JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

well if its true that russia would not provide the engine then why the hell did pakistan go ahead with the project. .

anyway, i bet disscussions are going on undercover about this and i'm sure india is adding a little salt n pepper here and there.

Thats for sure,the news article itself says that,It is becoz of India russia denied the sale.

May be the only option now would be to reverse engineer but china doesn't seem to plan anything like that.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chinese FC-1 faces export hurdle [/font]
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/jdw/jdw050718_2_n.shtml

The Chengdhu FC-1, Pakistani designation JF-17, is a joint development between Pakistan and China but the issue of the powerplant remains unresolved. Russia has ruled out export of the RD-93, a development of the RD-33, to Pakistan to avoid upsetting India.

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica]P.A.F[/font][/url]]
This is all i could find on the engine business.
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/new...RD93forJF17.htm

I do think Janes is more reliable than anyother website.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Hold onn guys I smell something here. PAF has been very quiet about this and they've been promoting the Jet to other nations. They wouldn't do that unless they didn't have a Backup !! It would only hurt there Image if they couldn't deliver.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Hold onn guys I smell something here. PAF has been very quiet about this and they've been promoting the Jet to other nations. They wouldn't do that unless they didn't have a Backup !! It would only hurt there Image if they couldn't deliver.

Russia said that they won't give engine to just to pakistan not anyother country so china/pakistan can promote the jet to other countries which will be still powered by RD-93.
So even a normal asian country like Iran,Korea etc will not have any problem in getting the JF-17 with RD-93.

 

[highsea]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I'm not sure Pakistan wants to deal with the fallout of selling JF-17's to Iran or NorK. China, might do it, but the US would not be too happy.

The export restrictions on the RD-93 go beyond just Pakistan. Russia has stated that the engines will not be sold if the FC-1/JF-17 is to compete directly with Russian planes in any tender. So if a country wants to buy some planes, and the MiG-29 is offered up, Russia will not supply the engines for FC-1's to compete against the MiG.

 

[pshamim]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The engine issue has been resolved with Russia.
I've already posted in this forum somewhere how that's so. And I don't like to repeat myself.

That is no answer. If you know something, come out with it. May be we all can learn something from you. Dont want to repeat then what was the reason for your post.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Thats for sure,the news article itself says that,It is becoz of India russia denied the sale.

May be the only option now would be to reverse engineer but china doesn't seem to plan anything like that.
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chinese FC-1 faces export hurdle [/font]
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/news/jdw/jdw050718_2_n.shtml



I do think Janes is more reliable than anyother website.

I think china dont have the capability to reverse engineer the Engine. I think its not only about design, its about the material of critical engine components which are difficult to reverse engineer. A slight difference in proportion could fail the engine with burst... :coffee

 

[rafale_2k5]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Plus its not like that today u decided to reverse engineer something n its gonna happen outta of the box, china still lacks technology to manufacture critical engine components, so even if paf opts for another engine now, the delay resulted could off set the programme to several more years !!!!n if that happens than the viability of the whole programme becomes questionable!!!!!!!

Plus i dont think that the clause introduced would hurt current MIG-29 sales sinc its in the league of block 50s whereas JF-17 could be opted for as a cheaper alternative for arforces planing to replace their fleets of MIG-21s/F-7s.

 

[Salman78]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

PAF could lease the FC-1's from the PLAAF.

You dont spend millions of dollars on R & D, set up a production line, then lease the airplane

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Plus its not like that today u decided to reverse engineer something n its gonna happen outta of the box, china still lacks technology to manufacture critical engine components, so even if paf opts for another engine now, the delay resulted could off set the programme to several more years !!!!n if that happens than the viability of the whole programme becomes questionable!!!!!!!

Plus i dont think that the clause introduced would hurt current MIG-29 sales sinc its in the league of block 50s whereas JF-17 could be opted for as a cheaper alternative for arforces planing to replace their fleets of MIG-21s/F-7s.

Some countries have poorer MiG-29 versions, they r not even BVR & r from ancient times. They are not willing to buy new MiG-29s. China seems interested in targeting them while Pakistan's job is to maintain its fleet & replace the aging F-5s & F-7s of its allied/friendly countries (E.g; Saudi Arabia).

What ever the engine situation is PAF seems to have started the development phase aswell as the marketing.

As at this moment I am in Saudi Arabia & PAF chief is here. The speculations here is that he is here to market JF-17 over F-5s besides visiting the PAF pilots based in/with Saudi AirForce. Saudis are also planning on aquiring more PAF pilots.

Kalim Sadat has also brought the high ranking evaluation officers with him here. For what they have come to evaluate, I dnt know.

Besides Sadat the British Defence deligation is also here. So far they havent said any thing abt weapons sale.They just said they are going to have full cooporation with Saudis on defence & other technologies.

I'm not sure Pakistan wants to deal with the fallout of selling JF-17's to Iran or NorK. China, might do it, but the US would not be too happy.

The export restrictions on the RD-93 go beyond just Pakistan. Russia has stated that the engines will not be sold if the FC-1/JF-17 is to compete directly with Russian planes in any tender. So if a country wants to buy some planes, and the MiG-29 is offered up, Russia will not supply the engines for FC-1's to compete against the MiG.

Pakistan wont be selling Jf-17 to North Korea. We have nothing to loose with NK but we have lot to loose buy making US angry. But Pakistan does see Iran as a potential buyer.

Iran being MiG-29 coustomer, I believe that Russia will not sell RD-93 for FC-1s to be supplied to Iran. If what u r saying is true. Syria is also on the buyers list along with Egypt. Anyways most of the potential buyer countries (included in the list of China & Pakistan togather) are non US friendly. Pakistan cant drop all of them & loose the sell.


What ever the situation is (with engine) Pakistan & China seem to be going ahead with the project. There has been no stops so far.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Sabre tell me that in history any of the AC project which had been cancelled due to the non avalibility of the engines from any of the country i dont think that kind of thing happened in history.

 

[nalan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

well india's marut2 (twin engined marut) was affected due to engine problems (this aircraft was designed by kurt tank and was a very promising project in those times),the original marut also never saw its full potential.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Some countries have poorer MiG-29 versions, they r not even BVR & r from ancient times. They are not willing to buy new MiG-29s. China seems interested in targeting them while Pakistan's job is to maintain its fleet & replace the aging F-5s & F-7s of its allied/friendly countries (E.g; Saudi Arabia).
.

Ancient?? Poorer??
I don't know what do u mean by them.
Even the original Mig-29 could fire AA-10 Alamos BVR Missile,its depends on the user countries if they want to have BVR Missile.

But Mig-29 maintainence is very difficult due to Engine and Avionics problems but they are all now solved in the lastest Mig-29m2.

And Mig-29(20-25 million dollars) cost is Slightly more than JF-17.


If u have to choose between JF-17 and Mig-29m2 to replace aging fighters,then its obvious to choose Mig-29 Itself.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

any other project other then that in which year this project marut2 got affected why didnt you asked russian to give you engines

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Sabre tell me that in history any of the AC project which had been cancelled due to the non avalibility of the engines from any of the country i dont think that kind of thing happened in history.

But why are u asking such question?
JF-17 won't be cancelled but still can be used by PLAAF.

Its just that now russia will directly influence on JF-17 sales,development etc.
If they want to offer the fighter to any other country they will ,if they don't want,they will simply block the engine.
Did Russia provide some technical assistance to China for JF-17.

China might violate the agreement,that is the only optimal solution right now.

But if China Violates,Russia might completely block the engine to china itself.

 

[kashifshahzad]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

But why are u asking such question?
JF-17 won't be cancelled but still can be used by PLAAF.

Its just that now russia will directly influence on JF-17 sales,development etc.
If they want to offer the fighter to any other country they will ,if they don't want,they will simply block the engine.
Did Russia provide some technical assistance to China for JF-17.

China might violate the agreement,that is the only optimal solution right now.

But if China Violates,Russia might completely block the engine to china itself.

I want that dame engine problem to get solved as quickly as possible that would be foolish to voilate the agreement with Russia China is getting a lot of things from Russia.If only China gets the JF-17's then what the hell PAF is gonna do is there any subtitute for the replacement of old AC's for that we will have to do meeting with every AC manufacturing company but they would never gonna be able to get this kind of plane having a lot of things and doing such nice things and having this much price

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Relax. Something is probably already in the works as far as this issue is concerned; you can just tell by the hush hush that has been maintained by the parties involved up to this point. No body really knows whatz happening inside the concerned circles and the media just keeps speculating on one aspect or the other which as often, is misleading. We can't really be sure of what PAF would do with regards to this problem unless they come out with a statement about whatz going on and what backup plan they've fallen up on to deal with this situation.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I did some digging & regardless of the Engine troubles these countries are interested in JF-17 & some have even asked for them.

1. Egypt
2. Burma
3. Bangladesh
4. Nigeria
5. Zimbabwe

While marketing is being done in

6. UAE
7. KSA
8. Libya
9. Syria
10. Iran

The countries where it is being marketed most of them are believed to buy JF-17 specialy KSA to replace its F-5. I believe Syria too would be interested.

Besides that these countries are interested in K-8 Trainers. KSA, UAE, Egypt, Zimbabwe & Iran are already using K-8.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

since when did Iran have K-8 jets SABRE. i never heard about this one before. any link????

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

since when did Iran have K-8 jets SABRE. i never heard about this one before. any link????

I read some where that China gave/sold Iran 2 K-8s. Iranians had seen K-8 at the 1st IDEAS in Pakistan. Pakistan had also marketed it to Iran offcourse. The 2 were given for evaluation. If Iran likes it they can buy more & I think I also read some time later that Iran is willing to buy K-8.

Cant find the link now it was long time ago & on a random search. Try sinodefence.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Hi guys,

Can anyone list the components designed and developed by Pakistan in JF-17 ? I mean which components of JF-17 have made in Pakistan tag ?

:coffee