Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think that Pakistan should still go for erieye!!!!

Could someone comment what the advantages/disadvantages will be of going for Hawkeye instead of Erieye???

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Purely from political point of view n the fact that Erieye is on the verge of conclusion they should not get double minded on the issue , the netcentric capability theyre talkin about exists in erieyes as well plus unless n until one has the allied subsystems on ground n on aircrafts the presence of a capability wont amount to much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Could someone comment what the advantages/disadvantages will be of going for Hawkeye instead of Erieye???

I'd have to check on some of my notes but from recall the following spring to mind:

E2 has a full 360deg persistent sweep
E2 can feather and patrol on one engine for fuel efficiency issues (emergency conditions)
E2's dome can be digitised
E2 has an established track record with fussy clients, eg USN, French Aeronavale, Singapore Def Forces

IIRC some of the Canadian Auroras suite is from the E2 as well.

The frontal lobe for the Eryie is really quite narrow - there was a recent assessment done in C4ISR on beamers vs rotators.

I could try and find my conference notes, but I packed the things away a few weeks ago, so its deep in the bowels of my basement somewhere.

the netcentric capability theyre talkin about exists in erieyes as well plus unless n until one has the allied subsystems on ground n on aircrafts the presence of a capability wont amount to much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sorry, thats bollocks. they're both used under NATO stanag compliance.

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Here is an artical on E2(D)-HawkEye. It mentions the interested potential coustomers as well. Its from Paris Show 2005.

​

PARIS 2005: HARDWARE​

Foreign Involvement in AEW System a Possibility​

Northrop Grumman Corp., prime contractor for the U.S. Navy’s E-2D Advanced Hawkeye, has begun talks with foreign industry about possibly including them in building the airborne early-warning (AEW) system.​

E. David Murray, director of AEW international programs at Northrop Grumman, said June 14 that the company started the production discussions earlier this year with “two or three†countries. Foreign firms involved in the talks include Potez, a French company that builds the tail assembly for the E2-C Hawkeye 2000, the predecessor to the Advanced Hawkeye.

“We are talking of the potential of some countries building major segments†of the Advanced Hawkeye, including possibly having Potez produce the tail assembly, Murray said.

Within the next two years, Northrop Grumman expects to iron out plans for foreign involvement in production, Murray said at a press briefing here at the show. There may also be opportunities for foreign companies to make upgrades to the aircraft, said Navy Capt. Stephen Rorke.

The E-2D is under development, with a critical design review slated for this fall. The Navy hopes to buy 73 Advanced Hawkeyes and begin fielding them in fiscal 2011.

The E-2D is designed to improve upon the E-2C’s situational awareness systems and upgrade the radar suite to provide a missile-tracking capability. The E-2C is used for various missions, including warning of enemy aircraft.

Meanwhile, Northrop Grumman is hoping for more sales of the Hawkeye 2000, the Hawkeye version currently in production. India, Malaysia, Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates all have asked for information about the Hawkeye 2000, Murray said. The U.S. Navy and six foreign countries already operate more than 100 E-2Cs, either the Hawkeye 2000 or an earlier version.

SOURCE: —Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

link: http://www.aviationnow.com/shownews/05paris/hard_4_08.htm

I dont think there would be any chance of E2D to be sold to Pakistan or any other country as yet (Except for major allies like UK) & since the D version is superior to C so it would be safer for US to sell C versions to Pakistan.

Plus judging from the artical it seems that Northrop is more interested in sale than US govt would be. Probably they dnt want the C version to go into garbage bin.

lols...1st we dint have any chance of buying these ACs when we were put on arms sales ban by US & now two countries are willing to sell such technology to us. Meanwhile China seems to have completed its version of AWACs. Though it wont be as superior as these but could build a surplus for Pakistan.

Besides building Pakistan's defence against terror, seems like US is making up for the past 10+ years ruined by the Clinton administration. They are giving things in which we were interested 10 years ago (but in current versions). Cobra, F-16 & HawkEyes seem like an obvious deals to me (Since we were asking for them 10 yrs ago). I want to see some thing new come out

​

GEO​

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........Secretary Defence Wasim Ghazi also inspected the F-18 jets during the visit of the US naval ship.​

​

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lols we wont stop looking at & into F-18s now would be. The for gone opportunity. I think they are still on the evaluation list. Why doesnt PN considers to buy them rather than PAF.​

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​

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Na SABRE. I think PN should spend its money on more frigates, subs and atleast 4 destroyers. anyway back to the topic of PAF. well i think PAF should stick to the erieye all the way but if where getting offered the E-2D (which where not) then go for them.

 

[adsH]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

lols...1st we dint have any chance of buying these ACs when we were put on arms sales ban by US & now two countries are willing to sell such technology to us. Meanwhile China seems to have completed its version of AWACs. Though it wont be as superior as these but could build a surplus for Pakistan.

The E2s were offered to Pakistan during the Pak-Afghan/Soviet war. They were rejected since PAF wanted the E3.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Pakistan did reject the earlier versions but 2000 version is superior, though not as advanced as the "D" version, currently used by USN.

News article on Hawkeye offer to Pakistan in Indian Press: This may very well be true. .

US offer to sell Hawkeye spy aircraft to Pakistan

In an apparent balancing act following concerns expressed by Pakistan over the recently signed 10-year defence pact between India and US, Washington has offered to sell its Hawkeye-2000 surveillance planes to Islamabad.

The American offer to sell the planes was made during a briefing held for top Pakistani defence officials on board US aircraft carrier Nimitz, currently anchored 171 km off Karachi coast on Monday, a Pakistan TV network reported.

Two Hawkeye aircraft were also flown to Pakistan Navy station PNS Mehran in Karachi on Monday to display them for Pakistani defence officials.

A special demonstration of the planes and their features was also held by the commander of Nimitz, Rear Admiral Peter H Daley, on board the warship for the delegation of Pakistan defence officials headed by Defence Secretary Retd General Tariq Wasim Gazil, Geo TV reported.

US had earlier offered to sell surveillance aircraft, being used by US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan to spy on the movements of the terrorists, to Pakistan, it quoted the American officials as saying.

Hawkeye-2000 is operated on ground and on board the US warships. Besides attending the briefing, Gazil also inspected the F-18 jets during the visit of the US naval ship.

The Pakistani Defence officials team that visited the ship included officials from Army, Navy, Air Force and Pakistan's Maritime Security Agency

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1168150.cms

 

[SABRE]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Pakistan did reject the earlier versions but 2000 version is superior, though not as advanced as the "D" version, currently used by USN.

News article on Hawkeye offer to Pakistan in Indian Press: This may very well be true. .



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1168150.cms

Well it is pshamim..it is true...ARY1World showed the footage of Pakistani officials on board the US carrier. They toured E2 & also saw the F-18 in the flight, in fact the F-18 flew to welcome them. I knw ACM is interested in F-18s but were these demonstrations attepmt for marketing I cant say. I dnt thibn US marketing of F-18 will do any good after F-16 deal. Besides F-18s still dnt measure up against PAF's major threat when it comes to AC to AC rather than Weapon to AC.

Anyways which is better E2C or erieye?

 

[webmaster]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I'd have to check on some of my notes but from recall the following spring to mind:

E2 has a full 360deg persistent sweep
E2 can feather and patrol on one engine for fuel efficiency issues (emergency conditions)
E2's dome can be digitised
E2 has an established track record with fussy clients, eg USN, French Aeronavale, Singapore Def Forces

IIRC some of the Canadian Auroras suite is from the E2 as well.

The frontal lobe for the Eryie is really quite narrow - there was a recent assessment done in C4ISR on beamers vs rotators.

I could try and find my conference notes, but I packed the things away a few weeks ago, so its deep in the bowels of my basement somewhere.



sorry, thats bollocks. they're both used under NATO stanag compliance.

Sabre FYI, from Gary's post above and else where on the forum it seems that E2 has an advantage over the Eryie.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre FYI, from Gary's post above and else where on the forum it seems that E2 has an advantage over the Eryie.

Command,Control, and Communications may be another area that could be strengthened. There have been articles on this subject discussing the advantages the Hawkeye could provide in strengthening this particular area. Following article illustrates that very well:

The biggest problem facing the U.S. military on the modern battlefield is command, control, and communications. Large ground-based communication systems are difficult to move, and signals are limited by the curvature of the earth and terrain features. The obvious solution is airborne command and control aircraft. This role was partially filled by the OV-10 Bronco, but that two-man aircraft was limited, and thus retired by the Air Force and Marine Corps. The Army and Air Force recently developed the E-8C JSTARS for Corps-level operations (below). This is an outstanding aircraft, but extremely expensive to build and fly, and must operate from large airbases. As a result, the Army has just four JSTARS in service, and plans for a dozen will not fill the need for 24-hour coverage for each division in combat.

Modern ground forces need something in between, and the answer is the Navy E-2C Hawkeye airborne surveillance and command-and-control platform. This durable aircraft can operate from aircraft carriers or undeveloped runways. Its economical engines allow up to six hours on station with a crew of five to coordinate naval and artillery fire support, close air support, local air defense, medivacs and combat search and rescue. More importantly, the Hawkeye can provide clear, direct communications to ground forces, and an automatic message relay capability.

The Hawkeye force is keeping pace with changing tactical environments via two major upgrades: the E-2C Group II upgrade, and the Radar Modernization Program (RMP). The most advanced Hawkeye variant, the E-2C Group II which is in production today features: extended radar range (40 percent greater than previous E-2 aircraft); improved overland detection capability; color displays; JTIDS, GPS and voice satellite communications. The next upgrade, the Hawkeye 2000, will install a Mission Computer Upgrade and Cooperative Engagement Capability, enhancing the E-2's capabilities in the multiple threat environment. The Mission Computer Upgrade will improve target detection and tracking, and significantly extend the engagement capability of surface forces. The CEC equipped Hawkeye is the key to early cueing of the shipboard Aegis weapons system, dramatically extending the lethal range of the Standard missile (and possibly Patriot missiles) against airborne low altitude low radar cross section targets. Additionally, the E-2's systems are fully interoperable with the Airborne Warning and Control System and ground- based systems.

The Navy is making the Hawkeye more "ground force friendly" with no support from the Army and Marines. This is a major oversight; each division headquarters should have a squadron of Hawkeyes for 24-hour coverage. Marine grunts often complain about the loss of the OV-10Ds, and these were very limited with only a pilot and one crewman to coordinate support. A specific ground support version of the Hawkeye could be produced with limited modifications. Ideally, a "command seat" would be added so that a Colonel from headquarters intimately familiar with the ground operation can ride along to help coordinate activities and make immediate decisions. More importantly, the crew would consist of soldiers or marines trained to support the grunts below.

The E-2C should not be employed as a ground reconnaissance aircraft due to its slow speed and large radar signature, except in benign areas like Afghanistan. It will normally operate at safe altitudes several miles from enemy forces and avoid the temptation to go forward and look for enemy forces. However, future Hawkeyes may be equipped with signal intelligence equipment to help identify targets from a safe distance with technology proven by the just retired Navy ES-3A. Firefinder counter-battery radar would also be desirable. The Hawkeye airframe is ideal to replace the Army's aging RC-12 and RC-7 intelligence gathering aircraft with a new ES-2, especially since it can land and refuel from aircraft carriers. Finally, everyone should recognize the value of buying some C-2 Greyhound cargo variants (below) of the Hawkeye. The C-2 can operate from carriers to move 10,000lbs of cargo to small dirt airstrips or drop people and supplies by parachute. Ideally, each Army and Marine Corps division will have a command support squadron with six E-2Cs, four (newly designed) ES-2s. and two C-2s.

The Marine Corps should make E-2C procurement its #1 aviation priority to fill the huge hole in its future warfare plans. The Marines want to fly from ships 50 miles offshore and land dozens of miles inland in dispersed and fast moving operations. However, the Marine Corps has no solid plans of how ground forces will communicate with ships "over-the-horizon" to provide logistics and fire support. This concept will need sailors aboard a few E-2C Hawkeyes to coordinate movement. This will prove inadequate as each carrier has only five Hawkeyes whose primary mission will remain fleet defense, and whose sailors have little training in supporting ground forces.

The entire US military establishment is excited about information warfare, information dominance, and fast-paced warfare. Billions of dollars are devoted to improving this capability for permanent bases and ships. However, little money has been spent to link the troops in the field with the bases and ships hundreds of miles away. The E-2C Hawkeye is a proven system which is still in production that can quickly fill this gap, if the U.S. military can muster the courage redirect procurement plans to fix its #1 weakness.
Carlton Meyer [email protected]
http://www.g2mil.com/Hawkeye.htm

 

[BilalK]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Sabre

I think the F-18 bit is simply good will from the U.S, I think it was a Pakistani civilian official who inspected it, not a PAF officer. It is also another American plane, the PAF would only seek another aircraft from another source, to back up incase of a political mishap with the F-16s. However, if you ask me, even thats unlikely.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Command,Control, and Communications may be another area that could be strengthened. There have been articles on this subject discussing the advantages the Hawkeye could provide in strengthening this particular area. Following article illustrates that very well:

I agree, it's a pity that the only reference available was from Carlton Meyers - he's a bit of a looney and obsesses about a lot of things which are irrelevant in the scheme of modern warfare.

he's one of those people who I guess you sympathise with (eg anti-Stryker, pro-M113) or you regard as a "loon"

 

[P.A.F]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dawn.com/2005/07/13/top14.htm

No deal on surveillance system yet: envoy




By Anwar Iqbal
WASHINGTON, July 12: Pakistan is considering several airborne surveillance systems to protect its air space against unwanted intrusions but has not yet decided which system to buy, Ambassador Jehangir Karamat told Dawn on Tuesday. He was commenting on media reports that during a briefing for top Pakistani defence officials aboard US aircraft carrier Nimitz, US officials offered to sell Hawkeye-2000 early warning systems to Pakistan. The aircraft carrier is currently anchored 171 kms off Karachi’s coast.

The reports said that two Hawkeye aircraft were also flown to Pakistan Navy station PNS Mehran in Karachi on Monday to display them for Pakistani defence officials.

“Since we have not even asked for them, how can you say that two planes have already been given to Pakistan?†asked Ambassador Karamat while referring to a media report in Urdu which said that “do tayyaray Pakistan ko faraham kar diay gai hain.â€

Mr Karamat, who is also a former army chief and Pakistan’s chief negotiator in Washington for defence purchases, said Hawkeye is one of the several surveillance systems that Pakistan Air Force and Navy are interested in. “To say that we have received them, or the Americans have made any specific offer, will be wrong.â€

Gen Karamat said the Americans had indicated sometime back that they would be prepared to sell the Hawkeye-2000s if Pakistan asked for them. “But no decision has yet been taken. Bilkul naheen.â€

“The air force and the navy have to evaluate this system, compare its price and capabilities with other systems, see what’s available, check the competitiveness of its technology and compare it with our needs before taking any decision,†said Ambassador Karamat.

“So the correct position is that no decision has yet been taken; neither in Washington to give us the planes nor in Islamabad to buy them.â€

Pakistan’s air attaché in Washington, Group Captain Nadeem Javed, said the visit of the Pakistani defence officials to the Nimitz was “a routine visit during which all available aircraft are shown, even rides are offered but no decisions are taken or offered made.â€

Group Capt Javed said Pakistan is also looking at the Swedish surveillance system called Erieye, Boeing’s Airborne Warning and Control System called Awacs, mini-Awacs and a couple of other systems.

Defence experts in Washington say that Pakistan’s main consideration while buying a surveillance system would be its capability to match Israel’s Phalcon Airborne Early Warning, Command and Control System. In March 2004, India signed a $1.1 billion deal with Israel to buy three Phalcons.

Under this deal, the Israeli Phalcon radar is to be mounted and integrated on the Russian-designed IL-76 plane. The Indian Air Force had tried Russian A-50 AWACS planes during war games a few years ago, but later decided to go for the Israeli Phalcon mounted on the IL-76 platform with Russian control systems. The Israel Aircraft Industries developed the Phalcon weapons system both for the Israeli defence forces and for export. The world’s most advanced AEWC&C system, the Phalcon, was developed and produced by ELTA using Active Phased Array Electronic Scanning Technology rather than a mechanically rotating antenna used by current Awacs systems, giving Phalcon greater operational flexibility and performance by several orders of magnitude.

The Phalcon AEW&C aircraft is based on four sensors: phased-array radar, phased-array IFF, ESM/ELINT and CSM/COMINT. A unique fusion technology continuously cross-relates the data gathered by all sensors. When one of the sensors reports a detection, the system automatically initiates an active search of the complementary sensors. The US, which provided the Phalcon technology to Israel, has already cleared the deal with India.

 

[pshamim]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Pakistani Defence is reporting the largest PAF deployment in its history in an exercise to be held this year, most probably on September 7th. More than 350 aircrafts are believed to take part in the exercise.

What is really intriguing that one prototype of JF-17 Thunder aircraft will also take part to test the aircraft in war time situation. For full story please see the link below

.http://www.pakistanidefence.com/new...ark2005_sep.htm

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Pakistani Defence is reporting the largest PAF deployment in its history in an exercise to be held this year, most probably on September 7th. More than 350 aircrafts are believed to take part in the exercise.

What is really intriguing that one prototype of JF-17 Thunder aircraft will also take part to test the aircraft in war time situation. For full story please see the link below

.http://www.pakistanidefence.com/new...ark2005_sep.htm

But there are exibitions on every major bases every year on 7th sept but later the day was changed it changed to 6th sept when it is national holiday and it looked awkward that whole country is having holiday and PAF is celebrating it on 7th
I know when i got adult and started thinking about all things i am visiting the PAF Chanklala air port where there is exibition but after the Musharaf takeover there have not been a single exibition like that i am so sad about that i think there has been only one yes only one.On that day it was really cool to take photos with the F-16 and mirages and the F-7 and the A-5 which came from peshwar and that huge C-130.I am really getting excited to write this.But i am surprised that there will be an excercise on that day may be an exibition i really pray for that if there will be then i will take my camera with me and i will take pictures only consisting of planes not me caz i like the tech to reamin ramain alone in the pics It also includes the Fly past of AC's which PAF has like F-16's mirage A-5 F-7PG's it is really cool to watch.
But if there will be excercise then i think that there will be no exibition soo sad but i think i can see the information on the web and also the pics

 

[mysterious]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What is most confusing at this point (and not clarified by anyone fully as yet) is the engine issue for the Thunder! Is Rd-93 still on the table or is the project bound to run in to problems in order to acquire a new engine?

 

[lakhani]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

What is most confusing at this point (and not clarified by anyone fully as yet) is the engine issue for the Thunder! Is Rd-93 still on the table or is the project bound to run in to problems in order to acquire a new engine?

Nobody can say anything exactly about P.A.F's project until they are disclosed by PAFs officials themselves.

 

[srirangan]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Nobody can say anything exactly about P.A.F's project until they are disclosed by PAFs officials themselves.

SABRE has some sources.

 

[lakhani]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE has some sources.

Well i have jst used the word exactly.The information of Sabre is not exact.
The information of sabre is very minor and thrugh these information sketch is made for complete story but still we cant say that the sketch is correct.

 

[lakhani]

Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

There would have been continous discussions with Russia about engines, surely, but what was discussed is __________ for us.