PAF IN 2015
- Thread starter jastreb
- Start date
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
i doubt that chinese would have any thing to do with refuelers. I think they will contract desault for the refulers. France is goign to be really Pissed on the grippendiscussion but the powerplant will vome from france last i heard. the Awacs would be Swedish-but the platform would be fench. all this is an assumption and all of this could be a front to the real Acquisition plans,which just happened to be leaked out to the press, without any objections from the government. i still think there is a drive going ahead for the F-16 and E3c.
i doubt that chinese would have any thing to do with refuelers. I think they will contract desault for the refulers. France is goign to be really Pissed on the grippendiscussion but the powerplant will vome from france last i heard. the Awacs would be Swedish-but the platform would be fench. all this is an assumption and all of this could be a front to the real Acquisition plans,which just happened to be leaked out to the press, without any objections from the government. i still think there is a drive going ahead for the F-16 and E3c.
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
PAF will need to gets its own AAR. Especially if it wants to counter the effects and advantages of trawling AWACs running racetracks across its border.
The PAF just can't ask for the PLAAF to refuel it's aircraft. Diplomatically that would/could turn into a cluster event of the greatest magnitude.
PAF will need to gets its own AAR. Especially if it wants to counter the effects and advantages of trawling AWACs running racetracks across its border.
Re: 2015 and "Pakistan Air Force"
In many ways this is how People precieve the Chinese PAK relation but no ones looks beneath all that military trade, there is a fundamental and long term grown Love for each other. Pakistan and China have been Friends right from the start. they have been honest and relatively close to each other. their relationship has grown closer and closer over the passing of decades. a common threat has been identified between them that is India. the American sanctions only bought the chinese closer to PAK as China was perceived as the most trust worthy never quitting friend and ally( in a matter of speaking) the American sanctions has caused Pakistan to think indiginous. and in this goal of indiginization has bought Pakistan even closer in almost an alliance stage. so i guess Pakistan will always show an interest in developing, buying and recomending Chinese Military products. an example is the Latest chinese AWAC technology development which PAF undoubtedly would prefer to be a part off, i doubt the Chinese would mind such an agreement to develop the AWACs. PAF personal were Probably the only foreign military personnel that actually had access to J-10 R&D facilities in 1998 where the avionics and other J-10 related top secret Items were being developed and produced. since then PAF has worked very closely in the development of the J-10 sub systems ---- source AFM mag for June
Believe me GF i was going to say the same thing !! Chinese would never tender this level of help to PAF, ever especially at times of war, it would be perceived as an act of war on part of the Chinese. And chinese tend to stay away from sticky Alliances. They would rather prefer to play a proxy role like many powerful Nations. India still see's china and pakistan in a colusive relationship where this pharase means alot : THe Enemy of my enemy is my freind.gf0012 said:
In many ways this is how People precieve the Chinese PAK relation but no ones looks beneath all that military trade, there is a fundamental and long term grown Love for each other. Pakistan and China have been Friends right from the start. they have been honest and relatively close to each other. their relationship has grown closer and closer over the passing of decades. a common threat has been identified between them that is India. the American sanctions only bought the chinese closer to PAK as China was perceived as the most trust worthy never quitting friend and ally( in a matter of speaking) the American sanctions has caused Pakistan to think indiginous. and in this goal of indiginization has bought Pakistan even closer in almost an alliance stage. so i guess Pakistan will always show an interest in developing, buying and recomending Chinese Military products. an example is the Latest chinese AWAC technology development which PAF undoubtedly would prefer to be a part off, i doubt the Chinese would mind such an agreement to develop the AWACs. PAF personal were Probably the only foreign military personnel that actually had access to J-10 R&D facilities in 1998 where the avionics and other J-10 related top secret Items were being developed and produced. since then PAF has worked very closely in the development of the J-10 sub systems ---- source AFM mag for June
Hi everyone. This is my first post on this forum. I am new to this website and the forum, but I must admit that I have come to rely on this website for all my defense subject related news.
Anyways, what I wanted to discuss was the possible force structure of PAF in 2015. Here is my two cents worth. Given the economic and political conditions of Pakistan in the present day and what it is likely to be in the next ten years I believe the following force structure is the most realistic and practical on for PAF.
MEDIUM TECH / INEXPENSIVE FIGHTER= JF-17
Starting in mid 2006 production of the first batch of 16 JF-17 fighters will begin in China. 8 of these are designated for the PAF. I believe Pakistan Aeronautical complex will commence the production of JF-17 beginning in 2007 at a rate of 12-20 aircraft per annum. I am going to be optimistic and assume the production if going to be 20 aircraft per annum. At this rate the first squadron of a standard complement of 24 fighters should be active at the beginning of 2008. By 2014-2015 period PAF will take the delivery of the final batch of JF-17 fighters. Personally I think is great for Pakistan as a whole because it contributes to Pakistan have indigenous Defense industry and towards the industrialization of Pakistan as whole. The problem with JF-17 is its radar; the GRIFO S-7 is just not sufficient. I believe a slightly downgraded version of the TYPE 1473/KLJ3 which is suppose to have a search distance 52~148km and track 8 targets simultaneously would be the more appropriate choice combined with the SD-10 MRAAM. SD-10 is believed to be comparable to AMRAAM-A, which is the earliest version of the American AMRAAM missile. TYPE 1473/KLJ3 is going to be fitted on the more advanced Chinese J-10 fighter. According to certain websites the downgraded version of the 1473/KLJ3 radar may be the option PAF might be going for. JF-17 is intended to replace Pakistan's fleet of J-6 and J-7 fighters.
FINAL STATUS = PAF wants 150 of these.
MORE EXPENSIVE / 4.5 GENERATION FRONTLINE FIGHTER
We all know that America is not a reliable ally. Even though currently the two nations are on good terms and Pakistan has been granted the status of Non-NATO ally. However, we have been here before. U.S.A is going to dump Pakistan again as soon as it's agenda is fulfilled in South Asia. There buying additional F-16, even if they are given for free is not a good idea. These may fix problems in the short run, but will create more problems in the long run. America can pull the plug at any time. Therefore I think it is far-gone conclusion the J-10 is going to be Pakistan's next frontline fighter. This is more than fine. According to Jane's and several leading Western defense websites, certain analysts consider J-10 to be in the 4.5 generation, the same as Rafale and EF-2000 fighter. U.S. Navy analysts believe that J-10 could be a serious challenge to FA-18 E/F fighters in terms of maneuverability. The only area which could be an issue is the avionics; however the Chinese are making the fighter available with a powerful set of avionics and new technologies that seem to approach the capabilities of the RBE-2 radar on the RAFALE. However, I could be entirely wrong. This is not the opinion of the analysts but my own personal opinion. Either way, J-10 is going to be a formidable war machine. The primary air to air weapon for J-10 is going to be the SD-10 MRAAM missile. I believe subsequent generations of SD-10 MRAAM will catch up with the Western and Russian MRAAMs. I believe the Chinese are already contemplating a more advanced version of SD-10 with ramjet power giving a 100 + KM range and more powerful avionics. But this is purely a rumor, however I think it is the only logical evolution of the SD-10. Either way JF-17 is not going to be sufficient to defend PAF airspace against hostile Indian SU-30MKI, LCA, and MCA fighters and attach aircraft. RAFALE and EF-2000 are too expensive both politically and economically. I believe the logical choice is J-10. I think the best thing to do is to order immediately 60 J-10 fighters as they become available to the market in the next 1-2 years and assemble under license another 90 in Pakistan. I believe Pakistan would need 6 squadrons of these fighters to replace it's fleet of Mirage-III/V fighters by the end of this decade. From order to delivery to PAAF and entering squadron service, I think we are looking at around 2009-2010 before the first batch of J-10 fighters are delivered.
FINAL STATUS = I believe PAF will need 150 of these to replace the vintage but upgraded Mirage III/V fighters.
INEXPENSIVE / MEDIUM TECH CLOSE AIR SUPPORT / ATTACK AIRCRAFT
I believe Pakistan also needs to replace its vintage Q-5/A-5 attack aircraft, which are based on the Mig-19 and employed in the close air support role with a brand new aircraft. Bear with me on this one. Using expensive fighters like J-10 or FC-1 in the risky role of attack and close air support does not make much sense. In this role you practically need a flying tank that can fly low and take heavy punishment from small arms fire and ground base FLAK. Something like a A-10 warthog, Su-25/28, or AMX. Pakistan has already taken delivery of 16 K-8 advanced jet trainers from China. These were developed between China and Pakistan in the late 80s and early 90s. Pakistan has a requirement for 100 of these and has either already started building them at PAC or will do so very soon. The best choice for Pakistan I think is to develop locally or with China a version of K-8 dedicated to the attack role. I think a slightly longer version that carriers more fuel with armor protection so it can take punishment from FLACK and still return home. This version could be fitted with simple radar perhaps even the Grif-7 which Pakistan already manufactures under license. The aircraft could be fitted with the Blue Sky laser targeting pod which is comparable to the U.S. LANTIRN navigation and targeting pods for carrying out precision strikes. The aircraft's weapons would include PL-9 for air defense and in the ground attack role would include air launched HJ-9A: Millimeter wave seeker guidance, fire-and-forget anti tank missile, HJ-9B: Semi-active laser beam riding seeker guidance, fire-and-forget anti tank missile, Type 250-3 anti-amour cluster bomb, Type 250-2/500-2/1500-2/3000-2 General Purpose Bomb ( the number in front of each bomb indicates it's weight in KGs), the latest versions of the Chinese LGBs (NORINCO revealed its laser-guided bomb (LGB) in the early 1990s, which is similar to the U.S. GBU-12 Paveway-II LGB), the 57 mm Type 57-1/-2, the 90 mm Type 90-1/-2, and the 130 mm Type 130-1/-2 rockets. The armored attack version of the K-8 Advanced jet trainer could be manufactured developed and manufactured locally with minimal help from China. I believe the best name for it would be A-8 Bahadur. The attack aircraft would probably cost around $10,000,000.
Final Status= I think PAF would need at least a 100 of these to replace the Q-5 attack aircraft.
AWACS ROLE / ANTI SUBMARINE ROLE / LIGHT TRANSPORT
PAF desperately needs AWACS aircraft, it also needs new Anti submarine warfare aircraft, and possibly light transport/ paratroop drop aircraft. It would be best if a single platform could fulfill all these requirements. I believe CN-235 platform manufactured by Indonesia would be the best candidate. It is already a popular aircraft used in the above stated roles the only role it is has not been adapted for is the AWACS role. However a study was carried to see if it could be fitted with the SWEDISH ERIEYE radar and it was deemed possible to do so. I propose that Pakistan acquire at least 12 CN-235 MPA anti submarine warfare/ surface warfare aircraft, 6 AWACS aircraft with ERIEYE radar developed by Ericsson Microwave Systems and is capable of 360° detection and tracking of air and sea targets over the horizon. The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km, and at least 20-25 light transport aircraft for Special Forces and basic transport need. That is a total of 50+ aircraft. Pakistan can manufacture these under license also. Turkey was allowed to do so between 1992 and 1998 for 50 aircraft.
PAF FINAL STATUS
J-10 = 150 (replacing the Mirage III/V fleet)
JF-17 = 150 (replacing the J-6/J-7 fleet)
A-8 = 100 (replacing the A-5 in the attack and close air support role)
TOTAL = 400
K-8 = 100 (Advanced jet trainer in service with PAF and being manufactured at PAC)
CN-235 AWACS = 6 (with ERIEYE RADAR)
CN-235 MPA = 12 (needed to replace the older P3-C ORIONS in the antisubmarine role)
CN-235 light transport = 25 (needed to complement C-130 Hercules aircraft)
I believe these numbers are achievable, perhaps not necessarily by 2015 but I think it can be done by 2015-2020 period. I believe these numbers and types of aircraft are practical give the needs of PAF and the current and future expected economic conditions of Pakistan.
Anyways, what I wanted to discuss was the possible force structure of PAF in 2015. Here is my two cents worth. Given the economic and political conditions of Pakistan in the present day and what it is likely to be in the next ten years I believe the following force structure is the most realistic and practical on for PAF.
MEDIUM TECH / INEXPENSIVE FIGHTER= JF-17
Starting in mid 2006 production of the first batch of 16 JF-17 fighters will begin in China. 8 of these are designated for the PAF. I believe Pakistan Aeronautical complex will commence the production of JF-17 beginning in 2007 at a rate of 12-20 aircraft per annum. I am going to be optimistic and assume the production if going to be 20 aircraft per annum. At this rate the first squadron of a standard complement of 24 fighters should be active at the beginning of 2008. By 2014-2015 period PAF will take the delivery of the final batch of JF-17 fighters. Personally I think is great for Pakistan as a whole because it contributes to Pakistan have indigenous Defense industry and towards the industrialization of Pakistan as whole. The problem with JF-17 is its radar; the GRIFO S-7 is just not sufficient. I believe a slightly downgraded version of the TYPE 1473/KLJ3 which is suppose to have a search distance 52~148km and track 8 targets simultaneously would be the more appropriate choice combined with the SD-10 MRAAM. SD-10 is believed to be comparable to AMRAAM-A, which is the earliest version of the American AMRAAM missile. TYPE 1473/KLJ3 is going to be fitted on the more advanced Chinese J-10 fighter. According to certain websites the downgraded version of the 1473/KLJ3 radar may be the option PAF might be going for. JF-17 is intended to replace Pakistan's fleet of J-6 and J-7 fighters.
FINAL STATUS = PAF wants 150 of these.
MORE EXPENSIVE / 4.5 GENERATION FRONTLINE FIGHTER
We all know that America is not a reliable ally. Even though currently the two nations are on good terms and Pakistan has been granted the status of Non-NATO ally. However, we have been here before. U.S.A is going to dump Pakistan again as soon as it's agenda is fulfilled in South Asia. There buying additional F-16, even if they are given for free is not a good idea. These may fix problems in the short run, but will create more problems in the long run. America can pull the plug at any time. Therefore I think it is far-gone conclusion the J-10 is going to be Pakistan's next frontline fighter. This is more than fine. According to Jane's and several leading Western defense websites, certain analysts consider J-10 to be in the 4.5 generation, the same as Rafale and EF-2000 fighter. U.S. Navy analysts believe that J-10 could be a serious challenge to FA-18 E/F fighters in terms of maneuverability. The only area which could be an issue is the avionics; however the Chinese are making the fighter available with a powerful set of avionics and new technologies that seem to approach the capabilities of the RBE-2 radar on the RAFALE. However, I could be entirely wrong. This is not the opinion of the analysts but my own personal opinion. Either way, J-10 is going to be a formidable war machine. The primary air to air weapon for J-10 is going to be the SD-10 MRAAM missile. I believe subsequent generations of SD-10 MRAAM will catch up with the Western and Russian MRAAMs. I believe the Chinese are already contemplating a more advanced version of SD-10 with ramjet power giving a 100 + KM range and more powerful avionics. But this is purely a rumor, however I think it is the only logical evolution of the SD-10. Either way JF-17 is not going to be sufficient to defend PAF airspace against hostile Indian SU-30MKI, LCA, and MCA fighters and attach aircraft. RAFALE and EF-2000 are too expensive both politically and economically. I believe the logical choice is J-10. I think the best thing to do is to order immediately 60 J-10 fighters as they become available to the market in the next 1-2 years and assemble under license another 90 in Pakistan. I believe Pakistan would need 6 squadrons of these fighters to replace it's fleet of Mirage-III/V fighters by the end of this decade. From order to delivery to PAAF and entering squadron service, I think we are looking at around 2009-2010 before the first batch of J-10 fighters are delivered.
FINAL STATUS = I believe PAF will need 150 of these to replace the vintage but upgraded Mirage III/V fighters.
INEXPENSIVE / MEDIUM TECH CLOSE AIR SUPPORT / ATTACK AIRCRAFT
I believe Pakistan also needs to replace its vintage Q-5/A-5 attack aircraft, which are based on the Mig-19 and employed in the close air support role with a brand new aircraft. Bear with me on this one. Using expensive fighters like J-10 or FC-1 in the risky role of attack and close air support does not make much sense. In this role you practically need a flying tank that can fly low and take heavy punishment from small arms fire and ground base FLAK. Something like a A-10 warthog, Su-25/28, or AMX. Pakistan has already taken delivery of 16 K-8 advanced jet trainers from China. These were developed between China and Pakistan in the late 80s and early 90s. Pakistan has a requirement for 100 of these and has either already started building them at PAC or will do so very soon. The best choice for Pakistan I think is to develop locally or with China a version of K-8 dedicated to the attack role. I think a slightly longer version that carriers more fuel with armor protection so it can take punishment from FLACK and still return home. This version could be fitted with simple radar perhaps even the Grif-7 which Pakistan already manufactures under license. The aircraft could be fitted with the Blue Sky laser targeting pod which is comparable to the U.S. LANTIRN navigation and targeting pods for carrying out precision strikes. The aircraft's weapons would include PL-9 for air defense and in the ground attack role would include air launched HJ-9A: Millimeter wave seeker guidance, fire-and-forget anti tank missile, HJ-9B: Semi-active laser beam riding seeker guidance, fire-and-forget anti tank missile, Type 250-3 anti-amour cluster bomb, Type 250-2/500-2/1500-2/3000-2 General Purpose Bomb ( the number in front of each bomb indicates it's weight in KGs), the latest versions of the Chinese LGBs (NORINCO revealed its laser-guided bomb (LGB) in the early 1990s, which is similar to the U.S. GBU-12 Paveway-II LGB), the 57 mm Type 57-1/-2, the 90 mm Type 90-1/-2, and the 130 mm Type 130-1/-2 rockets. The armored attack version of the K-8 Advanced jet trainer could be manufactured developed and manufactured locally with minimal help from China. I believe the best name for it would be A-8 Bahadur. The attack aircraft would probably cost around $10,000,000.
Final Status= I think PAF would need at least a 100 of these to replace the Q-5 attack aircraft.
AWACS ROLE / ANTI SUBMARINE ROLE / LIGHT TRANSPORT
PAF desperately needs AWACS aircraft, it also needs new Anti submarine warfare aircraft, and possibly light transport/ paratroop drop aircraft. It would be best if a single platform could fulfill all these requirements. I believe CN-235 platform manufactured by Indonesia would be the best candidate. It is already a popular aircraft used in the above stated roles the only role it is has not been adapted for is the AWACS role. However a study was carried to see if it could be fitted with the SWEDISH ERIEYE radar and it was deemed possible to do so. I propose that Pakistan acquire at least 12 CN-235 MPA anti submarine warfare/ surface warfare aircraft, 6 AWACS aircraft with ERIEYE radar developed by Ericsson Microwave Systems and is capable of 360° detection and tracking of air and sea targets over the horizon. The instrumented range is 450km and a typical detection range against a fighter aircraft size target is in excess of 350km, and at least 20-25 light transport aircraft for Special Forces and basic transport need. That is a total of 50+ aircraft. Pakistan can manufacture these under license also. Turkey was allowed to do so between 1992 and 1998 for 50 aircraft.
PAF FINAL STATUS
J-10 = 150 (replacing the Mirage III/V fleet)
JF-17 = 150 (replacing the J-6/J-7 fleet)
A-8 = 100 (replacing the A-5 in the attack and close air support role)
TOTAL = 400
K-8 = 100 (Advanced jet trainer in service with PAF and being manufactured at PAC)
CN-235 AWACS = 6 (with ERIEYE RADAR)
CN-235 MPA = 12 (needed to replace the older P3-C ORIONS in the antisubmarine role)
CN-235 light transport = 25 (needed to complement C-130 Hercules aircraft)
I believe these numbers are achievable, perhaps not necessarily by 2015 but I think it can be done by 2015-2020 period. I believe these numbers and types of aircraft are practical give the needs of PAF and the current and future expected economic conditions of Pakistan.
Ethen, welcome and thanks for such a detailed analsys. Good candidate for DB project. 
Check this out Ethen, similar topic:
http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=443
Check this out Ethen, similar topic:
http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=443
lalith prasad
Banned Member
it would be better if pakistan goes for chinese jh7flying leopord attack aircraft it can carry a weapon load of 6.5 tons and has a combat radius of 1850 kms can also be used for naval strike.it is a medium tech aircraft.
any links, specs or pics re this plane that you can show to everyone else?lalith prasad said:
Actually the JH-7 was evaluated as an A-5 replacement but the engine performance was not upto par.The new JH-7A however may be a good candidate for a strike aircraft replacement.It has better uprated engines, increased payload, and improved avionics over the original JH-7.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Ethan, The PAF air chief marshall has publicly stated that Pakistan want's additional F-16's and has placed an order for a further 18, plus MLU kits for it's current F-16's to bring it's entire fleet up to a similar standard. He has also stated (during the same interview, in AirForces Monthly November 2004) that Pakistan would eventually like to operate a fleet of around 70 late generation F-16's, though funding may preclude the purchase of new build F-16's, in which case the PAF would seek to acquire additional second hand examples.
Clearly the PAF desires a dual western/chinese force in order to avoid a logistical problem with the entire force. This will most likely be based on a force comprising F-16/JF-17. Bear in mind, there's absolutely no reason that China couldn't adopt the same attitude as the USA in terms of supplying equipment, spare parts etc to Pakistan should some future problem occur... Where would Pakistan be then, if it operated a soley chinese aircraft based force structure?
I think the more sensible option is the dual Chinese/Western aircraft based force structure, the PAF is actively trying to develop at present. You are quite correct in other areas though. The PAF urgently requires an AWACS and BVR air to air missile capability. An air to air refuelling capability (possibly provided by existing C-130 Hercules, in a role similar to that employed by the US Marine Corps) would really round out the PAF force structure...
Clearly the PAF desires a dual western/chinese force in order to avoid a logistical problem with the entire force. This will most likely be based on a force comprising F-16/JF-17. Bear in mind, there's absolutely no reason that China couldn't adopt the same attitude as the USA in terms of supplying equipment, spare parts etc to Pakistan should some future problem occur... Where would Pakistan be then, if it operated a soley chinese aircraft based force structure?
I think the more sensible option is the dual Chinese/Western aircraft based force structure, the PAF is actively trying to develop at present. You are quite correct in other areas though. The PAF urgently requires an AWACS and BVR air to air missile capability. An air to air refuelling capability (possibly provided by existing C-130 Hercules, in a role similar to that employed by the US Marine Corps) would really round out the PAF force structure...
dabrownguy
New Member
Why does Pakistan love single engine aircraft?
Lalith:
As Umair pointed out, PAF had contemplated getting the JH-7 aircraft but it had too many problems. Second, it is not a cheap aircraft compared to a combat version of K-8 trainer. Third, JH-7A is actually an aircraft intended for an entrirely different role, it is designed for deep penetration. It is comparable to Su-24 and Tornado IDS, GR.3 version.
Where as a locally developed version of K-8 trainer, which is already being produced at PAC as the K-8 trainer along with Grifo 7 radar (Grifo S7 is the more advanced version of this type of Italian radar) then Pakistan can design an attack aircraft that is based on what is already available at home, along with some help from China in such areas as the BLUE SKY laser targeting pod to carry laser guided bombs and missiles.
This type of aircraft can be developed with minimum amount of investment in a very short period of time. If they started today I am sure it can be ready in another two to three years for serial production if not sooner. This attack aircraft is more in the range of attack aircrafts like the A-10 Warthog, Russian Su-25/28, Brazilian/Italian AMX light Bomber, and the South Korean A-50. Above all this aircraft would be manufacuted locally as opposed to being acquired from overseas and it would make Pakistan less dependent on foreign partners.
As Umair pointed out, PAF had contemplated getting the JH-7 aircraft but it had too many problems. Second, it is not a cheap aircraft compared to a combat version of K-8 trainer. Third, JH-7A is actually an aircraft intended for an entrirely different role, it is designed for deep penetration. It is comparable to Su-24 and Tornado IDS, GR.3 version.
Where as a locally developed version of K-8 trainer, which is already being produced at PAC as the K-8 trainer along with Grifo 7 radar (Grifo S7 is the more advanced version of this type of Italian radar) then Pakistan can design an attack aircraft that is based on what is already available at home, along with some help from China in such areas as the BLUE SKY laser targeting pod to carry laser guided bombs and missiles.
This type of aircraft can be developed with minimum amount of investment in a very short period of time. If they started today I am sure it can be ready in another two to three years for serial production if not sooner. This attack aircraft is more in the range of attack aircrafts like the A-10 Warthog, Russian Su-25/28, Brazilian/Italian AMX light Bomber, and the South Korean A-50. Above all this aircraft would be manufacuted locally as opposed to being acquired from overseas and it would make Pakistan less dependent on foreign partners.
Aussie Digger:
The aim of modernization of Pakistani airforce it to not only have an airforce that is capable of defending the homeland against possible threats but also to be as much as self reliant as possible so that Washington or Beijing do not dictate Pakistan's future. America is not a very reliable ally and therefore I'd rather use every dollar to acquire J-10 fighter which more modern than F-16, the only issue is avionics.
The F-16s in service with PAF are the earliest variants and dont even have BVR capability. Currently the Indian Mig-29s have BVR capability along with the AA-12 (Russian equivalent of American AMRAAM), also include the 4.5 generation Indian Su-30MKI fighter, which is a formidabe weapons platform and can go against the best fithers head on with the possible exception of F-22. But then again it doesnt have to go against F-22.
Also remember, even the MLU for F-16 will most likely be a Block-40 configuration and that is all. Either way, withink a decade these aircraft will need to be replaced also. WHy go for something that is already being replaced. If Pakistan wants additional F-16s then it always aquire 25 or so from Belgium like U.A.E. The issue is to acquire one platform that can serve till around 2025-2030 period. J-10 unlike the F-16 is a semi stealth design. Above all, the Chinese have fixed the problems with their engines and the fighter will not be entering production with a Russian AL-31F engine but a rather a Chinese built engine, I believe it is the WS-10A engine which is a 13,200kg class engie. This engine will be part of the Chinese upgrade of their Su-27/J-11 fighters, replacing the Russian engine.
J-10 with mostly indigineous Chinese content would be a better choice for Pakistan as China is highly unlikely to place any kind of embargo on Pakistan in any forseeable future. Above all if PAF can negotiate a local assembly along with manufacturing of possibly certain avionics it would a great boost for Pakistani defence industry.
The aim of modernization of Pakistani airforce it to not only have an airforce that is capable of defending the homeland against possible threats but also to be as much as self reliant as possible so that Washington or Beijing do not dictate Pakistan's future. America is not a very reliable ally and therefore I'd rather use every dollar to acquire J-10 fighter which more modern than F-16, the only issue is avionics.
The F-16s in service with PAF are the earliest variants and dont even have BVR capability. Currently the Indian Mig-29s have BVR capability along with the AA-12 (Russian equivalent of American AMRAAM), also include the 4.5 generation Indian Su-30MKI fighter, which is a formidabe weapons platform and can go against the best fithers head on with the possible exception of F-22. But then again it doesnt have to go against F-22.
Also remember, even the MLU for F-16 will most likely be a Block-40 configuration and that is all. Either way, withink a decade these aircraft will need to be replaced also. WHy go for something that is already being replaced. If Pakistan wants additional F-16s then it always aquire 25 or so from Belgium like U.A.E. The issue is to acquire one platform that can serve till around 2025-2030 period. J-10 unlike the F-16 is a semi stealth design. Above all, the Chinese have fixed the problems with their engines and the fighter will not be entering production with a Russian AL-31F engine but a rather a Chinese built engine, I believe it is the WS-10A engine which is a 13,200kg class engie. This engine will be part of the Chinese upgrade of their Su-27/J-11 fighters, replacing the Russian engine.
J-10 with mostly indigineous Chinese content would be a better choice for Pakistan as China is highly unlikely to place any kind of embargo on Pakistan in any forseeable future. Above all if PAF can negotiate a local assembly along with manufacturing of possibly certain avionics it would a great boost for Pakistani defence industry.
Ethan, would you mind trying to break up your responses into seperate paragraphs etc...
it makes them easier to read for everyone.
thx. gf
it makes them easier to read for everyone.
thx. gf
Ethan = "Also remember, even the MLU for F-16 will most likely be a Block-40 configuration and that is all."
block 40 is very old subsequent upgrades and evolution of technology would make it harder to implement block 40 then block 50, if PAF is desinging its own upgrades ie dictateing what it wants then the MLU would end up being called Block 5X etc. so there is no way anyone can tell what is going to be installed in PAF Vipers after the MLU. Paf may have a customised EW system, very specific, it may have PAF Satandard Wepons intigrated into the AC.
Aussie = "there's absolutely no reason that China couldn't adopt the same attitude as the USA in terms of supplying equipment, spare parts etc to Pakistan should some future problem occur..."
A.. china would never do that. HIstory being an indicator, and pakistan being a strategic partner. B.. China supplies Technology (to Pakistan) with most of its major equipment. the J-10 new Avionics is an example... PAF helped design the Avionic package for the J-10, long before J-10 was revealed (officially)to the world (Source AFM)
block 40 is very old subsequent upgrades and evolution of technology would make it harder to implement block 40 then block 50, if PAF is desinging its own upgrades ie dictateing what it wants then the MLU would end up being called Block 5X etc. so there is no way anyone can tell what is going to be installed in PAF Vipers after the MLU. Paf may have a customised EW system, very specific, it may have PAF Satandard Wepons intigrated into the AC.
Aussie = "there's absolutely no reason that China couldn't adopt the same attitude as the USA in terms of supplying equipment, spare parts etc to Pakistan should some future problem occur..."
A.. china would never do that. HIstory being an indicator, and pakistan being a strategic partner. B.. China supplies Technology (to Pakistan) with most of its major equipment. the J-10 new Avionics is an example... PAF helped design the Avionic package for the J-10, long before J-10 was revealed (officially)to the world (Source AFM)
Adsh
I agree with you that China will not adapt the same attitude as USA. However, the issue is also money, and the aircraft being available in sufficent numbers. I am aware of the PAF chief expressing his desire to obtain a fleet of 70 F-16s however the Amerians denied his request. The best PAF will get is an additional 18 F-16s to the 32 or so that Pakistan has left and and MLU of the those that are in the inventory.
Remember, PAFs financial resources are limited there for acquiring Western Aircraft in large number or even any relevant numbers is extgremely draining on it's limited funds. Either way American is just not reliable preriod. The acquisition of EF-2000 or Rafale again is an issue simply because these are too expensive and France like USA could place an embargo on Pakistan with pressure from India or worse yet, in the time of war it could refuse to supply the spare parts. That is why it is important to manufacture any number of new figthers in sufficent number under licence or at atleast have them assembled in Pakistan along with manufacturing of certain parts.
There also important advantages to manufacturing fighters under licence or assembling them. First of all this creates jobs at home, very hich tech jobs that is. Transfer of important military technologies could be made to the commercial side and contribute to the over all industrialization of Pakistan. Look at the example of Augusta 90B. Pakistan did it succcesfullly, and I am sure the next generation of Pakistani subs may very well be designed locally with certain foreign parts.
Lets take the example of the Pakistani Army, it started out with first basic assembly of taksn, then moved on to manufacturing certain parts under licence, then to actually developing it's own upgrade packages, to finally it is at a stage where it co-developed the MBT-2000 jointly with China and is manufacturing it locally, hence giving it certain freedom from foreign suppliers.
I believe the PAF is on the same path, which perfectly makes sense.
UMAIR
I actually do think that the newer JH-7A would be a handsome addition in the long range bomber/strike role for the PAF. It is relatively speaking less expenseive than the alternatives and is designed for low level flying so it can evade the radar screens.
JH-7A, which features more advanced avionics and weapon suites based on both Russian and domestic technologies including the new multi-mode JL-10A PD fire-control radar, revised fly-by-wire (FBW), and 11 stores stations to carry guided ground attack weapons. Other modifications include removing the wing fences, replacing the single underbelly fin with two fins, and a new one-piece windshield. JL-10A PD fire-control radar with better reliability and longer detect range. The front-seat pilot cockpit is fitted with a HK-13-03G head-up display (HUD), two black-white multi-function displays (MFDs) and one colour MFD. The fire-control system for the YJ-8K anti-ship missile is fitted in the rear-seat (weapon operator) cockpit. Combat data is processed by the mission computer through the Mil1553B digital databus.
Flight control systems include the KF-1 digital fly-by-wire (FBW), 8145 air-data computer, WG-5A radio altimeter, HG-563GB INS/GPS navigation system, the Type 210 Doppler navigation system, HZX-1B stabilising system, and microwave landing assistance system.
In ground attack role it can carry a variety of laser guided bombs and free fall bombs.
HOWEVER, if Pakistan can acquire the new Brazilian AV/MT-300 air launched cruise missile which has a range of 300 km and carries a 200 KG warhead and have it integrated with the JH-7A bombers, it could be a great combination. If Pakistan can find the resources to have 50 of the JH-7A fighter bombers in it's inventory along with this cruise missile which will be available to the market very soon at a cost of $800,000 a piece, this could give PAF a great strike capability. Hell if Pakistan could join Brazil in developing this weapon system along with a variety of others it would be a great boost.
Brazil is appparently working on some very interesting platforms, It could provide great help to PAF not only in missiles and other weapons platforms but also in aerospace, such as the area of satellites.
I agree with you that China will not adapt the same attitude as USA. However, the issue is also money, and the aircraft being available in sufficent numbers. I am aware of the PAF chief expressing his desire to obtain a fleet of 70 F-16s however the Amerians denied his request. The best PAF will get is an additional 18 F-16s to the 32 or so that Pakistan has left and and MLU of the those that are in the inventory.
Remember, PAFs financial resources are limited there for acquiring Western Aircraft in large number or even any relevant numbers is extgremely draining on it's limited funds. Either way American is just not reliable preriod. The acquisition of EF-2000 or Rafale again is an issue simply because these are too expensive and France like USA could place an embargo on Pakistan with pressure from India or worse yet, in the time of war it could refuse to supply the spare parts. That is why it is important to manufacture any number of new figthers in sufficent number under licence or at atleast have them assembled in Pakistan along with manufacturing of certain parts.
There also important advantages to manufacturing fighters under licence or assembling them. First of all this creates jobs at home, very hich tech jobs that is. Transfer of important military technologies could be made to the commercial side and contribute to the over all industrialization of Pakistan. Look at the example of Augusta 90B. Pakistan did it succcesfullly, and I am sure the next generation of Pakistani subs may very well be designed locally with certain foreign parts.
Lets take the example of the Pakistani Army, it started out with first basic assembly of taksn, then moved on to manufacturing certain parts under licence, then to actually developing it's own upgrade packages, to finally it is at a stage where it co-developed the MBT-2000 jointly with China and is manufacturing it locally, hence giving it certain freedom from foreign suppliers.
I believe the PAF is on the same path, which perfectly makes sense.
UMAIR
I actually do think that the newer JH-7A would be a handsome addition in the long range bomber/strike role for the PAF. It is relatively speaking less expenseive than the alternatives and is designed for low level flying so it can evade the radar screens.
JH-7A, which features more advanced avionics and weapon suites based on both Russian and domestic technologies including the new multi-mode JL-10A PD fire-control radar, revised fly-by-wire (FBW), and 11 stores stations to carry guided ground attack weapons. Other modifications include removing the wing fences, replacing the single underbelly fin with two fins, and a new one-piece windshield. JL-10A PD fire-control radar with better reliability and longer detect range. The front-seat pilot cockpit is fitted with a HK-13-03G head-up display (HUD), two black-white multi-function displays (MFDs) and one colour MFD. The fire-control system for the YJ-8K anti-ship missile is fitted in the rear-seat (weapon operator) cockpit. Combat data is processed by the mission computer through the Mil1553B digital databus.
Flight control systems include the KF-1 digital fly-by-wire (FBW), 8145 air-data computer, WG-5A radio altimeter, HG-563GB INS/GPS navigation system, the Type 210 Doppler navigation system, HZX-1B stabilising system, and microwave landing assistance system.
In ground attack role it can carry a variety of laser guided bombs and free fall bombs.
HOWEVER, if Pakistan can acquire the new Brazilian AV/MT-300 air launched cruise missile which has a range of 300 km and carries a 200 KG warhead and have it integrated with the JH-7A bombers, it could be a great combination. If Pakistan can find the resources to have 50 of the JH-7A fighter bombers in it's inventory along with this cruise missile which will be available to the market very soon at a cost of $800,000 a piece, this could give PAF a great strike capability. Hell if Pakistan could join Brazil in developing this weapon system along with a variety of others it would be a great boost.
Brazil is appparently working on some very interesting platforms, It could provide great help to PAF not only in missiles and other weapons platforms but also in aerospace, such as the area of satellites.
lalith prasad
Banned Member
india will be realy pissed off if brazil sells any defence technology to pakistan india ,south africa and brazil have signed a trilateral agreement for strategic cooperation which also envisages joint development of defence technologies(brazil proposed development of a regional transport aircraft with india and south africa also brazilian erj145 has been selected as the platform for the indian awacs.).
Yep, Brazil is relying on India for many of the technical needs for their space program and there has been great push from both sides for joint efforts in vital sectors such as military, space exploration and commerce. But on the other hand India has herself offered assistance to Pak in space explorations and has even offered to put the upcoming Pak satellite into orbit. India does have the best record and provides the most cost effective solutinos for putting most types of satellites into orbit.
Anyway back to topic, I really can't predict what the PAF would look like 11 years from now as there are just too many volatile variables coming into the equation.
Anyway back to topic, I really can't predict what the PAF would look like 11 years from now as there are just too many volatile variables coming into the equation.
