Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE,I HAVE A FEW QUESTIONS REGARDING THE PAF,PN,MISSILES,and ARMY!

I dont have much to tell or find/ask for answers to your any one else's questions...now days intelegence is protecting the flow of information. No one wants to say any thing & news doesnt get spread easily untill the day of annoucements come. The Babur Crusie Missile Test & Pak FM meeting with Israeli FM is one big example of it. But I'll tell you what ever I have.

1) Can you please tell me the latest information on what AWACS,ERIEYE/AEW etc. Pakistan is to aquire?

This has been answered quite alot. Not only me but some expert members have given quite some comments.

Anyways....PAF was origionaly in favor of ERIEYE as Sweden made it available almost out right. PN would have settled for any thing PAF was going for. But than came a choice as US Offered E2C HawkEye. This fits the Navy well & has double minded PAF but it has actualy taken PAF's demand to next level. From what I herd PAF is interest in E3C but there seems to be no movement on this.

No choice has been made. Even multi platforms can be inducted e.g: Both E2C & ERIEYE.

2) And can you gimme the low down on what S-A-M systems and radar systems pakistan is to aquire?including info on the FT-2000

I only know that PM has given go ahead for the purchase of new & advance ground based Radars. for SAMs I herd NESCOM is under development of Long Range SAM probably with the help of China. Not much info on either of this. I am not much into Radars & SAMs so never asked abt the.

3) Also can you tell me info on the H-4 and the SD-10?(including origin)

Lols.. ..If u go few pages back you'll find I my self m confused on this.

In 1999 South Africa gave NESCOM T-Darters & allowed its reverse engineering. T-Darter is a medium range BVRAAM.

But in 2002 & 2003 NESCOM came out with three Missiles. Two of them were H-2 & H-4 while I just can seem to find any thing on the 3rd.

Some call H-4 BVRAAM & Pak version of T-Darter. This make H-4 a BVRAAM. But according to some reports its an Air To Ground BVR Missile with 120Km Range.

I my self m looking into this, asking questions to get it clearified. Hopefuly I'll get answer if I manage to find some one who flies Mirage-3 ROSE III or some related to it or may be some one from DM who knws abt it.

SD-10 is Chinese BVR with some amount funding by Pakistan. This funding will allow Pakistan to produce SD-10 at home for it self only. From what I have read in different reports its a copy of Russian R-77 of some thing BVRAAM. Its range is about 100Km.

4) And finally is the PAF likely to aquire the J-10 or is it going to fall for the RAFALE or GRIPPEN?

I think there is no chance for J-10. I asked a Chinese friend who is also member here & he said China can hardly produce J-10s regularly for it self how would it produce & sell another country. PAF can go for ToT but Kamra is already busy with lot of things like JF-17, Super Mushaq, K-8 & over over hauling fighters + major maintainance of F-16 over hauling facility preparing it to be upgraded. For reasons like these Kamra had stopped the home production of K-8 & just restarted it few months back.

PAF seems to be in favor of Gripen. They say its pilot friendly for countries which fly F-16. PAF is under discussion with Sweden over it & it has been going well. I think if Sweden sells Gripens to PAF than PAF will finaly settle on ERIEYE.

Rafale as far as I know was on the paper but its fate is in the hands of PAF & French. French would like to sell it but I dont knw wheather PAF is willing to commit it self to high cost fighter.

SORRY FOR SO MANY QUESTIONS!

lols...Only 3 questions but anyways take notice of what I have said at the top. I have limited knowledge in lot of areas & now days information is barred from leaving the concerened ppl's office's walls. Even small things have gone Top secret so I cant answer every question asked besides it doesnt look good calling or emailing same ppl again n again regularly.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

2) The EuroF missed out on Singapore due to the fact that the Strike model is still 4-6 years distant - Musharaff has been gearing his forces to strike.

I dint quite get this point. U r talkin of Singapore & than about Musharaf. U cant see it but I am scratching my head. I know EF-2000 has still abt 4-5 yrs but what does that have to do with Musharaf gearing forces to strike???

3) Rafale once again is an orphan. Read the Janes assessment of why its failing.
- current Mirage derivatives are half the price and 3/4's the capability
- Rafale is rated only with SPECTRA - which like PAK-FA is mostly enthusiastic talk with little evidence of existence. On top of which, won't be available for export to anyone
- It's still an orphan - nobody sees a reason to buy it when other more cost effective capability is apparently in service. No country will buy an orphan. Now if a sophisticated "gold alpha" user like Singapore rejects it - then deep in the bowels of their assessment results there must be a reason (outside of the fact that the F-15 was a better strike package)

Seems like it will die an Orphan's death like F-14. Cant realy count Iranians any more can we?

Why would any country buy an aircraft who's real force enhancements are not for sale? and who's base performance is only rated 20% above an M2K?

The better option would be Mirage2000-9 or Mirage2000-5 Mark-2. They have some Rafale characteristics & features.

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre, thanks for clearing that fighter issue up earlier.

As for the AWACS issue, well now with so many options available, the PAF can afford to use these options as leverages to lower prices. The options available are obviously the Erieye and Hawkeye, but the Wedgetail reportedly entered the competition. We can expect further negotiations between the PAF and the source it'll be buying from, to further reduce price, speed up delivery, we'll have to wait and see.

On the issue of operating multiple platforms, yes it does cost more, but we have to look at the situation on our side. Pakistan is as well as know, the world in one, it has mountains, deserts, jungles, and coasts with the sea. Note the Erieye was designed for the cold and moutainous climate of Scandanavia (Sweden), while the Hawkeye was designed for coastal and maritime arenas. It could be that the PAF would acquire two types, or one really good type (Wedgetail), which Australia bought to handle its multiple arenas.

For the missiles and bombs, well this is what I know;
The H-2 and H-4 are from the South African Raptor-I and II series. The reasoning behind this is that, the ranges are exactly the same, the Raptor-I and H-2 being 60km, while the H-4 and Raptor-II are 120km. The Raptor/H-series are Air-to-Surface Glide bombs.

The T-Darter, the PAF's reported BVRAAM is supposedly a modified/improved S-Darter, which is a pretty old missile. The range reported on the T-Darter is 60km, being a bit more than the S-Darter.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I dint quite get this point. U r talkin of Singapore & than about Musharaf. U cant see it but I am scratching my head. I know EF-2000 has still abt 4-5 yrs but what does that have to do with Musharaf gearing forces to strike???

The last F-16 A2A was the F-16A/B. All others have been multi-role strike. In reference to the comment that they are no longer state of the art - then whats that predicated on? They are still state of the art.

Seems like it will die an Orphan's death like F-14. Cant realy count Iranians any more can we?

Thats a ridiculous thing to say. The F-14's had ay least mulitple users. They also had mass in volume. The Rafales are on a reduced order (they've ordered less now) Look at the purchasing cycle of Leclerc and there are some clear similarities in the procurement cycle. As of today, Rafale is an orphan and has not been picked by any gold alpha buyers in any of the procurement runoffs.

The better option would be Mirage2000-9 or Mirage2000-5 Mark-2. They have some Rafale characteristics & features.

Agree wholeheartedly. Thats exactly what I'm trying to point out.

 

[PAF-PILOT#15]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

U guys, i really thank you for providing me with so much info!

I think the clouds in my head should be clearing up by now

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre and gf, I have to ask for your opinions on this;

Do you think the PAF will have CFTs built on its new built F-16s, what are the disadvantages and advantages? How useful or useless would the CFT be to the PAF, is it relevant to the PAF's requirements?

What are the prospects of the 3rd fighter being inducted into PAF before (and after) the completion of the F-16 order? Is it likely to be Gripen, another American fighter?

Just asking for a simple opinion.

 

[PAF-PILOT#15]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

PAF being equipped with state-of-the-art technology: Aziz

SEPTEMBER/11/05

RAWALPINDI: Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said on Sunday that the government was improving the Pakistan Air Force by equipping it with new planes and weapons systems.

“We will maintain a minimum credible deterrence, but believe that peace can only be attained through strength,†Aziz said following a detailed briefing here at the PAF’s Command Operations Centre.

He said the government was allocating resources to equip the PAF with more high-tech equipment. “It is vital that both the latest training and weapon systems are employed to defend the country’s aerial frontiers,†he said.

Aziz said the induction of an air-borne radar system would improve the response time and ability of Pakistan’s armed forces, allowing it to detect threats in advance and take appropriate tactical action to neutralise them.

He said the PAF was inducting F-16 and JF-17 Thunder aircraft, the latter produced by a joint Pakistani-Chinese venture.

The prime minister was earlier briefed on Highmark Exercise 2005 and said it would improve the strategy, techniques and capabilities of the PAF. The exercises would also improve the PAF’s coordination with the army and navy. Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Aslam Chaudhry, deputy chief of air staff (operations), briefed the prime minister on the month-long exercise that will be conducted across the country from the Northern Areas to the Arabian Sea in three phases. Over 8,000 sorties will be flown in the exercise, which is more than the total sorties Pakistani pilots flew in the 1965 (2,500) and 1971 (3,500) wars combined.

The entire PAF force of fighter squadrons, transport fleet, ground crew, air defence and supporting units will participate in the exercise.

Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat, Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Tanveer Mehmood Ahmed and principal staff officers also attended the briefing. app

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dawn.com/2005/09/12/top2.htm

PM Hints Air-Borne System For Pakistan Air Force ​

Sept 12, 2005: In an interview Pakistani prime minister Mr. Shaukat Aziz has said that the government was according top priority to country's air defence and would provide all necessary resources to boost its capabilities. "We would maintain the minimum credible deterrence, but believe that peace can only be attained through strength", he said following a detailed briefing here at the PAF's Command Operations Centre. He said Pakistan is a peaceful country and wishes to live with peace with all its neighbours.

He however added "peace can only be achieved through strength and the government is doing all to further strengthen its defence to achieve peace." Prime Minister Aziz, who visited the PAF's Command Operations Centre to get the latest update on the Exercise Highmark 2005, said the government was allocating all resources for boosting the efficiency of Air Force and called for inducting more high-tech equipment to enhance its punch.

Prime Minister Aziz said the induction of the new air-borne radar system would increase the response time and ability of Pakistan's armed forces, allowing it to detect threats in advance and initiate appropriate tactical actions to neutralize it.

He said the PAF was inducting latest aircraft including the F-16s and the JF-17 Thunder to enhance its firepower and defensive and offensive capabilities. He stressed the need for self-reliance keeping in view the geo-political realities and added "Pakistanwill never compromise on its national interests and integrity." The Prime Minister said such exercises played an important role in enhancing the overall preparedness level of the Pakistan Air Force. He said it would help improve the strategy, techniques and capabilities of the PAF. He said the exercise would give confidence to the PAF besides increasing cooperation and coordination with the Pakistan Army and Pakistan Navy. He also noted the role of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra which was playing a critical role in not only keeping the Air Force fully operational and was an important aviation industrial base of the country.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said latest equipment was being inducted into the Air Force, including latest fighter aircraft, air-borne and ground radars and electronic warfare equipment to make the PAF more potent. "The nation is proud of Pakistan Air Force and appreciate its performance and role in defending country's aerial frontiers", he added. Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz was given a detailed briefing about the largest-ever Exercise of Pakistan Air Force. Air Vice Marshal Shahzad Aslam Chaudhry, Deputy Chief of Air Staff (Operations) informed that the month-long exercise would be conducted across the country from the Northern Areas to the Arabian Sea in three phases and over 8000 sorties would be flown. He said the entire PAF fleet comprising the fighter squadrons, transport fleet, ground crew, air defence and supporting units were participating in the exercise. He said the exercise was being conducted between two adversaries, the Blue Land and the Fox Land, that are engaged in offensive and defensive operations.

He said the basic objective of the exercise is to analyze and prepare the Pakistan Air Force for future challenges. He said all fighting squadrons including the F-16, F-7PG Mirage, A-5s and other aircraft of the PAF besides the radar units were involved in day and night operations.

___________________________________________________________

Looks like the AWACs deal is only inches away. it would be interesting to see the Musharuff-Bush talks after the UN assembly.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre and gf, I have to ask for your opinions on this;

Do you think the PAF will have CFTs built on its new built F-16s, what are the disadvantages and advantages? How useful or useless would the CFT be to the PAF, is it relevant to the PAF's requirements?

What are the prospects of the 3rd fighter being inducted into PAF before (and after) the completion of the F-16 order? Is it likely to be Gripen, another American fighter?

Just asking for a simple opinion.

To be honest matey I have no idea. You're better off asking Sabre as he's "the local".

CFT's are of benefit if you need range, or if you want to be able to carry heavier loadouts into the same target area. In the absence of having AAR, then it makes sense, but as to whether it's of tactical benefit, the someone like PShamin would be more knowledgable - after all he's an ex PAF pilot.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Has Pakistan at present any anti radiation missiles? These type of exercises will be not rtealistic without the induction and testing of this technology. In all the major conflicts inc Gulf wars (p1 and 2) these HARM's have been used against fighter aircraft radars and ground based radars. They have even been used by the Russian in Chechnya against rebel communication networks (mobile phones).

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I would also like to ask the following.

Has Pakistan got the technology, intends to develop, or even procure (BAE systems) non radiation ommitting radar systems. They would be the most important technological leap in aircraft technology over the last decade or so?

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I would also like to ask the following.

Has Pakistan got the technology, intends to develop, or even procure (BAE systems) non radiation ommitting radar systems. They would be the most important technological leap in aircraft technology over the last decade or so?

i believe ukraine and czechoslovakia have that technology and china and india are developing similiar technology,pakistan has best chance of acquiring it from ukraine.(it is capable of detecting even stealth aircrafts),these radars are called as the low probability of intercept radars.:coffee

 

[gf0012-aust]

Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

.....They have even been used by the Russian in Chechnya against rebel communication networks (mobile phones).

No it wasn't. It was actually a Toschka(??) battlefield rocket vectored onto the location once the Russians triangulated the signal of the mobile/cell phone. It was also from 80km away. They took out the Chechyan commander and a few of his aides. It was 10 minutes from identification to termination - pretty fancy "footwork" from the Russians and a damn good example of how dynamic new battlefield rockets can be. HARM was not used against a mobile phone signal source. The incident was written up in JED two years ago.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

No it wasn't. It was actually a Toschka(??) battlefield rocket vectored onto the location once the Russians triangulated the signal of the mobile/cell phone. It was also from 80km away. They took out the Chechyan commander and a few of his aides. It was 10 minutes from identification to termination - pretty fancy "footwork" from the Russians and a damn good example of how dynamic new battlefield rockets can be. HARM was not used against a mobile phone signal source. The incident was written up in JED two years ago.

The Russians were reluctant to provide details at the time. There were some sources at the time who were quoting that the Russians had imported a 'HARM' for that particular operation.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

The Russians were reluctant to provide details at the time. There were some sources at the time who were quoting that the Russians had imported a 'HARM' for that particular operation.

Nope, not true (certainly not in the JED article). They even had the name of the Russian battlefield commander and he went through the engagement steps. It was a battlefield rocket that would normally be used for taking out massed armour or massed forces. There was nothing left of the Chechyans except a huge crater. That implies that the Russians had a pretty tight CEP, and moreso, a broad area of blast effect. A HARM wouldn't have been able to bring that kind of blast effect to the table.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Nope, not true (certainly not in the JED article). They even had the name of the Russian battlefield commander and he went through the engagement steps. It was a battlefield rocket that would normally be used for taking out massed armour or massed forces. There was nothing left of the Chechyans except a huge crater. That implies that the Russians had a pretty tight CEP, and moreso, a broad area of blast effect. A HARM wouldn't have been able to bring that kind of blast effect to the table.

Blast site did appear rather large.

 

[Hussain]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

i believe ukraine and czechoslovakia have that technology and china and india are developing similiar technology,pakistan has best chance of acquiring it from ukraine.(it is capable of detecting even stealth aircrafts),these radars are called as the low probability of intercept radars.:coffee

If the Ukraine is producing such high tech technology then why aren't India, pakistan and iuran purchasing Sukhoi's with these types of radar systems. Hasn't it always been the case that the former USSR was 20 yrs behind on radar technology. They used use valves and other mechanical bits for their radar systems as they didn't computer chips. In any case the reason the gavce for the lack of computer technology was the fact it could be damaged by radiation in the case of a nuclear explosion.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

If the Ukraine is producing such high tech technology then why aren't India, pakistan and iuran purchasing Sukhoi's with these types of radar systems. Hasn't it always been the case that the former USSR was 20 yrs behind on radar technology. They used use valves and other mechanical bits for their radar systems as they didn't computer chips. In any case the reason the gavce for the lack of computer technology was the fact it could be damaged by radiation in the case of a nuclear explosion.

ukranian radar was advanced enough to worry usa that it would fall in irans hands.according to usa china has already acquired this technology,india has its own lpi radar called as the 3d car which will be used on the p28 corvettes,this radar is too big to be used on combat planes,india and russia are developing the snowleapord(irbis)active electronically scanned radar(presumably for the su30),however the most powerfull aesa i believe would be the israeli elta el/m-2054 aesa(this radar weighs between 150-250kgs and has around 1500 t/r modules,can track 64 aircrafts,can detect ships at 160nms-300kms,combat aircrafts at 400kms and also cruise missiles),i dont know the status of this radar except that it is under development and that it is claimed to be suitable for f-16,f-15,su30 and lca,the image of this radar along with specifications have already been posted in the indian millitary pictures thread along with some of its specifications also,israeli elta and bel-india are jointly developing an entire family of sensors for the lca at bangalore as part of a joint venture agreement signed in 2003,
so the bottomline is india does not require the ukranian technology(ukraine had earlier offered an70 aircrafts and 300 karz trucks to india ,which were both rejected),iam sure russia will be very angry if india purchases defence technology from ukraine when russia also markets similiar technology.
also i believe it was ukranian or serbian radars which were in a way responsible for the shooting down of the usa f117 stealth aircraft in bosnia.:coffee

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

also i believe it was ukranian or serbian radars which were in a way responsible for the shooting down of the usa f117 stealth aircraft in bosnia.:coffee

no it had nothing to do with it.

1) It was poor planning (and overconfidence) from the pilot as he had run the same ingress for 4 nights running - so he broke basic rules on mission planning.

2) A French Colonel was charged with treason for releasing flight path information to the Serbs. Somewhere in the archives I have given the exact details of the court martial.

Basically also the serbs had to do was set up a kill box thanks to the French Colonels info and the pilots negligence.


As for the Radar system, IIRC it was Czechoslovak - not Ukrainian. The Ukraines have had nothing to do with the Vera Radar System

 

[aaaditya]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

no it had nothing to do with it.

1) It was poor planning (and overconfidence) from the pilot as he had run the same ingress for 4 nights running - so he broke basic rules on mission planning.

2) A French Colonel was charged with treason for releasing flight path information to the Serbs. Somewhere in the archives I have given the exact details of the court martial.

Basically also the serbs had to do was set up a kill box thanks to the French Colonels info and the pilots negligence.


As for the Radar system, IIRC it was Czechoslovak - not Ukrainian. The Ukraines have had nothing to do with the Vera Radar System

iam sorry about that but wasnt the ukranian radar named something starting with k,can you please give me the name