Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[mysterious]

WASHINGTON: The F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan wouldn’t have nuclear warhead carrying capability and the United States would monitor to avoid leakage of the technology to China or any other country, John Hillen, assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, told a Congressional hearing here.

He told the U.S. House of Representatives International Relations Committee that concerns about leakage of technology from Pakistan were being addressed by "an extraordinary security plan" imposed on the planes and components and accepted by Pakistan's Air Force.

"This sale will send a very clear signal of our commitment to a long-term relationship with Pakistan," Hillen told the committee. "We want to build this relationship precisely to help them get better at combating terrorism, Hillen later added.

Deputy Secretary of State Richard Boucher has hoped that the Congress will approve the F-16 fighter jets deal.

Despite the assurances and safeguards some congressmen expressed reservations about the deal. Lawmakers expressed concerns that the fighter jets' sophisticated technology could fall into the wrong hands.

Sorry but I do not know the link to this piece as it was sent to me by a friend. Quite worrying this development I'd say.

 

[pshamim]

It is true. PaF F-16 will not be nuclear capable. Pakistan had already informed the US that it did not want this capability to start with, sensing that it might come up in the congress. Also Pakistan does not need the capability as it believes that it has better nuclear carriers in its ballistic and the cruise missiles. Pakistan was also able to minitiarize its nuclear weapons which the missile can carry and be fired by the artillary as well.

 

[kams]

I read it too. here's a link
http://andhravision.com/daily/22july3.htm
by the way it's an indian source so i'll leave it for u to make a judgement.

The news report you have quotted talks about Nuclear capability only...nothing about stripping of any other key technology.

Here is cpl of links (Not Indian... )

Dawn

pakistan link

All news sources quote John Hillen saying "an extraordinary security plan" imposed on the planes and components and accepted by Pakistan's Air Force...whatever that means..

 

[aaaditya]

Normally,the PAF is not inclined twords a twin jet.
Logistics.
The J-10 can pretty much do what the F-18 can,(probably much more).
The Rafale is much superior to the F-18, but it is costly,and it would require a totaly new, expensive set-up.

the j-10 may be able to match earlier versions of f-18(f18a/b),but i dont think it will come anywhere near the f18e/f.

the an-apg-79 radar of the super hornet is an aesa and is considered to be pretty hi-tech it is capable of tracking and providing targetting solutions against cruise missiles at standoff ranges.

however its biggest advantage is that it has synthetic aperture radar capabilities,inverse synthetic radar capabilities with a resolution equal to or better than 1m,it can detect and classify warships and can also detect submarines by the wake created by their periscopes.

 

[pshamim]

How about the APG-68(V)9 radar on new PAF F-16s. It is considered to have the SAR capability with a 2-foot point target response. Is that true?

 

[webmaster]

How about the APG-68(V)9 radar on new PAF F-16s. It is considered to have the SAR capability with a 2-foot point target response. Is that true?

Here is something from [SIZE=-1]northropgrumman.com[/SIZE]:

AN/APG-68(V)9 Significantly Enhances the Aircraft’s Combat Capability

The F-16, the choice of 24 countries, remains the world’s most sought-after fighter. More than 4,000 aircraft have been delivered, and hundreds more are currently on order for seven foreign nations. Production is expected to continue beyond 2010. Major upgrades are being incorporated into all versions to keep the fleet modern and supportable over the aircraft’s long service life.

Latest Variant Represents a Substantial Leap
Northrop Grumman has been supplying the fire control radar for the F-16 since it first rolled off the Lockheed Martin production line in 1976. Changes incorporated into the (V)9 variant are considered more significant than all previous upgrades to the APG-68 combined, and substantially improve the aircraft’s performance in both air-to-air and air-to-ground operations.

High-Resolution Ground-Mapping for All-Weather Precision Strike
The new high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode provides a significant improvement (2-foot resolution) to the ground-mapping capability of the F-16 and offers the pilot 24-hour, all-weather precision strike. Besides the SAR, the (V)9 offers a 33 percent gain in air-to-air detection range plus improved tracking performance, system growth potential, and supportability. Application of advanced processing techniques enhances the radar’s ability to operate in dense electromagnetic environments and resist jamming.

In the Situation Awareness mode (Search While Track), the (V)9 can track four targets as compared to its predecessor’s two. It provides a larger search volume and improved tracking performance in Track While Scan mode.

COTS Technology Boosts Computer Capacity, Reliability
The new radar takes advantage of current commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) technology, both in hardware and software, providing a fivefold increase in processing speed and a tenfold gain in memory compared to the previous APG-68 production version. In addition to these enhancements, the capacity of the new processors provides large growth potential, and other (V)9 advances are expected to provide a 50 percent increase in radar reliability, to nearly 400 hours mean time between failures.

Retrofit Flexibility Allows Commonality Throughout Fleet
An upgrade retrofit kit is available that brings earlier APG-68 versions up to the (V)9 standard. Technicians can install it on the flight line in approximately two days, and it fits in existing radar compartments. The kit includes a new modular receiver/exciter, common radar processor, modified dual-mode transmitter, modified antenna, and interface software that adapts to computers on Block 20 through Block 50 aircraft.


And from Defense-Update.com:

The Israeli Soufa F-16I, and Hellenic F-16 Block 52s are equipped with the latest version of Northrop Grumman APG-68 radar, the (V)9 multimode fire control radar that offers improved detection range and resolution. Only the Block 60 aircraft, destined for the UAE, are to be equipped with a more advanced version – the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar. Initially, the Israelis favored the local Elta EL/M-2032 fire control radar originally developed for the IAI Lavi, but encountered financial and political obstacles. The IAF decided to use an improved model of the F-16 radar, and was involved in the specifications definition phase of the new version. It was later been selected by most of the latest acquisitions – by Poland and Greece. The new version uses new, Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) technology that provided faster processors that provide increased throughput, with x5 faster processing speed and x10 growth in memory capacity over the current version. With the powerful processing capability, the new system has a high resistance to electromagnetic interference and countermeasures and future growth potential. The system offers new and improved capabilities in both air/air and air/ground modes, primarily in the operation at long range (BVR) and target rich airspace. The APG-68(V)9 offers 30 percent increase in detection range, improved search-while-track mode (four vs. two tracked targets) and larger search volume and improved track while scan performance. Its single target track performance has also been improved.

On air/ground missions, the new radar becomes an effective sensor, utilizing its high-resolution synthetic aperture radar mode, which allows the pilot to locate and recognize tactical ground targets from considerable distances. Although previous radars had some Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) capabilities, the new version generates imagery-class (2 feet resolution) high resolutions pictures, comparable to pictures delivered by the most modern commercial satellites. These pictures can be acquired from very long range, at all weather conditions and provide an effective, real-time source for the targeting of long range, precision guided weapons. The radar also has increased detection range in sea surveillance mode, and enhanced ground moving target identification and mappinc capability. The radar features an inertial measurement unit that improves dynamic tracking performance and provides an auto-boresight capability, which increases accuracy

.

 

[pshamim]

Here is something from [SIZE=-1]northropgrumman.com[/SIZE]:

High-Resolution Ground-Mapping for All-Weather Precision Strike
The new high-resolution synthetic aperture radar (SAR) mode provides a significant improvement (2-foot resolution) to the ground-mapping capability of the F-16 and offers the pilot 24-hour, all-weather precision strike. Besides the SAR, the (V)9 offers a 33 percent gain in air-to-air detection range plus improved tracking performance, system growth potential, and supportability. Application of advanced processing techniques enhances the radar’s ability to operate in dense electromagnetic environments and resist jamming.

Thanks WebMaster. So it does confirm that the new F-16s as well as the MLUed will have the SAR capability.

 

[tphuang]

Why?
The F7PG is less than 4 years in service !
The PAF has been currently spending 100s of millions of US$ upgrading the Mirages. What is the point of this, unless they are to be kept in service.

The F-7Ps have been in service for much longer. Besides, you are not replacing them right away, but slowly replacing them. You would expect the F-7PGs to be gone by 2020 and that's when I personally expect PAF to be fully 4th generation.

 

[ali.uaf]

[Admin Edit: This is not a CHAT room. Learn to WRITE properly if you are going to post comments otherwise don't bother. Next time if your replies have more slang words than actual words it will be deleted, despite of what article or information it contains! Read the rules here: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php especially the one on writing properly! "dis iz n0t a jk! ]


US rejects objections to nuclear, F-16 deals
By Anwar Iqbal
WASHINGTON, July 18: President George Bush’s concept of ‘de-hyphenation’ plays a pivotal role in the new US approach towards South Asia. The Bush administration defines this ‘de-hyphenation’ as separating its relations with India from its ties with Pakistan and dealing with each country individually.

At a recent briefing on US policies for South and Central Asian regions, Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher explained this ‘de-hyphenation’ with practical examples. He strongly rejected India’s objections to a $5 billion arms package the United States is offering to Pakistan and Islamabad’s objections to a nuclear deal Washington is offering to New Delhi, making it clear that it will not allow one to influence its relations with the other.

“Our sale is based on what we think are legitimate needs of Pakistan, defensive purposes,” said Mr Boucher when asked to comment on India’s objections to the F-16 offer. “And we proceed on that basis, not on the basis of what other people think or don’t think about it,” he added.

Mr Boucher was equally forthright in rejecting the suggestion that Pakistan should get a similar nuclear deal that Washington is offering to New Delhi.

“I have not seen any proposal … to make a similar sale to another country along the lines of the one with India,” he said. “We certainly believe that the situation with India is unique. That’s the way we’ve approached this agreement, that’s the way we’ve pursued it.”

In the current US strategy for South and Central Asia, Pakistan continues to be a key ally in the war against terror. “No country has done more to fight Al Qaeda or has lost more people in doing so than Pakistan,” Mr Boucher declared.

Pakistan is also an essential part of a trade corridor that the US desires to see emerging, a corridor that could link three strategically important regions, Central and South Asia and the Middle East.

In his briefing, Mr Boucher mentioned at least two US-supported projects that seek to link Central Asia with South Asia.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/19/top3.htm

 

[webmaster]

Ali.uaf, read the BLUE text in your last reply.

Others, make sure your reply and comments are ON TOPIC and about Pakistani Air Force News and Discussion rather than poverty and AIDS in india or how many congressmen is Indian lobby cooking. None of that off topic crap will be tolerated and will be deleted no matter how good your reply.

I've cleaned up the last page of this thread... lets get back to the topic. If we can't stop masturbating on India vs Pakistan issue, I suggest you go somewhere else. As this thread is strictly about? Pakistan Air Force News and Discussions!

 

[shujaatK]

The F-7Ps have been in service for much longer. Besides, you are not replacing them right away, but slowly replacing them. You would expect the F-7PGs to be gone by 2020 and that's when I personally expect PAF to be fully 4th generation.

Agree about the F-7Ps, but is the PAF rich enough to ground an aircraft ( F7PG ) within 20 years of its purchase? Do you think 25 or 30 years would be more realistic?

Chao!

 

[P.A.F]

never seen such a great looking C-130 from the PAF. Picture from airliners.net

 

[kams]

never seen such a great looking C-130 from the PAF. Picture from airliners.net

P.A.F, that aircraft won an award too. See the story linked below. Its really nice to see PAF acknowledge help they got from all nations and I was thrilled to see indian flag too. Nice going PAF.

Rapid Global Effect

 

[ali.uaf]

Air Vice Marshall Latif said that the JF-17 was designed to fit any of the 3 engines:

1. M-53-2
2. F-404
3. RD-93


I forsee the PAF going to the French route (M-53-2), eventually. The RD-93 provides us with a quick solution to get our planes flying and in the air. The JF-17 project can ill afford any delays (hence the expected use of Chinese radars on the initial batches of JF-17's).

Here are few more options guyz what u think of it ??????????

RB-199

The RB-199 may be a good option but would need modification as its thrust falls bellow the RD-93 slightly. However, being a modular design & capable of modification, a derivative can be made to fit into the JF-17. Since Rolls Royce is the prime contractor then British approval to sell the type to Pakistan (whcih as been selling Spey turbofans for China's JH-7A 'Flying Leopard) make the RB-119 a very strong candidate for Pakistan & China alike as a replacement for the RD-93. In addition, it would be cheaper to purchase than other more modern types yet offer sufficiently reliable performance. With the arms embargo on China likely to be lifted, it's probable that the type would be provided.

EJ-200

Perhaps a little too sophisticated, the engine designed for the Eurofighter/Typhoon is one of the most powerful out there yet incredibly small & uses 1/3 fewer parts than the RB-199 & reduced fuel consumption, greater reliability & higher life expectancy. However, it is much more expensive & approval from EADS could be a complex procedure. In addition, allowing a derivative to pass to China may be subject to harsh scruitney

M-53-2

Good candidate, (especially if the Mirage 2000-5 was purchased to go with it) it would result in inter-fleet commonality. Given its age & the fact that like the RB-199 it isn't considered state-of-the-art anymore the chances of a licence build & enhanced derivatives seems tempting. However, it is slightly large & shrinking the engine may prove to be a challenge for the French to deliver on time.

M-88-3

Like the EJ-200 it is sophisticated & ultra-modern but may not be approved as it represents cutting edge technology for the French. May be considered if the Rafale was bought in good numbers but is unlikely that the French will seriously allow it to be sold to China which may result in production problems with the JF-17.

WS-13A

Main candidate, details unknown but it's expected to be the Chinese answer to the Russian embargo. However, it may take longer than two or three years. It's sophistication & performance are open to question.

 

[tphuang]

Air Vice Marshall Latif said that the JF-17 was designed to fit any of the 3 engines:

1. M-53-2
2. F-404
3. RD-93


I forsee the PAF going to the French route (M-53-2), eventually. The RD-93 provides us with a quick solution to get our planes flying and in the air. The JF-17 project can ill afford any delays (hence the expected use of Chinese radars on the initial batches of JF-17's).

Here are few more options guyz what u think of it ??????????

RB-199

The RB-199 may be a good option but would need modification as its thrust falls bellow the RD-93 slightly. However, being a modular design & capable of modification, a derivative can be made to fit into the JF-17. Since Rolls Royce is the prime contractor then British approval to sell the type to Pakistan (whcih as been selling Spey turbofans for China's JH-7A 'Flying Leopard) make the RB-119 a very strong candidate for Pakistan & China alike as a replacement for the RD-93. In addition, it would be cheaper to purchase than other more modern types yet offer sufficiently reliable performance. With the arms embargo on China likely to be lifted, it's probable that the type would be provided.

EJ-200

Perhaps a little too sophisticated, the engine designed for the Eurofighter/Typhoon is one of the most powerful out there yet incredibly small & uses 1/3 fewer parts than the RB-199 & reduced fuel consumption, greater reliability & higher life expectancy. However, it is much more expensive & approval from EADS could be a complex procedure. In addition, allowing a derivative to pass to China may be subject to harsh scruitney

M-53-2

Good candidate, (especially if the Mirage 2000-5 was purchased to go with it) it would result in inter-fleet commonality. Given its age & the fact that like the RB-199 it isn't considered state-of-the-art anymore the chances of a licence build & enhanced derivatives seems tempting. However, it is slightly large & shrinking the engine may prove to be a challenge for the French to deliver on time.

M-88-3

Like the EJ-200 it is sophisticated & ultra-modern but may not be approved as it represents cutting edge technology for the French. May be considered if the Rafale was bought in good numbers but is unlikely that the French will seriously allow it to be sold to China which may result in production problems with the JF-17.

WS-13A

Main candidate, details unknown but it's expected to be the Chinese answer to the Russian embargo. However, it may take longer than two or three years. It's sophistication & performance are open to question.

huh? It was designed for RD-93 and engines that have similar dimension to RD-33.

M-53 dimensions, check http://www.deagel.com/pandora/m53-p2_de00230001.aspx
RD-33 dimensions, check
http://www.klimov.ru/en/products/military/turboprop_engines/rd-33/

How can it possibly fit M-53? Plus, you are adding another 500 kg of weight.

 

[ali.uaf]

huh? It was designed for RD-93 and engines that have similar dimension to RD-33.

M-53 dimensions, check http://www.deagel.com/pandora/m53-p2_de00230001.aspx
RD-33 dimensions, check
http://www.klimov.ru/en/products/military/turboprop_engines/rd-33/

How can it possibly fit M-53? Plus, you are adding another 500 kg of weight.

Probablyy you are rit ...but there was sum disscussion going on sum forum dat wt if Russia denies China for RD-93 engines for JF-17 dan what options China/PAK ......

 

[SABRE]

Probablyy you are rit ...but there was sum disscussion going on sum forum dat wt if Russia denies China for RD-93 engines for JF-17 dan what options China/PAK ......

ali.uaf; it doesnt matter what discussions are going on other forums. Discussions wont put any engine onf JF-17. AFAIK there are only two (Known) options. One is RD-93 [will be used on early batch - already in Chinese/CAC stock] 2nd is WS-13 [Under development - Chinese version of RD-93].

As for AVM's claim that XYZ engines can fit on JF-17, well he is an AVM - airforce/aircraft expert. He knows what he is saying, but the thing is "did he say it". I certainly did not come across any such news/report/interview.

 

[nuke_em]

ali.uaf; it doesnt matter what discussions are going on other forums. Discussions wont put any engine onf JF-17. AFAIK there are only two (Known) options. One is RD-93 [will be used on early batch - already in Chinese/CAC stock] 2nd is WS-13 [Under development - Chinese version of RD-93].

As for AVM's claim that XYZ engines can fit on JF-17, well he is an AVM - airforce/aircraft expert. He knows what he is saying, but the thing is "did he say it". I certainly did not come across any such news/report/interview.

sorry off topic but i just wanted to remind u about ur signature its offensive atleast to me because ur callingworld's largest democracy the world's largest hypocracy and i think u know what the world's largest democracy is. well i dont think ur in a position to say so because pakistan is a military dictatorship fftopic

 

[SABRE]

sorry off topic but i just wanted to remind u about ur signature its offensive atleast to me because ur callingworld's largest democracy the world's largest hypocracy and i think u know what the world's largest democracy is. well i dont think ur in a position to say so because pakistan is a military dictatorship fftopic

You could have PMed me .. I decline to answer it here.

Plus; I have my freedom of speech (a gift from democracy)

 

[shujaatK]

the j-10 may be able to match earlier versions of f-18(f18a/b),but i dont think it will come anywhere near the f18e/f.

the an-apg-79 radar of the super hornet is an aesa and is considered to be pretty hi-tech it is capable of tracking and providing targetting solutions against cruise missiles at standoff ranges.

however its biggest advantage is that it has synthetic aperture radar capabilities,inverse synthetic radar capabilities with a resolution equal to or better than 1m,it can detect and classify warships and can also detect submarines by the wake created by their periscopes.

Do not underestamate the J10A. With the WS-10A or the B (with thrust vector) and canards, it will be one of the most agile aircraft. It is a Mach 2+ aircraft that can pull 9Gs. It can climb at 60,000 FPM.
The Super Hornet was designed for significantly increased carrier suitability, with grater range and payload and an extended radius of 40%, depending upon mission profile.
However it remains a Mach 1.8, 7.5 G aircraft, and no match for the J-10 A (or the expected "C") in a dog-fight. It cimbs at around 50,000 FPM.
The F-18 can carry 12 AIM-120, for BVR, which it will fire in a ripple pattern, but the PAF can ill afford to do so.The JHMCS + AIM-9X combination makes an average pilot into an Ace (the J-10 also has a HMS).
The J-10s radar, under development, should be as good.