Eurofighter has 13 hard points and weapon load of _____kg.
Both planes are FBW but Rafale’s flying and attack management system is new and easy. With a slightly cheaper price Rafale is more suitable for PAF, if PAF wants and France agrees. But not enough cheaper fully equipped Rafale is about 100million+ us dollars.:fly

 

[pshamim]

hey guys seems pakistan is putting its fighters to good use(though it seems to be a bit of an overkill).

here check out this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5188830.stm

Yes they should! specially when the terrorists are getting a lot of help from India and its proxies in Afghanistan to create trouble in Pakistan.

 

[Archer]

Yes they should! specially when the terrorists are getting a lot of help from India and its proxies in Afghanistan to create trouble in Pakistan.

And what help is that?

Look to your own problems please- the rampant Islamic extremism and the proliferating madrassas, before pointing fingers at others for your own problems in facing the aspirations of the Baloch people or the FATA regions.

 

[BilalK]

And what help is that?

Look to your own problems please- the rampant Islamic extremism and the proliferating madrassas, before pointing fingers at others for your own problems in facing the aspirations of the Baloch people or the FATA regions.

Indian consulates funding, arming and training BLA terrorists; fact that India openly supports BLA - a declared terrorist organization by U.K. No one minds Baluch nationalist rallies; but we do mind it if armed militants are mindlessely destroying civilian infrastructure.

BTW, if you do not know; compared to carpet factories or hard labour, poor parents think highly of Madrassahs. So the whole Madrassah issue is a loy more complex than you make it out to be. Unless the Americans want to provide Pakistan the same amount of aid they provided to Israel or Egypt, I'm afraid the Madrassah issue will be extremely hard to solve.

 

[hovercraft]

Out of topic discussion, every one stay on topic plz. And Aaaditya why you posted irritating out of reality or badly shaped post, even you are very old member of DT.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Admin:

Post closed whilst under review by Mods.

Some of you are well aware of the rules about getting into Political debate. Irrespective of any personal feelings you may have it is encumbent on you all to remember the Forums rules.

This post will be frozen until further notice and review by Web

 

[webmaster]

Thanks Gary.

hey guys seems pakistan is putting its fighters to good use(though it seems to be a bit of an overkill).

here check out this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/5188830.stm

India has been using its Air Force in Occupied Kashmir for past 50 years, don't you think thats bit overkill too? Of course, we don't want to look at that... my comments though as political as yours are meant to remind you that this problem or issue exists on your side as well and trying to comment on it in PAF thread only gives Pakistanis and those who see both sides of an issue excuse to comment on India's actions. So, please avoid political commentary and issues in military and defense related threads.

Post below was posted by pshamim was posted in response to comments quoted above:

Yes they should! specially when the terrorists are getting a lot of help from India and its proxies in Afghanistan to create trouble in Pakistan.

India may or may not be helping terrorists groups inside pakistan, anybody can comment based on speculation. It does have close ties with Northern Alliance of Afghanistan who are known to have carried out attacks inside Pakistan and may very well be working with terrorist elements in Balochistan... but all that is too political and open to debate and should not be discussed in Pakistan Air Force thread. So, we want to avoid that as well in the future.

Then we had spat of other comments in this chain, including this one:

And what help is that?

Look to your own problems please- the rampant Islamic extremism and the proliferating madrassas, before pointing fingers at others for your own problems in facing the aspirations of the Baloch people or the FATA regions.

Islamic extremism maybe rampant in Pakistan according to you but Hindu extremism is pretty much part of the Indian government and is institutionalized to the point that elected officials take part in ethnic killings. Of course, we don't want to discuss that or the fact that Indian government has blamed every single incident in the country on Pakistan, we also don't want to look at that or ask for evidence or for proof but as soon as some Pakistani speculates - our cage is rattled (even though Pakistan hardly blames terrorists acts inside Pakistan on India 5 minutes after they happen.)!!!

Do you see what I am trying to say here? Both, India and Pakistan have their problems. Each one tries to cut the other whenever they get a chance. We must learn to see both sides of the problem and come up with fair and logical conclusion. The blame game needs to end in order for peace to prevail otherwise you guys will continue to kill each other for centuries to come.

Now that we have all that cleared up, I would like everyone to get back to and continue to discuss Pakistan Air force News and Discussions.

There will be absolutely NO commentary on what I just wrote and what I quoted.

PLEASE CONTINUE WITH THE TOPIC!