Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre and gf, I have to ask for your opinions on this;

Sure every one of us always has an opinion when we run out of information

Do you think the PAF will have CFTs built on its new built F-16s, what are the disadvantages and advantages? How useful or useless would the CFT be to the PAF, is it relevant to the PAF's requirements?

Hmmm...I think PAF should be interested in CFTs on new F-16s & may be MLUed ones aswell. But dont know wheather it has been asked for or not. My personal opinion is that they should.

The advantage of CFT I see is that they free up the wet points from Drop Tanks allow more space for weapons, so the the payload increases a bit & also the weight from Drop Tanks is reduced.

CFTs are removeable & can be used when felt needed in a mission. I have seen Israeli F-16I Sufa's pictures with out CFTs. This is a good feature of CFTs. Alot of people say that CFTs cause stress along fuseladge. This may be the disadvantage but as I said before CFTs can be removed so its not much of trouble on the other hand I herd that u have to remove the gun panel to install CFTs ..thts the big disadvantage.

What are the prospects of the 3rd fighter being inducted into PAF before (and after) the completion of the F-16 order? Is it likely to be Gripen, another American fighter?

The prospects of 3rd fighter at the moment is high but the time is what PAF has after the decision of 75 F-16s hence they'll take their time. It might take 2 to 3 years. I would be suprised to see PAF come out with the name of the 3rd Platform over night at this moment.

All I know is that PAF is in discussions with Europeans for high-tech fighter to be inducted along with F-16s. Only three High-tech jets come to my mind from Europe; EF-2000 (still has 5 yrs or so & would be inducted in the owner countries 1st so they export versions would be even late...thts my believe), Rafale (See what GF has been saying...its prospects are very very low even though it was on the paper)..Hence it leaves us with JAS-39 Gripen, PAF has been in discussions over Gripens even before F-16s were allowed to be sold & officials now say that discussions are going smoothly.

On the other hand I dont understand why a country which is buying advance
F-16s of Block 50/52+ C/D be buying Gripens. Gripens have lower range than F-16s & my opinion is that PAF should have a long range Air Superiority fighter than inducting a fighter in the same league as F-16s, uses almost the same weapons as F-16s & have similar features. Only advantage I see in Gripen is that it can also carry French weapons & Swedes are making their own weapons with Germans.

As I said PAF has time on its hands & thats why they are concentrating more on inducting AirBorn & Ground based advance Radars systems more than inducting a 3rd fighter.

I think we would find out abt AWACs pretty soon.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

No it wasn't. It was actually a Toschka(??) battlefield rocket vectored onto the location once the Russians triangulated the signal of the mobile/cell phone. It was also from 80km away. They took out the Chechyan commander and a few of his aides. It was 10 minutes from identification to termination - pretty fancy "footwork" from the Russians and a damn good example of how dynamic new battlefield rockets can be. HARM was not used against a mobile phone signal source. The incident was written up in JED two years ago.

I thought it was a MiG-29 that dropped the bomb on the Chechyan Commander. I saw it on NETGEO. They made a reinactment of it. The guy was talking on the cell phone when Russians got the signals & sent a MiG-29 to do the Job.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I thought it was a MiG-29 that dropped the bomb on the Chechyan Commander. I saw it on NETGEO. They made a reinactment of it. The guy was talking on the cell phone when Russians got the signals & sent a MiG-29 to do the Job.

Negative. It was a Toschka. I've got the action report sitting somewhere in my files. JED and USNI Proceedings ran a very complete article on it as part of a synopsis on the flexible use of battlefield missiles as part of a TAC response. It was compared to the US capability where they have shortened their response times for a result on target from 3hrs to less than 5 minutes if deliverers are in area. In the case of the Chechyan it was not possible to call in an air strike in time, so they resorted to using the battlefield rocket as they wanted to make sure he could not get away. 10 minutes from target ID to termination. It was a direct result of that event that the US was able to finesse some of their info on the Toschka as they followed the incident "remotely" as it unfolded.

I'll see if I can drag up an de-class version of the event.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/13/nat38.htm

Gen Ehsan begins China visit

BEIJING, Sept 12: Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Ehsan Ul Haq arrived in Urumqi, capital of Xinjiang autonomous region to begin his weeklong official visit to China.

Defence sources told APP that Gen Ehsan is visiting China on invitation of his Chinese counterpart, chief of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). He is scheduled to reach Beijing on Monday. During his stay, he would meet Chinese leaders to discuss matters relating to bilateral cooperation in the defence sector.

The CJCSC will visit some formations of the three services of Chinese PLA and watch demonstration of the most sophisticated weapons system developed by China. He will also review progress on ‘JF-17 Thunder’ multi-role plane being built jointly by Pakistan and China.

According to sources, the visit is a part of regular exchanges at the highest level to further strengthen their bilateral ties in all fields of common interest.

Their defence relations have always been a great source for building confidence and self-reliance.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=118826

ISLAMABAD, September 13 (Online): The combat aircraft of Pakistan Air Force carried out operations from one of the several runways prepared on Motorway.



This exercise was one of the activities of a month long High Mark-2005 Exercise, which encompasses all spheres of operational employment of Air Power under various situations.

The landings by PAF fighter aircraft on the Motorway would also authenticate parameters pertaining to level of preparedness. The ability to operate from the road runways would not only enhance redundancy but would also provide flexibility of operations.

The Chief of Air Staff, who is keenly monitoring the Exercise High Mark-2005, expressed complete confidence in the professional skills of PAF pilots .

During the Exercise High Mark-2005 the entire gambit of operations would be undertaken. This exercise is designed to validate some of PAF's operational concepts and would bring out useful analysis for steering future force employment concepts.

____________________________________________________________

The pakistani way

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sure every one of us always has an opinion when we run out of information



Hmmm...I think PAF should be interested in CFTs on new F-16s & may be MLUed ones aswell. But dont know wheather it has been asked for or not. My personal opinion is that they should.

The advantage of CFT I see is that they free up the wet points from Drop Tanks allow more space for weapons, so the the payload increases a bit & also the weight from Drop Tanks is reduced.

CFTs are removeable & can be used when felt needed in a mission. I have seen Israeli F-16I Sufa's pictures with out CFTs. This is a good feature of CFTs. Alot of people say that CFTs cause stress along fuseladge. This may be the disadvantage but as I said before CFTs can be removed so its not much of trouble on the other hand I herd that u have to remove the gun panel to install CFTs ..thts the big disadvantage.



The prospects of 3rd fighter at the moment is high but the time is what PAF has after the decision of 75 F-16s hence they'll take their time. It might take 2 to 3 years. I would be suprised to see PAF come out with the name of the 3rd Platform over night at this moment.

All I know is that PAF is in discussions with Europeans for high-tech fighter to be inducted along with F-16s. Only three High-tech jets come to my mind from Europe; EF-2000 (still has 5 yrs or so & would be inducted in the owner countries 1st so they export versions would be even late...thts my believe), Rafale (See what GF has been saying...its prospects are very very low even though it was on the paper)..Hence it leaves us with JAS-39 Gripen, PAF has been in discussions over Gripens even before F-16s were allowed to be sold & officials now say that discussions are going smoothly.

On the other hand I dont understand why a country which is buying advance
F-16s of Block 50/52+ C/D be buying Gripens. Gripens have lower range than F-16s & my opinion is that PAF should have a long range Air Superiority fighter than inducting a fighter in the same league as F-16s, uses almost the same weapons as F-16s & have similar features. Only advantage I see in Gripen is that it can also carry French weapons & Swedes are making their own weapons with Germans.

As I said PAF has time on its hands & thats why they are concentrating more on inducting AirBorn & Ground based advance Radars systems more than inducting a 3rd fighter.

I think we would find out abt AWACs pretty soon.

acquiring the ef2000 would iam sure be a headache,because:
1)it is highly costly(70million dollars per aircrafts)
2)too many partners are involved in the deal,so there will be different sources of spares and also approval for sale will be required from all the partners.
3)i think in terms of performance and capability it is more or less comparable to the f16b52.

gripens i believe are capable being ecquipped with aesa ,so if you can get an aesa with the gripen its a very good deal,otherwise i think it would be a waste of money to acquire a completely different aircraft of which paf has no prior experience,i believe if pakistan will ever acquire a third fourth generation fighter then it will be the chinese j-10.:coffee
it would iam sure cost lesser than gripen ,and would be more or less comparable to it in terms of performance and capability,besides pakistan has time tested relations with china and china has no defence relations with india(unlike sweden),and also pakistan has experience with the chinese jets.:coffee

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Negative. It was a Toschka. I've got the action report sitting somewhere in my files. JED and USNI Proceedings ran a very complete article on it as part of a synopsis on the flexible use of battlefield missiles as part of a TAC response. It was compared to the US capability where they have shortened their response times for a result on target from 3hrs to less than 5 minutes if deliverers are in area. In the case of the Chechyan it was not possible to call in an air strike in time, so they resorted to using the battlefield rocket as they wanted to make sure he could not get away. 10 minutes from target ID to termination. It was a direct result of that event that the US was able to finesse some of their info on the Toschka as they followed the incident "remotely" as it unfolded.

I'll see if I can drag up an de-class version of the event.

isnt tocka a short range surface to surface ballistic(not a rocket)seems too expensive an option just to kill a couple of mercenaries.:coffee

 

[HAPPYBIRTHDAY]

Here is Intersting thing about PAF

The Air Force is organized into 20 squadrons containing some 504 aircraft.

Cnt Designation Description Nuclear
Capable Speed Range
4 E-2C Airborne Early Warning (AEW)
4 E-3A Airborne Early Warning (AEW)
3 P-3C Orien Anti-Submarine Warfare Patrol 5-20KT 550kts 18 hours flight time
29 F-16A Falcon Air Defense(FTR) 5-40KT M2.0 850km
11 F-16B Trainer 5-40KT M2.0 850km
58 Mirage V Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR) 5-40KT M2.2 500km
110 Mirage III Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR)
12 Mirage III RP Reconnaissance and Patrol
49 Chinese A5c Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR) 5-20KT M1.12 600km
135 Chinese Q5 Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR)
50 Chinese J6 Fighter Interceptor (FTR)
160 Chinese F-7P Fighter Interceptor (FTR) (mod MIG-21)
53 T-37 Flight Trainer
16 C-130 Hercules Transport/Cargo
3 Boeing 707 VIP Transport 1MT 560 kts 3000 miles
From the Federation of American Scientists online and the Pakistani Air Defense Institute online
A later article on nuclear delivery systems from FAS indicates the total inventory in 2001 of Mirage fighters is now near 150. The FAS also reports that Pakistan has purchased and received some 28 Harpoon (AGM-84) anti-shipping missiles, 360 AIM-9L sidewinder and three P-3C aircraft.

The F-16A count is not verified -- may be confused with undelivered aircraft purchased but not delivered during Clinton administration. However, the Pakistani No. 9 and No. 11 are supposed to be flying F-16 As with the No. l1 squadron also flying the B model for training.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

The Air Force is organized into 20 squadrons containing some 504 aircraft.

Cnt Designation Description Nuclear
Capable Speed Range
4 E-2C Airborne Early Warning (AEW)
4 E-3A Airborne Early Warning (AEW)
3 P-3C Orien Anti-Submarine Warfare Patrol 5-20KT 550kts 18 hours flight time
29 F-16A Falcon Air Defense(FTR) 5-40KT M2.0 850km
11 F-16B Trainer 5-40KT M2.0 850km
58 Mirage V Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR) 5-40KT M2.2 500km
110 Mirage III Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR)
12 Mirage III RP Reconnaissance and Patrol
49 Chinese A5c Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR) 5-20KT M1.12 600km
135 Chinese Q5 Ground Attack Fighter (FTR-BMR)
50 Chinese J6 Fighter Interceptor (FTR)
160 Chinese F-7P Fighter Interceptor (FTR) (mod MIG-21)
53 T-37 Flight Trainer
16 C-130 Hercules Transport/Cargo
3 Boeing 707 VIP Transport 1MT 560 kts 3000 miles
From the Federation of American Scientists online and the Pakistani Air Defense Institute online
A later article on nuclear delivery systems from FAS indicates the total inventory in 2001 of Mirage fighters is now near 150. The FAS also reports that Pakistan has purchased and received some 28 Harpoon (AGM-84) anti-shipping missiles, 360 AIM-9L sidewinder and three P-3C aircraft.

The F-16A count is not verified -- may be confused with undelivered aircraft purchased but not delivered during Clinton administration. However, the Pakistani No. 9 and No. 11 are supposed to be flying F-16 As with the No. l1 squadron also flying the B model for training.

i dont think pakistan as of now has the hawkeyes,though they have placed orders for the erieyes.as of now pakistan doesnt have awacs ,but they will have it in the near future(and they will be erieyes).:coffee

 

[SABRE]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

i dont think pakistan as of now has the hawkeyes,though they have placed orders for the erieyes.as of now pakistan doesnt have awacs ,but they will have it in the near future(and they will be erieyes).:coffee

There has been no placing of orders on ERIEYEs. There has been no deal yet on either E2C or ERIEYE & we might see both of them being inducted if not both than for some reason my 6th sense says E2C HawkEye.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/13/nat38.htm

Gen Ehsan begins China visit

BEIJING, Sept 12: Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee (CJCSC) General Ehsan Ul Haq arrived in Urumqi, capital of Xinjiang autonomous region to begin his weeklong official visit to China.

Defence sources told APP that Gen Ehsan is visiting China on invitation of his Chinese counterpart, chief of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). He is scheduled to reach Beijing on Monday. During his stay, he would meet Chinese leaders to discuss matters relating to bilateral cooperation in the defence sector.

The CJCSC will visit some formations of the three services of Chinese PLA and watch demonstration of the most sophisticated weapons system developed by China. He will also review progress on ‘JF-17 Thunder’ multi-role plane being built jointly by Pakistan and China.

According to sources, the visit is a part of regular exchanges at the highest level to further strengthen their bilateral ties in all fields of common interest.

Their defence relations have always been a great source for building confidence and self-reliance.

Why Xianjing? Is China planning to join OIC like Russia or are they planning furhter links between Muslim populated regions?

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

There has been no placing of orders on ERIEYEs. There has been no deal yet on either E2C or ERIEYE & we might see both of them being inducted if not both than for some reason my 6th sense says E2C HawkEye.

but then what about all those statements regarding pakistan acquiring erieye's mounted on saab2000's,wasnt that deal signed when musharraf visited sweden?
and also what is the point of purchasing two different systems intended to do the same job? wouldn't it be better to purchase a singe system which is the most superior of the two?

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

but then what about all those statements regarding pakistan acquiring erieye's mounted on saab2000's,wasnt that deal signed when musharraf visited sweden?
and also what is the point of purchasing two different systems intended to do the same job? wouldn't it be better to purchase a singe system which is the most superior of the two?

And also the price difference also matters the ERIYE were half of the price of those HAWKEYE

 

[SABRE]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

but then what about all those statements regarding pakistan acquiring erieye's mounted on saab2000's,wasnt that deal signed when musharraf visited sweden?
and also what is the point of purchasing two different systems intended to do the same job? wouldn't it be better to purchase a singe system which is the most superior of the two?

There was no deal signing..Sweden only said that they are willing to. PAF officials evaluated in Sweden but just b4 decision US offered E2C & made a presentation to PN.

E2C has better performance & is good for naval forces. ERIEYE suits PAF's missions in north, thats why there is chances of both being inducted.

E2C has a range of 550+ Km while ERIEYE has range of 350Km while E3 has 320Km but E3 has easy Ground & Sea simultanious detection ability hence if E3 is offered Pakistan may settle for as it would support both AF & Navy but if Pakistan is looking for longer range as well as have a good maritime platform than we'll have to settle for E2C. But since ERIEYE was rolled out in 1997 it offers latest technology. It can also inform wheather AC on radar is friend or foe. Hence it is tough to say which is more superior even the most AFs will prefer round top radar AWACs like E3 & E2C.

I see very little chances of E3. It would still be better to operate ERIEYE with PAF & E2C with both PAF & PN.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

isnt tocka a short range surface to surface ballistic(not a rocket)seems too expensive an option just to kill a couple of mercenaries.:coffee

he wasn't just a mercenary - he was the "big kahuna". They'd been trying to get him for over 5 years. they were monitoring his comms traffic, managed to triangulate where he was and decided then and there to take the shot.

it's a classic example of efficient decision making. the means of delivery is irrelevant considering the nature of the target. the nearest aircraft was 30minutes away and they were not prepared to risk him being "lost" if he moved out of mobile ph range.

Using a battlefield rocket in this case was far more efficient than using a plane.

/hijack off

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Here is Intersting thing about PAF

while E3 has 320Km

E3 has considerably greater range than 320km - it is also further than the E2C.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE after PAF settling with F-16s issue you know PAF will want a plane which should be superior to the the F-16s or least they must be similar to the F-16s.
I know Rafale will reamin an Orphan because of its high price and no chance for the induction of EF-2000 a lot of countries are partners firstly the earlier versions would be used by them then an export varient will come and will be expoted this is going to be tricky,expensive and too late for the PAF.ANd if JAS 39 Gripen then its better to buy more F-16s form US.It uses US engine (chance for the senction why not buy things directly).

I think the options for the PAF are limited what do you think about the induction of F-15s or F-18s they are good planes and they can do the job in PAF

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF Jets undertake landings on Motorway
APP
Tue, 13 Sep 2005, 11:03


ISLAMABAD: The combat aircraft of Pakistan Air Force carried out operations from one of the several runways prepared on Motorway.

This exercise was one of the activities of a month long High Mark-2005 Exercise, which encompasses all spheres of operational employment of Air Power under various situations.

The landings by PAF fighter aircraft on the Motorway would also authenticate parameters pertaining to level of preparedness. The ability to operate from the road runways would not only enhance redundancy but would also provide flexibility of operations.

The Chief of Air Staff, who is keenly monitoring the Exercise High Mark-2005, expressed complete confidence in the professional skills of PAF pilots .

During the Exercise High Mark-2005 the entire gambit of operations would be undertaken. This exercise is designed to validate some of PAF's operational concepts and would bring out useful analysis for steering future force employment concepts




URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003384.php


I am really confused that where these runways are present mean to say that near which city and why they land there are they going to refuel form the Patrol Pumps

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF to buy 28 Karakoram-8 jet trainers
APP
Tue, 13 Sep 2005, 10:12


Islamabad: Pakistan Air Force (PAF) will buy some 28 Karakoram-8 jet trainers from China to phase out its ageing fleet of US-origin T-37 jets.

''We have already placed the order with China for the purchase of the jets,'' a senior PAF official told UNI here today.

Pakistan and China had jointly manufactured the K-8, which the PAF academy is presently flying in addition to the T-37s and Chinese-made FT-5s to train its aviation cadets.

''Both T-37s and FT-5s are quite old and we want to replace them with K-8s in order to train our cadets on modern jets,'' said the official, adding that the K-8s will start arriving early next year in the consignments of 6-8 aircraft.

Pakistani experts indigenously overhaul and upgrade the K-8s, which the PAF is flying, at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) near Islamabad.

The complex, which is rebuilding the whole range of aircraft in the PAF's inventory, also plans to overhaul JF-17 (Thunder) jets simultaneously with the K-8s at its aircraft manufacturing factory (AMF).

Jointly manufactured by Pakistan and China, JF-17s will start joining the PAF's fleet from December 2006, followed by the commencement of their serial production in the country.



URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_003380.php


Yeah PAF really need to replace its ageing AC's whether they are trainers or fighters placing this extra order would speed up the replacement.

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE after PAF settling with F-16s issue you know PAF will want a plane which should be superior to the the F-16s or least they must be similar to the F-16s.
I know Rafale will reamin an Orphan because of its high price and no chance for the induction of EF-2000 a lot of countries are partners firstly the earlier versions would be used by them then an export varient will come and will be expoted this is going to be tricky,expensive and too late for the PAF.ANd if JAS 39 Gripen then its better to buy more F-16s form US.It uses US engine (chance for the senction why not buy things directly).

I think the options for the PAF are limited what do you think about the induction of F-15s or F-18s they are good planes and they can do the job in PAF

Well i for one definitely agree on this point since Rafale n typhoon seem to be out of reach it would be a good idea to go for F-15sor 18s , rather if i had my personal say i would definitely vouch 4 F-15s equipped with latest AESA APG-63 V3 radars plus host of other goodies, it seems that these latest additions has really given F-15 s a new lease of life since it seems to be winning every contest where it was pitted against the Rafale or Typhoon!!!