From what I heard it was basically a universal approval to all of PAF's acquisition plans including F-16, JF-17 and apparently F-10 (APP quoted Shiekh Rashid). That is very interesting, because it is the first time the Defence Ministry had approved something the PAF did not formally negotiate for.pshamim said:
Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions
- Thread starter P.A.F
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What I meant was that this is the first time the Defence Ministry publically approved something which has been under the tables; i.e PAF not officially/publically/formally negotiating for something. It is possible that the PAF had negotiated with China and managed to get the price and induction time of the F-10.
Formal approval has been issued by the Federal Cabinet under the President General Perwaiz Musharaf and Prime Minister S.Aziz for the purchase of F-16C/D from US and F-10 from China. Although the number was not decided for both fighters, the mood was to buy 40+ J-10/F-10 and 50 to 60 F-16. Defence and Strategic officials were pushing more for F-16s and their numbers may increase slowly.
The report in Business Recorder is very close to the information I got yesterday from some of my sources: What is really intriguing is purchase of J-10s. Numbers also seem to be correct. They may not exactly be what we expected but at the moment look adequate. These are the minimum numbers which may increase in future:
Pakistan to buy 98 hi-tech aircraft from US and China
ISLAMABAD (April 13 2006): Pakistan will purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment is being purchased from USA and China are as under:
FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500).
The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Programme (AFFDP-2019), the document says. The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft.
The government would also help PAF in securing long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.
While elaborating the background, Defence Ministry said that PAF gave a presentation to the President and Prime Minister on the state of present fighter fleet and its various hi-tech aircraft options on March 31, 2006.
At present, PAF's combat fleet consists of around 350 aircraft. The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.
Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. The induction of JF-17 has been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.
Regarding hi-tech capability, PAF has seriously lagged over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements.
The requirement of multi-role aircraft with effective and modern operational capabilities, supportability, maintainability and other factors were thoroughly evaluated during the trials of available hi-tech options. In this regard, three aircraft namely, Chinese FC-20, USF-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen were evaluated.
While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the leading frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century.
Further, due to the high cost of Grippen, the F-16 weapon system, along with air-to-air BVR missiles was considered to be the most suitable option to immediately address the critical capability deficit that PAF has accumulated vis-à-vis IAF.
The document suggests that the President had directed the Defence Ministry to move a summary for the Cabinet directing the Ministries of Defence and Foreign Affairs to adopt proactive approach to influence the United States and Chinese Governments for the release of the requisite package.
http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=409827&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=
Pakistan to buy 98 hi-tech aircraft from US and China
ISLAMABAD (April 13 2006): Pakistan will purchase 98 hi-tech aircraft from the United States and China besides missiles and other equipment to improve the capabilities of Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
According to an official document, exclusively obtained by Business Recorder, mixed package of hi-tech aircraft and equipment is being purchased from USA and China are as under:
FC-20 aircraft (36), SD-10 BVR missiles (300), F-16 A/B, ex-Pakistan (26), F-16 C/D (18 with an option for 18 more), BVR, 500(American), targeting pods 18 and joint direct attack munitions (500).
The expenditure on the entire package would be met from PAF share in Armed Forces Development Programme (AFFDP-2019), the document says. The Cabinet, according to the document, has allowed PAF to set up Joint Working Group (JWG) with CATIC for procurement of 36 FC-20 aircraft.
The government would also help PAF in securing long-term credit financing for the FC-20 aircraft from Chinese government, besides allowing PAF to initiate a Letter of Request (LoR) for the F-16 package and equipment through the Defence Ministry.
While elaborating the background, Defence Ministry said that PAF gave a presentation to the President and Prime Minister on the state of present fighter fleet and its various hi-tech aircraft options on March 31, 2006.
At present, PAF's combat fleet consists of around 350 aircraft. The bulk of its inventory comprises old Mirages and Chinese-origin A-5, FT-6 and F-7 aircraft. With the exception of F-7 PGs, most of these aircraft are more than 20 years old and are scheduled to retire between 2008 and 2015.
Foreseeing this retirement schedule and the known difficulties associated with replacing all old aircraft with western equipment, PAF embarked upon the co-development of JF-17 aircraft. The induction of JF-17 has been planned so as to have a systematic replacement of the retired fleet.
Regarding hi-tech capability, PAF has seriously lagged over the years, mainly due to various geo-political and economic constraints. In order to redress this capability deficit, PAF has very carefully evaluated the hi-tech options against well-defined air staff requirements.
The requirement of multi-role aircraft with effective and modern operational capabilities, supportability, maintainability and other factors were thoroughly evaluated during the trials of available hi-tech options. In this regard, three aircraft namely, Chinese FC-20, USF-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen were evaluated.
While the US F-16 C/D and Swedish Grippen qualified against the PAF requirements, the Chinese FC-20, in its present state, lagged behind due to the lack of advanced avionics systems and weapons. For the future, however, PAF termed it as a good option with very promising growth potential to become one of the leading frontline fighters to face the challenges of the 21st century.
Further, due to the high cost of Grippen, the F-16 weapon system, along with air-to-air BVR missiles was considered to be the most suitable option to immediately address the critical capability deficit that PAF has accumulated vis-à-vis IAF.
The document suggests that the President had directed the Defence Ministry to move a summary for the Cabinet directing the Ministries of Defence and Foreign Affairs to adopt proactive approach to influence the United States and Chinese Governments for the release of the requisite package.
http://www.brecorder.com/index.php?id=409827&currPageNo=1&query=&search=&term=&supDate=
pshamim;pshamim said:
would u trust a media which doesnt even knw the proper name of the aircraft. They turned J-10/F-10 to FC-20 and yesterday Geo was calling it FC-10. :el
I did some asking. The number started from 80 and went over 100 in the meeting. Its in 105 to 110, which may just fall to 100. New F-16 are 20+. They debate caught up and President asked the concerned parties to resolve the number issue them selves. Thats why the info minister said number is not decided yet. They have slowed down the purchase of the new F-16s rather than reducing the number. Initialy it was 50 new and now they have broke it up in parts. 20+ now and 20+ later (depending on scenerio).
You may very well be right. My sources have indicated that these are the minimum number that Pakistan will be ordering. But after some more dicussions, these numbers may remain the same or adjusted upward. Word "MAY" was repeated several times. But one thing, as I mentioned earlier, is certain that these numbers represents the minimum requirement.SABRE said:
And do not discount or laugh at the new designation FC-20 for J-10s. Use caution-It may very well be true. I do not know the reasons as to why the J-10 in Pak inventory will be called FC-20
Its Sheikh Rashid who has turned J-10 to FC-20. Since u have mentioned "Caution" I think Pakistan might realy be inducting it as FC-20. F-10 perhaps feels inferior specially since India is interested in F-18. Objective is to install good western avionics on J-10 which may bring its avionics capability equal or more to F-18. S.Rashid has habbits of making huge mistakes when taking names of technical objects but may be this time its no mistake. Seems similar action as JF-17. Pakistan refusing to accept the designation "J-9/F-9 and Super-7" cause of the inferior feeling to the name.pshamim said:
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #949
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-F16_13bus.ART.State.Edition2.1882753a.html
Pakistan will buy 77 F-16 jets
[SIZE=+1]Deal will prolong life of Lockheed's production line in FW
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]12:00 AM CDT on Thursday, April 13, 2006
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]By RICHARD WHITTLE / The Dallas Morning News [/SIZE]
WASHINGTON – Pakistan's Cabinet decided Wednesday to go ahead with a purchase of F-16 fighter jets that President Pervez Musharraf had delayed last year after a devastating earthquake.
The decision to buy 77 planes was announced by Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Dow Jones Newswires reported from Islamabad.
The purchase, worth roughly $3 billion, should extend the life of Lockheed Martin Corp.'s Fort Worth production line beyond the end of 2009, when it would shut down without further sales.
Precisely how long the sale keeps the line open will depend on how many of the planes are new and how many are upgrades of used aircraft.
About 4,000 people work on the F-16 in Fort Worth, producing about 60 planes a year, company spokesman Joseph Stout said.
"Our goal now is to continue the line until the Joint Strike Fighter gets into full production, which will be sometime in 2012," Mr. Stout said, referring to a new single-engine stealth fighter being built for U.S. and allied forces.
The U.S. Air Force took delivery of its last F-16 last year, so the company is depending on foreign sales to extend production.
The Bush administration offered F-16s to Pakistan and India last year, reversing a U.S. policy that had denied such weapons to the often-bitter nuclear rivals, who have fought three wars.
The administration also has offered Boeing F-18s to India. President Bush recently signed a controversial civilian nuclear cooperation deal with India, but New Delhi has yet to say whether it will buy U.S. aircraft.
__________________________________________________________
77 seems to be a healthy number.
Pakistan will buy 77 F-16 jets
[SIZE=+1]Deal will prolong life of Lockheed's production line in FW
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]12:00 AM CDT on Thursday, April 13, 2006
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]By RICHARD WHITTLE / The Dallas Morning News [/SIZE]
WASHINGTON – Pakistan's Cabinet decided Wednesday to go ahead with a purchase of F-16 fighter jets that President Pervez Musharraf had delayed last year after a devastating earthquake.
The decision to buy 77 planes was announced by Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed, Dow Jones Newswires reported from Islamabad.
The purchase, worth roughly $3 billion, should extend the life of Lockheed Martin Corp.'s Fort Worth production line beyond the end of 2009, when it would shut down without further sales.
Precisely how long the sale keeps the line open will depend on how many of the planes are new and how many are upgrades of used aircraft.
About 4,000 people work on the F-16 in Fort Worth, producing about 60 planes a year, company spokesman Joseph Stout said.
"Our goal now is to continue the line until the Joint Strike Fighter gets into full production, which will be sometime in 2012," Mr. Stout said, referring to a new single-engine stealth fighter being built for U.S. and allied forces.
The U.S. Air Force took delivery of its last F-16 last year, so the company is depending on foreign sales to extend production.
The Bush administration offered F-16s to Pakistan and India last year, reversing a U.S. policy that had denied such weapons to the often-bitter nuclear rivals, who have fought three wars.
The administration also has offered Boeing F-18s to India. President Bush recently signed a controversial civilian nuclear cooperation deal with India, but New Delhi has yet to say whether it will buy U.S. aircraft.
__________________________________________________________
77 seems to be a healthy number.
The number of F-16s has not bee informed. According to information minister it has not been decided, but the press release by LockHeed-Martin states that 77 F-16s with 50 New ones are still on. Offcourse Lockheed-Martin might have given the press release after the discussion with PDM and P-NCA.SATAN said:
But the purchase of F-16s is being a broken up in batchs. The 1st batch is of 18 new F-16s which my be increased to 36 (With 18 more). So the 1st batch is of either 18 new F-16s or 36 new F-16s or may fall between them. This is where the media is being confused.
Offcourse dnt just take it from me. Different ppl tell me different thing. Wait for the official announcement of Press Release by Pakistan foreign office at weekend.
In the end - no matter how small the numbers, it ensures the PAF has infrastructure for the Block-52 and J-10. So if it ever were to expand the J-10 and F-16 fleets - it could do so without having to build new infrastructure and simultaneously get the aircraft for a lower-unit price.
Actualy PAC will now not only require expension but also new plants. They have been asking for a new branch in Karachi, but for some reason govt just puts them back. Due to lack of expanded facility PAC refused to K-8 in the past. All the free facilities were occupied by JF-17 plant and C-130 over hauling facility.BilalK said:
I think its time to free PAC from govt, military and the AirForce and let it opperate as separate company as 50% govt and 50 pvt.
not really. The MLUed F-16s can be pretty good too in terms of avionics and such. The F-16 A/B are more manuverable than C/D. If they are given the same radar+avionics+weapons, there is no reason to say that they won't be as affective. However, they do not have the multirole capability or the payload of C/D. Since the original A/B that PAF ordered hasn't really being used, so they haven't had the wear and tear of the other MLUed F-16s. They should still have a healthy extension to them.SATAN said:
Either way, from some of the other articles I've read recently, it seems like C/D order would be no more than 30 at least for this first order. It seems like J-10 took quite a big bite out of F-16 block 50+ orders.
News of 18+18 F-16 is confirmed. That is the firm number accroding to someone whi is deeply involved with the acquisition.
He also said that number of J-10s ala FC-10 will ultimately increase. Number of future options are being discussed between the 2 Governments.
Re: FC-20...Wrong designation and should be disregarded.
He also said that number of J-10s ala FC-10 will ultimately increase. Number of future options are being discussed between the 2 Governments.
Re: FC-20...Wrong designation and should be disregarded.
Is it true that all of PAC's engineers, scientists, technicians and mechanics are PAF personnel?SABRE said:
I think it is likely that PAF will execute its option for 18 additional aircraft - bringing the F-16 Block-52 order to 36; I believe 18 is too small a number for PAF's immediate requirements.
Yes...most of them are PAF personal. Others may not have been trained in PAF facility but are appointed as PAF's employee.BilalK said:
I dnt think rushing into F-16 is good idea. Pakistan seems to being cautious. It is for sure next govt is of democrats. Even though democrats have now established good relations with Pakistan but their history of imposing arms embargo on Pakistan is alerting. May be 18 to 36 will be ordered now and if demos offer good relations number will be increased.
Fighting Falcon
New Member
Pakistan seeks US helicopters to combat terrorism
Sunday April 16, 07:37 PM
By Xinhua
Islamabad, April 16 (Xinhua) Pakistan has urged the US to provide an air squadron comprising 10 helicopters
and two planes for its interior ministry, the Geo TV reported Sunday.
Interior Ministry Crisis Management Cell's director general Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema said the US would be
training staff of the law enforcing agencies in Pakistan for rooting out terrorism.
He added that the US was all praise for Pakistan's initiatives against terrorism.
Cheema returned home on Saturday after attending a meeting of the Pakistan-US joint working group set up for
combating terrorism in Washington.
He said the development projects in tribal areas, law and order situation, police reforms, automated
fingerprints, identification system besides other related matters came under discussion during the meeting.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/060416/43/63kgm.html
-------------------
Wow! all this defence spending? The helicopters are likely to be Scout attack helicopters. I say this because i remember that on Janes 2006, Pakistan was looking for scout helicopters capable of recon and attack. Recon was needed for co-ordinating the AH-1S's to attack at a certain point where terrorists set up camps, and training facilities. They wanted these so it could scan the borders without any terrorists to hop the fences (a role similar to that of what the Black hawk of the USAF is doing along the Mexican border). About the 2 aircrafts,i dont have a clue.
Sunday April 16, 07:37 PM
By Xinhua
Islamabad, April 16 (Xinhua) Pakistan has urged the US to provide an air squadron comprising 10 helicopters
and two planes for its interior ministry, the Geo TV reported Sunday.
Interior Ministry Crisis Management Cell's director general Brigadier Javed Iqbal Cheema said the US would be
training staff of the law enforcing agencies in Pakistan for rooting out terrorism.
He added that the US was all praise for Pakistan's initiatives against terrorism.
Cheema returned home on Saturday after attending a meeting of the Pakistan-US joint working group set up for
combating terrorism in Washington.
He said the development projects in tribal areas, law and order situation, police reforms, automated
fingerprints, identification system besides other related matters came under discussion during the meeting.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/060416/43/63kgm.html
-------------------
Wow! all this defence spending? The helicopters are likely to be Scout attack helicopters. I say this because i remember that on Janes 2006, Pakistan was looking for scout helicopters capable of recon and attack. Recon was needed for co-ordinating the AH-1S's to attack at a certain point where terrorists set up camps, and training facilities. They wanted these so it could scan the borders without any terrorists to hop the fences (a role similar to that of what the Black hawk of the USAF is doing along the Mexican border). About the 2 aircrafts,i dont have a clue.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #960
Talking of defence spending, check this out
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/7de4f6b6-cda0-11da-afcd-0000779e2340.html
Pakistan to discuss Chinese defence purchases
Pakistan will discuss the purchase of advanced defence supplies from China when President Pervez Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, prime minister, visit Beijing later this year, senior Pakistani officials said.
The revelation closely followed last week’s announcement that Pakistan would buy an unspecified number of sophisticated J-10 fighter jets, also known as F-10s, from China and provided further evidence of the two countries consolidating an already close relationship.
Analysts believe that Pakistan, an important US ally in the fight against terrorism, is concerned about what it considers to be a fast-growing nuclear alliance between neighbouring India and the US and is looking to China as the main source of its crucial defence supplies.
Pakistan was looking to China for military deals even more than before, said Talat Masood, a respected commentator on defence affairs in Islamabad. Unlike the US, there was no question of sanctions from China, he said.
There have also been reports that Pakistan is seeking more nuclear power reactors from Beijing beyond the two already committed by China. After last month’s visit to Pakistan by US president George W. Bush, Pakistan’s leaders have also urged Washington to supply the country with civil nuclear reactors, just as the US has promised India.
The J-10s are the most sophisticated military purchases by Pakistan from China in four decades.
Western diplomats said Pakistan was believed to be seeking 35-40 of the fighter jets in a deal worth at least $1.5bn (€1.2bn, £857m). This is in addition to plans for the purchase of 150 JF-17 fighter jets being produced jointly by Pakistan and China, valued by analysts at $2.2bn-$2.5bn.
Pakistan also said last week it would buy up to 77 F-16 fighter jets from the US. The US last year lifted restrictions on the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, 15 years after suspending a deal in 1990 for the sale of 71 of them on the grounds that Pakistan was producing nuclear weapons.
“Pakistan’s view on relations with the US and China is revealed from how these two deals were announced simultaneously,” said a Pakistani government official. “If the US in future once again blocks deliveries for one reason or another, the pipeline from China would continue. Trust, trust and trust has always been the guiding principle for our two countries.”
______________________________________________________________
:smash
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/7de4f6b6-cda0-11da-afcd-0000779e2340.html
Pakistan to discuss Chinese defence purchases
Pakistan will discuss the purchase of advanced defence supplies from China when President Pervez Musharraf and Shaukat Aziz, prime minister, visit Beijing later this year, senior Pakistani officials said.
The revelation closely followed last week’s announcement that Pakistan would buy an unspecified number of sophisticated J-10 fighter jets, also known as F-10s, from China and provided further evidence of the two countries consolidating an already close relationship.
Analysts believe that Pakistan, an important US ally in the fight against terrorism, is concerned about what it considers to be a fast-growing nuclear alliance between neighbouring India and the US and is looking to China as the main source of its crucial defence supplies.
Pakistan was looking to China for military deals even more than before, said Talat Masood, a respected commentator on defence affairs in Islamabad. Unlike the US, there was no question of sanctions from China, he said.
There have also been reports that Pakistan is seeking more nuclear power reactors from Beijing beyond the two already committed by China. After last month’s visit to Pakistan by US president George W. Bush, Pakistan’s leaders have also urged Washington to supply the country with civil nuclear reactors, just as the US has promised India.
The J-10s are the most sophisticated military purchases by Pakistan from China in four decades.
Western diplomats said Pakistan was believed to be seeking 35-40 of the fighter jets in a deal worth at least $1.5bn (€1.2bn, £857m). This is in addition to plans for the purchase of 150 JF-17 fighter jets being produced jointly by Pakistan and China, valued by analysts at $2.2bn-$2.5bn.
Pakistan also said last week it would buy up to 77 F-16 fighter jets from the US. The US last year lifted restrictions on the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, 15 years after suspending a deal in 1990 for the sale of 71 of them on the grounds that Pakistan was producing nuclear weapons.
“Pakistan’s view on relations with the US and China is revealed from how these two deals were announced simultaneously,” said a Pakistani government official. “If the US in future once again blocks deliveries for one reason or another, the pipeline from China would continue. Trust, trust and trust has always been the guiding principle for our two countries.”
______________________________________________________________
:smash