I am sticking to the topic. Just pointing out some lapses in geographics knowledge here and there in response to previous post. Also, since The Netherlands will hold the Presidency of the European Union (EU) from 1 July to 31 December 2004, it may be relevant w.r.t. EU stance on arms sales to Pakistan. See also: http://defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3601
PAF IN 2015
- Thread starter jastreb
- Start date
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Ethan according to the reports I've seen, the only recent requests made by Pakistan to the US for F-16's are the widely known requests for 18 new build F-16's and MLU kits for it's existing F-16's, which ARE still being considered, though the recent election, probably put the decision date off for a bit.
I have not seen or heard of any official requests for 70 new aircraft, apart from the Peace Gate III and IV programs which were embargoed in the early 90's. due to the Pressler Amendment to the US's Foreign Assistance Act which effectively embargoed the 71 F-16's ordered (and partially paid for) by Pakistan.
The current PAF Air chief Marshal has recently stated publicly that PAF would LIKE to acquire up to 70 F-16's, but this is dependant on US approval and the funding available for new acquisitions. the USA has stated recently that Pakistan is basically back in the good books, due to it's support in the "War on Terror" and F-16 sales are back "on the cards", hence the consideration currently being given to the 18 new fighters and MLU kits.
My previous statement is therefore perfectly valid, Ethan, unless you can show some proof that these official statements have been retracted or changed? Despite YOUR wishlist, the PAF wants and is actively seeking a combined US/Chinese structured Air Force...
I have not seen or heard of any official requests for 70 new aircraft, apart from the Peace Gate III and IV programs which were embargoed in the early 90's. due to the Pressler Amendment to the US's Foreign Assistance Act which effectively embargoed the 71 F-16's ordered (and partially paid for) by Pakistan.
The current PAF Air chief Marshal has recently stated publicly that PAF would LIKE to acquire up to 70 F-16's, but this is dependant on US approval and the funding available for new acquisitions. the USA has stated recently that Pakistan is basically back in the good books, due to it's support in the "War on Terror" and F-16 sales are back "on the cards", hence the consideration currently being given to the 18 new fighters and MLU kits.
My previous statement is therefore perfectly valid, Ethan, unless you can show some proof that these official statements have been retracted or changed? Despite YOUR wishlist, the PAF wants and is actively seeking a combined US/Chinese structured Air Force...
The whole point here is that PAF is not going for Gripens & it seems that USA is willing to sell F-16s.
So y there is so much of a debate here, baically u all r speekin same things but feel that other guy is wrong. lols come back to the technical & strategic side of the discussion. It gets boring.
So y there is so much of a debate here, baically u all r speekin same things but feel that other guy is wrong. lols come back to the technical & strategic side of the discussion. It gets boring.
The question of what to buy is not important as money and political problems arrise in the equation, but what is available for pakistan from the countries willing to sell on the limited pakistani budget.
The F16 sale will more than likely go through due to the Republican/Bush victory and their return to power and there reliance on pakistan for there war on terror. Sales of various equipment has commenced and the case for pakistan being supplied with F16,s with AMRAAM has been accepted due to the indian forces inducting highly capable SU30,s.
The future with no doubt will see the PAF being formed with a backbone of JF17,s and J10,s while F16,s and possibly one other western fighter also being present.
The Mirage2000 issue is still open but depending on a sale from india which may take on another 124. l don,t think the pakistanis want the M2000 if it is present in large numbers in the indian air force. Also if the indians turn it down, the french would welcome a sale from the pakistanis.
One thing is for certain, that any planes to be inducted in the PAF will have a BVR capability otherwise they would be useless against the IAF.
160 JF17,s (definatley)
100 J10,s ( more than likely)
50/80 F16,s ( strong possibility)
40/60 Mirage2000,s or Gripens ( ? )
upgraded ukranian SU27,s ( ? )
The F16 sale will more than likely go through due to the Republican/Bush victory and their return to power and there reliance on pakistan for there war on terror. Sales of various equipment has commenced and the case for pakistan being supplied with F16,s with AMRAAM has been accepted due to the indian forces inducting highly capable SU30,s.
The future with no doubt will see the PAF being formed with a backbone of JF17,s and J10,s while F16,s and possibly one other western fighter also being present.
The Mirage2000 issue is still open but depending on a sale from india which may take on another 124. l don,t think the pakistanis want the M2000 if it is present in large numbers in the indian air force. Also if the indians turn it down, the french would welcome a sale from the pakistanis.
One thing is for certain, that any planes to be inducted in the PAF will have a BVR capability otherwise they would be useless against the IAF.
160 JF17,s (definatley)
100 J10,s ( more than likely)
50/80 F16,s ( strong possibility)
40/60 Mirage2000,s or Gripens ( ? )
upgraded ukranian SU27,s ( ? )
pitbull911
New Member
75 rafale c/d
50 f16 mlu
250 jf17
124 j10
5 airbus a330 a2a refulers
5 AWACS
possibly newer f16 blk 50 or blk 60 may also be purchased.
pakistan has already requested this to the usa.
50 f16 mlu
250 jf17
124 j10
5 airbus a330 a2a refulers
5 AWACS
possibly newer f16 blk 50 or blk 60 may also be purchased.
pakistan has already requested this to the usa.
I used to think along the same lines as you about the PAF concentrating all resources on the JF-17 you know. I mean it could produce something like:Ethan said:
100 JF-17s ( Stealth features and all, comparable to Mig-29M or F-16 I)
200 JF-17s ( just your regular batch thank you)
I mean the aircraft has loads of potential so you could just keep the platform common and upgrade specific numbers to different technology levels depending on resources and requirements. But with all the news feed and talk ive been hearin its obvious that the PAF wants a cutting edge fighter, unique from the rest of the common hoard and the star of the airforce. Sounds kinda stupid but youll need the psycological value.
The JF-17 production rates are supposed to be 12 a year and i dont think thtll be changing even after 2010 due to a lot of resources in china being allocated to other projects. Of course we could start domestic production and push it up to the number you mentioned but i seriously doubt wether Pakistan might want to do that given its complexities and ,currently, little value. We refused the K-8 production line rmmbr?
The only other derivative of the J-10 is the ground attack version and i dont think theres going to be a new derivative entering service till 2014~16.
Id rather take the PAF of 2015 to be like:
70 J-10s x 5 sqs
40 J-11s x 3 sqs
120 Jf-17s
120 J-7 FS (/bvr version)
25 Long/Medium range SAMs (HQ-10s, HQ-15s, SA-12)
10 FT-2000s
30 Low level SAMs (HQ-7, HQ-17)
HQ-10 and 15s being Sa-10 copies and ft-2000 types converted to SA-10 role
HQ-7 and HQ-17 being crotales and SA-15s
pitbull911
New Member
no srirangan. i think that the list i have posted is quiet acheivable for paf in the next couple of years.
I think i could turn pitbulls list into something like:
PAF 2015
60 Rafales
60 J-10s
120 JF-17s
100 Upgraded Mirages or F-7s
6 Boeing Refuellers
7 eyerie AEW
PAF 2015
60 Rafales
60 J-10s
120 JF-17s
100 Upgraded Mirages or F-7s
6 Boeing Refuellers
7 eyerie AEW
Getting 75 rafale is going to be difficult.Even if french agree selling rafale to PAF,75 is going to be a costly affair for pakistan.
If production of JF-17 begins next year then Pak or china needs to produce 25 fighters per year for getting 250 by 2015.
I see 150 to 200 as a possibility but 250 may not be possible.
In my opinion
30 Rafale or 50 gripen
150-170 Jf-17
75 J-10
5 air to air refuellers
5 AWACS
I am only mentioning the inductions of frontline fighter not the whole inventory of PAF.
Plus PAF will need many things SAM's,AAM,Air-to Surface weapons,Trainer aircraft,EW aircraft,UAV,Recon planes etc the list goes on which are also important.
That an over ambitious statement.
The Pakistan's defence buget is around 3 billion. I seriously doubt it will be able to afford 75 Rafale in the near future as it is one of the most costly platform in existance today. The price tag is about 75 million a piece I believe, not to mention the cost of logistics.. The wish list simply is not realistic considering Pakistan's economy(PPP:384 billion) and defence spending.
No offense to anyone here but some of you might be in need of a wake up call.
No offense to anyone here but some of you might be in need of a wake up call.
The product price of Rafale is not the problem. Considering the price PAF can buy 60 to 70 Rafales by 2k15 but its the cost of maintainance PAF wants to avoid. For same reason Mirage2000-5 have been held back on the list by PAF.
F-16s n Gripen r the only two jets on PAF list that come cheap n maintainance doesnt cost much.
If u induct any jet in PAF, pleae also consider the maintainance cost.
PAF is seriously considering J-10 & may also buy Chinese 5th Generation Fighter J-XX (or J-12,13,14) which is being built in competetion to JSF. It will be out by 2012 to 2015. PAF might have them by 2016 to 2020.
F-16s n Gripen r the only two jets on PAF list that come cheap n maintainance doesnt cost much.
If u induct any jet in PAF, pleae also consider the maintainance cost.
PAF is seriously considering J-10 & may also buy Chinese 5th Generation Fighter J-XX (or J-12,13,14) which is being built in competetion to JSF. It will be out by 2012 to 2015. PAF might have them by 2016 to 2020.
[Admin Edited: Jacob, being new and not knowing the rules is understandable but that doesn't give you the right to be stupid. Once your post is edited, it means its gone and should not be reposted again but apparently you do not understand that. This topic is what it says "PAF in 2015" not PAF vs IAF!!! Please read this:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35193#35193 ]
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=35193#35193 ]
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Please do not bring India into this topic. If you would like to discuss the future of IAF you are welcome to open a new thread. Also when you claim all the items you posted are facts make sure they are backed up by official source, otherwise they will be taken as another wish list.
I do not wish the see a thread on PAF turning into Indo vs Pak scenario, same goes the other way around. Please disregard Jacob's post and carry on with discussion.
*******************
Please do not bring India into this topic. If you would like to discuss the future of IAF you are welcome to open a new thread. Also when you claim all the items you posted are facts make sure they are backed up by official source, otherwise they will be taken as another wish list.
I do not wish the see a thread on PAF turning into Indo vs Pak scenario, same goes the other way around. Please disregard Jacob's post and carry on with discussion.
*******************
True Path.But, this is just for the admin,maintainence and other micsellaneous stuff.Procurement budgets for Pakistan's armed forces are not included in the national budget figures.
PAF can spend as of the moment $3 billion immediately on the purchase of new aircraft(this is a fighter only figure).Reason being that the PAF over the last two decades has not used it's share of the procurment budgets(sanctions and all) and all that money has accumulated to a total figure of about $6 billion which it (now that the sanctions are off) is looking to spend on the best available platforms and weapons and the best maximum utilisation of it's resources in hands now(one of the reasons to go for the Falcons is that a part of their cost may be covered by US mil assistance, therefore leaving more for other procurements).
Fc-1 has US technology - a claim
Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily
November 8, 2004
Advanced Chinese And Pakistani Fighter Utilizes Illegally- Or Accidentally-Transferred Sensitive US Technology
Exclusive. From GIS (Global Information System) Station Beijing and other sources.
The new CF-1/JF-17 Thunder fighter being produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation in the People's Republic of China (PRC) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, Pakistan, has achieved performance approaching that of the US Lockheed Martin F-16A Block 15 fighter because of its use of sensitive US technologies, illegally- or accidentally-transferred to China and which enable advanced engine performance and the ability to control advanced, deliberately-unstable aerodynamic design.
The technology was transferred to the PRC during the US Clinton Administration.
The PRC People's Liberation Army-Air Force (PLAAF) plans to deploy up to 200 of the new aircraft starting in 2006, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plans to deploy 150 of the type starting in 2005-06. The CF-1/JF-17 provides both air forces with a significant replacement for MiG-21-generation fighter family (PRC-built equivalents), and equates to the new Indian HAL Tejas PV-1 Light Combat Aircraft which is due to start replacing the Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-21s.
Some of the sensitive details of the CF-1/JF-17 emerged at the fourth China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, PRC, in November 2002, and the just-concluded November 1-7, 2004, fifth exhibition at Zhuhai.
The most important US restricted technology in the fighter is the quadruple-redundant fly-by-wire technology and the single-crystal jet engine fan blade technology.
Although not publicly confirmed that US technology was illicitly acquired, the fly-by-wire system used in the fighter was recognized by GIS/Defense & Foreign Affairs sources at Zhuhai as a system conceived and produced by Honeywell, of the US, and cleared by the Clinton Administration for use on civil airliners in the PRC. The technology had originally been on the US Dept. of State Munitions Control List, but, at Commerce Dept. insistence, was reportedly cleared by the Clinton Administration onto the Commerce Control List so that it could be licensed for production in the PRC for civil use.
The single-crystal jet engine fan blade technology, a unique US process, has not been cleared for export as a technology or as a manufacturing process - the finished product is used on exported US jet engines - and is considered a sensitive technology and manufacturing process which is prohibited from export. However, the Russian RD-93 turbofan engine (Kun Lun in PRC designation), an upgrade of RD-33 of the type used in Russian MiG-29 fighters, and used in FC-1/JF-17, is built in China under Russian license, and the Chinese examples illustrated at the Zhuhai show have this single-crystal blade technology.
It is not yet clear whether the technology was transferred from Russia to the PRC (and therefore on to Pakistan), or whether China acquired the technology which would now, presumably, be available to Russia (assuming Russian oversight of the RD-93 license production program in China).
In any event, the FC-1/JF-17 highlights the extent to which sensitive US aerospace technology was lost to the PRC during the Clinton Administration, reinforcing the concerns which the US Congress's Cox Commission1 was reportedly attempting to probe in 1998-99.
As well, the Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar, which reportedly has been fitted to the FC-1 prototypes, and which will equip the PAF JF-17s, reportedly has a significant US technology content which was not cleared by the US Government for onward export by Italy to Pakistan.
One Pakistani military officer, reportedly at one-star level, noted on April 18, 2004 : "China has added several features [to the FC-1/JF-17] that were directly reverse-engineered from a US-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan. The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the US-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles. The new Chinese J-10 supersonic fighter is designed to take on and defeat US-built F-16 and F-18 fighters that make up the bulk of American airpower."
The US, meanwhile, is now in the process of deciding on the final terms of the transfer to the Pakistan Air Force of an initial batch of 18 F-16C/D Block 60 combat aircraft, with an additional 60 to follow.
See Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, October 7, 2004: Pakistan Moves to New Era of Defense Expansion.
Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, September 28, 2004: Pakistan-US Defense Deals Resume With F-16s, Naval Helicopters and Ships.
The Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily report of October 7, 2004, noted: "[N]ot only is it virtually assured that the PAF variant will be the latest version of the Block 60, but there has been an indication that the US will, in fact, sell Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) to accompany the aircraft. The Pakistan Government essentially told the US that the F-16s needed an over-the-horizon (OTH) AAM to balance the Indian Air Force's (IAF) capability in this regard."
Significantly, however, the issue of the loss of sensitive US technologies is not confined to the PRC and Pakistan. The question of a request by the Indian Navy to acquire six US Lockheed Martin P-3C Orion long-range maritime patrol aircraft (LRMPA) is being discussed in policy circles as though the transfer would be approved, almost as à fait accompli, by the Bush Administration, given the growing cooperation between India and the US. However, the loss to "a third power" - presumably Russia - of some US technologies given earlier to India may well be sufficient for the sale of P-3Cs to the IN to be disallowed.
Certainly, the transfer of the P-3Cs to India is being opposed within the US Defense Department in some areas, and only the fact that US Pres. George W. Bush promised the sale to India could override the objections.
//// ok people someone tell me this news is credible, the US is going to sell F-16 block 60 with its Aim-120, well what the hell is the news article playing at. ideally it would make more sence, since PAF has other options superior and more cost effective then the Block 50s.
Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily
November 8, 2004
Advanced Chinese And Pakistani Fighter Utilizes Illegally- Or Accidentally-Transferred Sensitive US Technology
Exclusive. From GIS (Global Information System) Station Beijing and other sources.
The new CF-1/JF-17 Thunder fighter being produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation in the People's Republic of China (PRC) and Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, Pakistan, has achieved performance approaching that of the US Lockheed Martin F-16A Block 15 fighter because of its use of sensitive US technologies, illegally- or accidentally-transferred to China and which enable advanced engine performance and the ability to control advanced, deliberately-unstable aerodynamic design.
The technology was transferred to the PRC during the US Clinton Administration.
The PRC People's Liberation Army-Air Force (PLAAF) plans to deploy up to 200 of the new aircraft starting in 2006, and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) plans to deploy 150 of the type starting in 2005-06. The CF-1/JF-17 provides both air forces with a significant replacement for MiG-21-generation fighter family (PRC-built equivalents), and equates to the new Indian HAL Tejas PV-1 Light Combat Aircraft which is due to start replacing the Indian Air Force (IAF) MiG-21s.
Some of the sensitive details of the CF-1/JF-17 emerged at the fourth China International Aviation and Aerospace Exhibition in Zhuhai, PRC, in November 2002, and the just-concluded November 1-7, 2004, fifth exhibition at Zhuhai.
The most important US restricted technology in the fighter is the quadruple-redundant fly-by-wire technology and the single-crystal jet engine fan blade technology.
Although not publicly confirmed that US technology was illicitly acquired, the fly-by-wire system used in the fighter was recognized by GIS/Defense & Foreign Affairs sources at Zhuhai as a system conceived and produced by Honeywell, of the US, and cleared by the Clinton Administration for use on civil airliners in the PRC. The technology had originally been on the US Dept. of State Munitions Control List, but, at Commerce Dept. insistence, was reportedly cleared by the Clinton Administration onto the Commerce Control List so that it could be licensed for production in the PRC for civil use.
The single-crystal jet engine fan blade technology, a unique US process, has not been cleared for export as a technology or as a manufacturing process - the finished product is used on exported US jet engines - and is considered a sensitive technology and manufacturing process which is prohibited from export. However, the Russian RD-93 turbofan engine (Kun Lun in PRC designation), an upgrade of RD-33 of the type used in Russian MiG-29 fighters, and used in FC-1/JF-17, is built in China under Russian license, and the Chinese examples illustrated at the Zhuhai show have this single-crystal blade technology.
It is not yet clear whether the technology was transferred from Russia to the PRC (and therefore on to Pakistan), or whether China acquired the technology which would now, presumably, be available to Russia (assuming Russian oversight of the RD-93 license production program in China).
In any event, the FC-1/JF-17 highlights the extent to which sensitive US aerospace technology was lost to the PRC during the Clinton Administration, reinforcing the concerns which the US Congress's Cox Commission1 was reportedly attempting to probe in 1998-99.
As well, the Italian Grifo S-7 fire-control radar, which reportedly has been fitted to the FC-1 prototypes, and which will equip the PAF JF-17s, reportedly has a significant US technology content which was not cleared by the US Government for onward export by Italy to Pakistan.
One Pakistani military officer, reportedly at one-star level, noted on April 18, 2004 : "China has added several features [to the FC-1/JF-17] that were directly reverse-engineered from a US-made F-16 Falcon jet fighter provided to Beijing by Pakistan. The Pakistani F-16, sold to Islamabad during the 1980s, was given to the PLAAF as part of a secret military trade deal between Pakistan and China. In return for the US-made F-16 jet, Pakistan received a deep discount on the purchase of Chinese-made M-11 ballistic missiles. The new Chinese J-10 supersonic fighter is designed to take on and defeat US-built F-16 and F-18 fighters that make up the bulk of American airpower."
The US, meanwhile, is now in the process of deciding on the final terms of the transfer to the Pakistan Air Force of an initial batch of 18 F-16C/D Block 60 combat aircraft, with an additional 60 to follow.
See Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, October 7, 2004: Pakistan Moves to New Era of Defense Expansion.
Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily, September 28, 2004: Pakistan-US Defense Deals Resume With F-16s, Naval Helicopters and Ships.
The Defense & Foreign Affairs Daily report of October 7, 2004, noted: "[N]ot only is it virtually assured that the PAF variant will be the latest version of the Block 60, but there has been an indication that the US will, in fact, sell Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) to accompany the aircraft. The Pakistan Government essentially told the US that the F-16s needed an over-the-horizon (OTH) AAM to balance the Indian Air Force's (IAF) capability in this regard."
Significantly, however, the issue of the loss of sensitive US technologies is not confined to the PRC and Pakistan. The question of a request by the Indian Navy to acquire six US Lockheed Martin P-3C Orion long-range maritime patrol aircraft (LRMPA) is being discussed in policy circles as though the transfer would be approved, almost as à fait accompli, by the Bush Administration, given the growing cooperation between India and the US. However, the loss to "a third power" - presumably Russia - of some US technologies given earlier to India may well be sufficient for the sale of P-3Cs to the IN to be disallowed.
Certainly, the transfer of the P-3Cs to India is being opposed within the US Defense Department in some areas, and only the fact that US Pres. George W. Bush promised the sale to India could override the objections.
//// ok people someone tell me this news is credible, the US is going to sell F-16 block 60 with its Aim-120, well what the hell is the news article playing at. ideally it would make more sence, since PAF has other options superior and more cost effective then the Block 50s.
I don't know what to think of this. I had heard rumors previously of the additional F-16's, but not as Block 60's. Since the only .60's are for the UAE, and there is 4 more years of production before that order is filled, I tend to doubt it.
You would think the author could get the name of the plane right, it's FC-1, not CF-1. He makes it sound like a Canadian plane.
I don't think the engines are being made in China at this point, I think they are all being imported. So the turbine blade thing sounds flaky, if the tech was lost, it was lost to Russia, not China (unless you accept the story about the F-16, which China would have sent to Russia so Russia could rev-eng the turbine blades and put them on the RD-93 and send them back to China). :roll
If the FBW system was sold for civilian use and then adapted, well that's our own dam fault. Clinton did a lot of stupid things, this is minor in comparison.
The author also sounds like he is opposed to the P3C deal with India, out of fear that India will hand them over to Russia.
Why would a Pakistani One Star General say that Pakistan transferred a F-16 to China? He wants to kill the deal with the US?
I think the author doesn't want the US to sell anything to anyone...I take this article with a grain of salt. What was your source?
You would think the author could get the name of the plane right, it's FC-1, not CF-1. He makes it sound like a Canadian plane.
I don't think the engines are being made in China at this point, I think they are all being imported. So the turbine blade thing sounds flaky, if the tech was lost, it was lost to Russia, not China (unless you accept the story about the F-16, which China would have sent to Russia so Russia could rev-eng the turbine blades and put them on the RD-93 and send them back to China). :roll
If the FBW system was sold for civilian use and then adapted, well that's our own dam fault. Clinton did a lot of stupid things, this is minor in comparison.
The author also sounds like he is opposed to the P3C deal with India, out of fear that India will hand them over to Russia.
Why would a Pakistani One Star General say that Pakistan transferred a F-16 to China? He wants to kill the deal with the US?
I think the author doesn't want the US to sell anything to anyone...I take this article with a grain of salt. What was your source?