Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[BilalK]

Nothing on this by my source. And I wont place my bet on PakDef members, although some of them seem to have good sources and knowledge.

On the other hand if the 1st ERIEYE has been mounted and the whole aircraft+radar-system is ready than that 1st system would be sent to Pakistan. If its true, it would be on the news with in due time.

Kaleem Sadaat said to Janes that PAF has signed the Erieye deal thought to include 7 aircraft.

PAKISTAN - PLUGGING THE GAPS

Robert Karniol JDW's Asia-Pacific Editor
Bangkok

Air force

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) lost an average of nine aircraft annually through attrition over the period 2000-03, but this has halved over the past two years. "We enhanced our flying," explained Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, the chief of air staff. While acting as PAF chief of operations ACM Kaleem launched an initiative to reduce losses due to pilot error. He spoke to Jane's shortly before his retirement on 20 March, when Air Marshal Tanveer Ahmad Khan assumed the top post.

"In 2000, our flying per pilot was in the region of nine hours per month. We have progressively taken this up to 15 hours, or 15 sorties," he said, adding that the figure has now stabilised.

This expansion of flying hours is paralleled by increasingly complex exercises. These include the introduction of surface effects in dissimilar air combat training exercises and intensified operations. The latter saw one air base generate 175 sorties in a day during a trial, for example, while the PAF as a whole flew 8,000 sorties of various types in a month during the September 2005 Exercise 'High Mark'.

Another core development is the PAF's rewrite of its basic doctrine, which dated back to 1988.

"We tried to amplify the characteristics of air power for our sister services," said ACM Kaleem, noting that this also outlines force goals and new missions. The doctrine was released in April 2005 and a revised edition has just been completed following input from the army and navy.

The focus in combat aircraft is on preparing for the introduction of the JF-17 (FC-1 Super-7) attack fighter: a collaborative programme with China involving 150 platforms. This will become the PAF's mainstay fighter as older models are phased out, with delivery of four aircraft from the first small batch production due in March 2007.

Russian sources have told Jane's that the RD-93 engine powering the Chinese model will not be re-exported to Pakistan, but ACM Kaleem says that Beijing has provided solid assurances otherwise.

Three prototypes now undergoing evaluation are fitted with a Chinese radar, probably the NRIET KLJ-10, and this will outfit the Pakistani fighter if it performs as required.

Beyond this, ACM Kaleem says there is an outstanding requirement for 35-50 additional advanced fighters. Plans to acquire more Lockheed Martin F-16s were suspended due to the October 2005 earthquake that devastated Pakistan. This could delay any deal by at least two to three years. The air chief is concerned that both circumstances and requirements may have changed by then, necessitating new negotiations and still further delays, and he suggests that Islamabad may end up turning again to China.

This could also impinge on plans to obtain the Joint Direct Attack Munition, which has been requested from the US.

The PAF has meanwhile finalised a contract for Italy's Galileo Falco medium-altitude endurance tactical UAV, with delivery due in December. Four systems are involved and these will supplement an indigenous UAV already deployed but requiring further development.

ACM Kaleem says tactical and strategic-lift assets are currently sufficient. Strategic-lift assets have been supplemented by six Lockheed Martin C-130 Hercules transport aircraft to bolster the 10 currently operational. The first of these arrives in March and all will be delivered before 2007. Twelve C-130s should then be upgraded to C-130H standard, including a glass cockpit, with the remainder placed in storage.

The PAF is also upgrading its air-defence network, including indigenous development of a multiradar tracker and graphic user interface. The service has also acquired several new radar systems from China, including the YLC-2 long-range 3-D phased-array surveillance system and previously unknown YLC-6 low-level system. Six of 10 YLC-6 radars on order have so far been delivered and Pakistan is also gaining six US-made AN/TPS-77 tactical mobile radars for medium-level application.

ACM Kaleem says that Pakistan has also finalised a contract with Sweden for the Saab-Ericsson airborne early warning and control aircraft, thought to involve seven platforms. This has the Ericsson Microwave Systems Erieye airborne radar mounted on a Saab 2000 turboprop aircraft.

Talks are now under way to replace the Thales Defence Systems Crotale low-altitude surface-to-air missile (SAM) system, with the current inventory including 11 acquisition units and 23 firing units.

Discussion involves acquiring the MBDA Spada 2000 low- to medium-altitude SAM system, which offers both tactical and strategic mobility that includes air-transportability by C-130 Hercules. A contract could be finalised before the current financial year ends in June.

"When US sanctions were imposed in 1990 both the PAF and the Indian Air Force were second-generation air forces. No real-time surveillance capability, no air-to-air refuelling capability, no airborne early warning capability, no beyond-visual-range capability, no stand-off weapon capability. However, after 13 years of sanctions India had all of the above and Pakistan had none until beginning three or four years ago. This is the gap," said ACM Kaleem. "We have to bridge this gap in a manner that we can deny the advantages that our neighbour has in these domains so that we are able to defend ourselves effectively."

 

[WAR]

PAF at cutting edge of defence capability: VCOAS

The URL is:
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2006-daily/31-03-2006/national/n10.htm



PAF at cutting edge of defence capability: VCOAS

Pays tribute to four women pilots inducted into PAF

RISALPUR: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is at the cutting edge of the country’s defence capability and has always lived up to the nation’s aspirations.

Vice Chief of Army Staff Gen Ahsan Saleem Hayat said this while addressing as the chief guest the passing-out parade of the 116th General Duty (GD) Pilot Course here on Thursday.

The unique feature of the parade was the induction of the first-ever batch of four female pilots - Saba Khanam, Nadia Gul, Mariam Khalil and Saira Batool - out of a total of 36 aviation cadets into the air force.

Gen Ahsan expressed delight at the passing out of the first batch of the four lady pilots in the history of the PAF and commended the efforts of the PAF Academy to impart quality training to them.

He also praised the passion, professional competence and endurance of the lady pilots. He said the PAF took lead in the induction of women into the armed forces.

"Pakistani women have immense potential and can achieve distinctions in any field," Gen Ahsan commented. "You are a symbol of pride for the nation," he said, speaking of the four women pilots.

Gen Ahsan hailed the women officers as a tribute to the air force’s elite training academy in the town of Risalpur. He said the four had "shown the spirit and courage to rise above the ordinary and break new ground for others to emulate".

"If Pakistan is to rise to the height that it deserves ... both men and women of our beloved land must find equal space and opportunity," he added.

Carrying rifles and dressed in the same blue uniform as their male colleagues -except for a Kameez (tunic) flapping over their navy blue trousers - they paraded before hundreds of family members and diplomats and took the military oath. "Today I have earned the wings that I have strived for and I am proud," Mariam Khalil said after the ceremony.

Standing in front of a T-37 training jet, Batool described her training as tough but "very thrilling".

"My parents, their prayers and my instructors and above all, Allah Almighty, helped me achieve this success," said Batool.

The four women trained in MFI-17 Super Mushfhak and T-37 jets and, depending on their abilities and the needs of the air Force, could go on to fly fighter jets.

About five per cent of Pakistan’s air force officers are women, mostly serving in areas like engineering, medicine, air traffic control and administration.

Referring to the male officers, Gen Ahsan said as PAF pilots the responsibility of defending the aerial frontiers of the country will now rest on their shoulders and no sacrifice can be too great to defend the honour and sovereignty of Pakistan.

Earlier, the chief guest reviewed the parade and awarded badges to the graduating cadets and trophies and swords of honour to outstanding performers. He also awarded the Quaid-i-Azam Banner to No. 4 Squadron for being the champion squadron. The trophy for best performance in general service training was awarded to cadet Taimoor Khan Jadoon.

Female cadet Nadia Gul was awarded with the Asghar Hussain Trophy for best performance in academics, while the Chief of Air Staff Trophy for best performance in flying was given to Iraj Jamal.

The graduation ceremony ended with a display of immaculate and thrilling aerobatics by the flyers of Karakoram-8 (K-8 Academy Hawks) and T-37 aircraft (Sher Dils). The spectators greatly appreciated the skills and mastery of PAF aviators.

===========

A begining of a new era in the history of PAF.

An extension of President Musharraf's theory of Enlightened Moderation.

I hope that this would be followed by other Air Forces, especially of Muslim countries, where gender bias and discrimination needs to be checked by socially motivated individuals and groups.

I congratulate all four women graduates, and wish them all the best in their future endeavours.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I hope that this would be followed by other Air Forces, especially of Muslim countries, where gender bias and discrimination needs to be checked by socially motivated individuals and groups.

It's more common than you think. eg the RAAF has had flying female squadron leaders for over 25 years, they've had female AP-3C pilots for over 20 years - and we have flying suqadron leaders driving F-111's for over 15 years as well.

I think you'll find that most of the senior NATO partners have had op flying female pilots for some years as well.

It's good to see Pakistan setting an example of gender opportunity though for religiously like minded nations though..

 

[ajaybhutani]

are they gonna fly fighter jet or transport planes/helicopters?

 

[Scorpius]

fighter aircraft.

 

[ajaybhutani]

that sounds great..

 

[gf0012-aust]

Gentle Reminder.​

Please avoid posting one liner comments (as much as humanly possible).

It doesn't look too good and can end up degrading the quality of responses within a thread.

 

[ajaybhutani]

Gentle Reminder.​

Please avoid posting one liner comments (as much as humanly possible).

It doesn't look too good and can end up degrading the quality of responses within a thread.

i'll take care of it from next time onwards.

 

[BilalK]

They still have a way to go - right now they've been commissioned as Second Lieutenent and have passed the basic and intermediate jet training course on T-37s. Now they will fighter-conversion on FT-5/FT-6. After all that - and if they do very well - then they go on towards fighters.

 

[arshy]

war trophy

SURRENDERED AND LANDED AT PASRUR ON 3rd SEPTEMBER, 1965

On 3 September, 1965 two F104s, flown by Flt Lt Hakimullah and Flg Off Abbas Mirza, were scrambled from Sargodha to intercept four Indian Gnats. During the ensuing combat, one Gnat, which had strayed away from its main formation, being unable to combat the F-104s, surrendered and force-landed at an abandoned airfield at Pasrur near Sialkot. Flt Lt Hakimullah circled overhead until the capture of the aircraft and the pilot was assured by Pakistani troops. The pilot of the captured Gnat was Sqn Ldr Brij Pal Singh, who later rose to be an Air Marshal in the IAF. This aircraft was then ferried from Pasroor to Sargodha by Flt Lt Saad Hatmi.

Gnat is a single seat fighter manufactured by a British company Folland Aircraft in 1955.

It was also manufactured in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. This agile fighter was inducted in Indian Air Force in 1959. It had one Rolls Royce engine (Orpheus 701) with a thrust of 4520 lbs. It could climb to a height of 50,000 feet.

It had two 30mm built in cannons. Gnat could carry two 500 lbs bombs or eighteen 3 inches rockets under its wings.

Admin: Arshy, I realise that this is your first post, so have allowed some slack. But, you need to read the forum rules about what constitutes an acceptable post

War stories like this serve only to generate anger and flack from the other side involved. It adds no benefit to the discussion in general and certainly lacks qualification of relevance in this topic.

When you add articles you are also required to

- add the appropriate link

- add your own comments and ensure that they link to the topic title.

Please edit this post within the next 24hrs. After this time has elapsed, an available Mod will edit instead.

Edit:Umair. One more thing, this thread is basically(rather exclusively) for discussion relating to current PAF news and events. Posts like these belong in military history, but since you are a newbie I'm allowing this one. Next time post in theappropriate forums.
P.S And any reply to this post will be nuked. Ignore it and continue with the discussion.

 

[SABRE]

arshy;

in addition to what gf has just said, this topic has been discussed for a millionth time now. Discussed the Topic, discussed the war of 65 and started a new war here and signed a ceasefire. All done on this topic. So its no use posting it now, besides its PAF news thread. We discuss the lates developments and technological details.

 

[kursed]

I suppose Pakistan has now officially decided to go for the Jiang-10 since the news is confirmed by a Defence Secretary. I hope this will go a long way in filling the technological gaps in PAF's inventory.

For Mod:
Thank you for pointing that out, I'll take care of it in the future.

Pakistan may buy US, Chinese and Soviet planes

By Muhammad Saleh Zaafir
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has decided to purchase state-of-the-art Chinese F-10 (Jian-10) multi-role fighter-cum-bomber planes while the decision pertaining to purchase of US made ultra modern F-16 planes would be made in July next.

Meanwhile Moscow has signalled to Pakistan that like the US, it could also de-hyphenate its ties with Pakistan and India. As a result of this change in thinking, Pakistan could also go for Russian made planes for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF).

The first batch of high-profile JF/Thunder-17 aircraft jointly being manufactured by Pakistan and China will be ready for induction early next year, ahead of the schedule. These planes would be flying in the same year in the skies of Pakistan and China as part of their respective air forces. Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mahmood Ahmad Chief of the Air Staff will visit China shortly to inspect the project. It will be his first foreign trip as the Air Chief.

Highly placed defence production sources revealed to The News here the other day that Federal Secretary for Defence Production Lt Gen Ali Jan Orakzaie who had gone to China last month has now returned to Islamabad after an extremely fruitful visit. He was tasked by President Musharraf with exploring the possibilities of acquiring the high-tech planes and other weaponry systems for the three services preferably with transfer of technology basis.

During his visit to China in February this year, President General Pervez Musharraf was shown the F-10 (also called as J-10 or Jian-10) considered to be the Chinese most secret flying machine. He was the first foreign dignitary/head of the state who chanced to see the demonstration of the multi-role fighter. It is the part of Chinese fourth generation fighter programme which sent waves of worry in India. Indian sources used to say that the programme had the collaboration of Pakistan, Israel, Russia, France and Italy. The rumour based Indian speculation was never owned or denied by the Chinese who love to maintain their peculiar style. The Indians used to say that Israeli input was visible on design while electronics and weapon technology had the mark of French assistance. The F-10 also has the similarities with Israel's Lavi fighter, but predominantly it has the edge like Russian Sukhoi Su-30 MK multi-role aircraft that has in some aspects outsmarted the US made F-16. Russians have supplied 100 such planes to China recently for induction in Peoples Chinese Air Force (PCAF).

Sources indicated that F-10 are the aircraft of the new century and they have recently been rolled out. No one knows the number and positioning of the planes as Chinese kept the secret close to their chest till now considering it as their secret weapon. With an understanding about provision of the planes to Pakistan, Beijing has unveiled it since the plane in question would fly for the first time out of the air frontiers of China. The Chinese engineers and scientists are still working to improve it further. Pakistan has decided to buy in first stance two squadrons of these planes. The mode of supply and price would be worked out through the system both the countries have. Secretary defence production has confirmed Pakistan's intention of buying the J-10 aircraft.

In another related development Pakistan has planned to buy US made F-16 in less number and in all likelihood the number would be cut to half of what Islamabad had initially planned to purchase. Pakistan had made up its mind to buy 55 brand new F-16, but now the number which Pakistan is expected to ask is 25 while 30 used planes will be bought from sources that the United States will identify. The second-hand planes will be later upgraded by the Americans and they could be provided by the US Air Force (USAF) or from any third country, the sources added.

F-16 are considered to be a passion of the PAF since they were the first high-tech flying machines that were inducted in its fleet. Pakistan had made up its mind to buy 75 new F-16 last year. The matter was at its final stage and the required legislation was about to be tabled in the US Congress for facilitation of the supply, but the devastating earthquake of October 8 last year forced Pakistan to request shelving the plan for the time being and Pakistan requested the US to keep the matter pending.

Meanwhile Pakistan is also eying the Russian defence production market. When President General Pervez Musharaf visited Moscow in February 2003, the Russians offered to Pakistan choppers but the deal could not materialize for certain reasons and now Islamabad has received positive signals from Moscow that could encourage it to buy some Russian planes. The Russian technology is very close to that being used by the Chinese and it would not be a difficult proposition for Pakistan to maintain such a system if Russians agree to supply Pakistan, the sources hinted. The Russian defence products are comparatively cheaper than the Western products.

Sources said that Islamabad and Moscow have started making contacts to initiate cooperation in the field of defence in some way. The Russians stakes are high in the case of defence supplies for the Indians but ever since New Delhi has opted to go in Washington's orbit in a big way, Moscow is considering Pakistan's request favourably, the sources added.

A visit of Ali Muhammad Jan Orakzaie to Washington in July next is on the cards.

The Joint Defence Consultative Group (JDCP) of Pakistan and the United States has been convened in early May in Washington. Federal Defence Secretary Lt Gen Tariq Waseem Ghazi will lead Pakistan's delegation in the JDCP while the host country's delegation will be led by Eric S Edelman under secretary of defence (Policy) of the United States. The group had its meeting in Pakistan early last year and it is expected that the May meeting of the group will take stock of Pakistan's needs especially for its efforts to eliminate terrorists from its soil. The lists pertaining to Pakistan's requirements in this regard are being finalized, the sources said. The ministry of defence production will be represented in the JDCP by its additional secretary.

source: Jang

 

[webmaster]

Kursed, Thanks for the article and welcome to DefenceTalk.

Please remember that YOUR comments/thoughts are REQUIRED when you post an article. Please, try to post your input along with the article next time.

Enjoy!

 

[tphuang]

I suppose Pakistan has now officially decided to go for the Jiang-10 since the news is confirmed by a Defence Secretary. I hope this will go a long way in filling the technological gaps in PAF's inventory.

For Mod:
Thank you for pointing that out, I'll take care of it in the future.


source: Jang

It sorted of confirmed my suspicion all along that PAF is reducing F-16s to buy more J-10s. If you look at the reduction in new block 50s and the order number for J-10, it looks to be comparable.

Even so, it really gets me nervous reading this article. The writer sounded like he had no clue what he is talking about.

 

[BilalK]

Two full squadrons of J-10s would require roughly 30-40 aircraft in PAF; so you are correct regarding the PAF reducing its F-16 order and buying J-10s instead. The final number will still come up to 55 to 75 aircraft - forming roughly 4 squadrons. But there would be no point in buying 24 or 36 new-built aircraft if you do not plan to expand the fleet to a healthy number - it would financially expensive and unfeasible. So either the PAF cuts out the F-16 deal completely or stacks up its order to 55 to 75 before the production lines in Lockheed close.

 

[SABRE]

The requirement for Pakistan is to establish a diverse airforce. This has been the concept since the begining. PAF bought US F-86Sabres, F-104 Starfighters and in addition bought French Mirage-3 and 5 in 1950s and 1960s. In 70s PAF bought more Mirage-3 and 5 and inducted Chinese F-6.

Now the idea is to have aircrafts that can carry mixed weapon system. E.g. An Aircraft that can carry American and European missiles togather or European and Chinese weapons. In addition PAF also wants aircrafts with mixed avionics. This can not be achieved with American fighters. However; with JF-17 Pakistan and even J-10 PAF can achieve that. If not American PAF can go for Chinese and European mix weapons and avionics on J-10 and JF-17. But American quality is also very very importent. For that F-16s would offcourse be purchased. Whats amazing is that Pakistan is still looking into European 4th gen fighters like Rafale, Ef-2000 and Gripen. If deal with Europeans over these fighters go through there is a chance that purchase of new F-16 could be dumped and only free 2nd hand F-16s could be opted.

 

[SABRE]

In addition to my above post;

There is another thing that comes with J-10 and that is security. Any political change in Pakistan or in China is unlikely to effect the J-10 sale and purchase. This security is not promissed by US.

 

[tphuang]

In addition to my above post;

There is another thing that comes with J-10 and that is security. Any political change in Pakistan or in China is unlikely to effect the J-10 sale and purchase. This security is not promissed by US.

alright, just make sure if you want to add to a previous post, edit it. There is no point creating 3 consecutive posts like that.

Actually, it would've made more sense for PAF just to continue purchasing F-16 here. They already have pilots trained with F-16. They already have infrastructure for F-16. They also seemed to have this love for F-16, since it's the first decent fighter they ever got. Now, they got to go through the entire process again with J-10. What it appears to me is that PAF is only purchasing enough F-16 to use up their defensive fund from the Americans.

As for Gripen, it's clear that J-10 has beaten out Gripen in this competition. PAF said for the longest time that it was deciding between Gripen and J-10 for that plus one fighter. You have to remember that PAF got Erieye, so it would've made more sense for them to buy Gripen. As for Rafale and Typhoon, that won't come anytime soon. I get sick of reading these Pakistani discrimination of Chinese stuff. If J-10 doesn't compare well against some of these Western fighters, Musharraf and PAF wouldn't spend their time praising it and purchasing it.

 

[hovercraft]

Wednesday, April 05, 2006
Russian planes in review: Pakistan buying Chinese F-10 fighter aircraft
Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Pakistan has decided to buy state-of-the-art Chinese F-10 multi-role fighter-cum-bomber planes, while it will make a decision in July regarding the purchase of US-made F-16s, reports the Gulf Times.

The first batch of JF Thunder-17 aircraft being jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China are expected to be ready for induction into the Pakistan Air Force ahead of schedule early next year. PAF chief Air Chief Marshal Tanveer Mahmood Ahmad will visit China shortly to inspect the project. It will be his first foreign trip as air chief. According to sources in defence production, Defence Production Secretary Lt Gen Ali Jan Orakzai, who visited China last month, had an “extremely fruitful” visit.

Orakzai was tasked by President Gen Pervez Musharraf with exploring the possibilities of acquiring the high-tech planes and other weapons systems, preferably on a technology transfer basis. During his visit to China in February this year, Gen Musharraf became the first foreign dignitary to see a demonstration of the F-10 (also called J-10 or Jian-10) multi-role fighter, which the Chinese had hitherto been very secretive about.

The F-10 has similarities with Israel’s Lavi fighter, but it is more akin to the Russian Sukhoi Su-30 MK multi-role aircraft that has in some aspects outpaced the F-16. Russia recently supplied 100 Su-30s to China. Pakistan plans to initially buy two squadrons of these planes. Orakzai has confirmed Pakistan’s intention to buy the F-10 aircraft.

In a related development, Gulf News reports, Pakistan now plans to buy fewer than half of the new F-16s that it originally intended to buy. Islamabad had indicated it wanted 55 new F-16s, but is now expected to ask for 25 new planes and 30 used planes.

Pakistan is also reported to be eyeing the Russian defence production market. Russia offered to sell helicopters to Pakistan when Gen Musharraf visited Moscow in February 2003, but the deal did not materialise.

Now Islamabad has received positive signals from Moscow regarding the sale of Russian planes, said the sources. Russian technology is very similar to that being used by the Chinese so would not be a problem for Pakistan, the sources said.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\04\05\story_5-4-2006_pg1_5

 

[hawa-ka-sipahi]

Finally a decision is made !calling it F-10P......instead of F-7P!!!

i dont think Pak will be willing to bye F-16C/D as they can handle the current
situation with there MRAAM (H-2 ,H-4)and SRAAM,(atleast)till the induction of J-10s and JF-17s,the J-10 can outperform F-16s in some aspects ,equivalent to Sukhoi-30!. the JF-17 80% capable of the F-16 A
one of the most manoverable fighter in the world(in close combat) armed with medium range weopons watch out, extremely lethal! ........than wts the use of F-16C/Ds when ToT is available for more advance F-10s(I know its the time problem),well no matter,

Sino-Pk friendship zindabad !