JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions
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kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Dear i am just asking the difference the FC-1 and the J-10 will be equiped with the latest BVR AAM's and they wil also carry the bombs then how cant they fight with the F-16's which we have in service if the FC-1 and J-10's are more capable then we can replace old F-16's the new BVR missile will give a boost in the export market to named as SD-10 then how can you say that it cant match the F-16's the difference is in the airframes the airframes of the F-16's is madeup of composite but the JF-17 and J-10's consists of mainly of metals.srirangan said:
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
1)well kashif for one f-16 has a maximum speed of mach2 not mach 1.7 as your article indicates.
2)f-16 has a heavier weapons load and is a larger aircraft having superior ground attack capability(f-16's weapon load is nearly 6 tons compared to 3+tons and 4+ tons of jf-17 and f-10 respectively).
3)f-16 is a matured and combat proven technology whereas the other two (jf-17 and f-10) have not seen any combat and have not been inducted in full strength.
4)in terms of manouverability f-16 can acheive 9g's whereas you have not mentioned that of f-10 and jf-17's according to your article is 8.5g's .f-16 thus has superiority over jf-17 interms of manouverability which will give f-16 the advantage in a dogfight.
5)f-16 has proven bvr combat capability ,f-10 and jf-17 may have them but i dont think it is yet proven.(f-16 can as of now carry amraam missile which is an operational missile ,i dont know much about sd-10 so i will not comment about it)
6)and as highsea had mentioned inhis post f-16's avionics are superior and combat proven when compared to jf-17's or f-10's
well further reference can be obtained on the f-16 (the latest variants) from www.airforce-technology.com:coffee
1)well kashif for one f-16 has a maximum speed of mach2 not mach 1.7 as your article indicates.
2)f-16 has a heavier weapons load and is a larger aircraft having superior ground attack capability(f-16's weapon load is nearly 6 tons compared to 3+tons and 4+ tons of jf-17 and f-10 respectively).
3)f-16 is a matured and combat proven technology whereas the other two (jf-17 and f-10) have not seen any combat and have not been inducted in full strength.
4)in terms of manouverability f-16 can acheive 9g's whereas you have not mentioned that of f-10 and jf-17's according to your article is 8.5g's .f-16 thus has superiority over jf-17 interms of manouverability which will give f-16 the advantage in a dogfight.
5)f-16 has proven bvr combat capability ,f-10 and jf-17 may have them but i dont think it is yet proven.(f-16 can as of now carry amraam missile which is an operational missile ,i dont know much about sd-10 so i will not comment about it)
6)and as highsea had mentioned inhis post f-16's avionics are superior and combat proven when compared to jf-17's or f-10's
well further reference can be obtained on the f-16 (the latest variants) from www.airforce-technology.com:coffee
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kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
SD-10 Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile
NAME
PLA designation: Pi Li-12 (PL-12)?
Export name: Shan Dian-10 (SD-10)
TYPE: Active radar homing medium-range air-to-air missile
CONTRACTOR: China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), also known as 607 Institute.
CARRIER AIRCRAFT: J-10, FC-1
SERVICE STATUS: Currently under development and is expected to enter service by 2005
PROGRAMME
China has been developing an active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air (MRAAM) for its fourth generation fighter aircraft since the late-1990s. In the Zhuhai Airshow 2002 China revealed its SD-10 active radar-homing MRAAM, which was said to be carried by the J-10 and FC-1/Super-7 fighters. The detailed information of this missile's development remains unknown, but it can be expected that the new missile will enter the PLAAF service by 2005 to 2008.
It is still not clear whether the SD-10 has any link with the PL-12 active radar homing MRAAM, which is also currently under development for the PLAAF. Some sources suggested that the SD-10 and PL-12 are actually the same missile programme with different names used by the export marketing company and the PLAAF respectively. The PL-12 was said to be derived from the Italian Aspide technology and integrated with active radar-homing seeker technology obtained from Russia.
According to the Chinese officials, the effort of developing the SD-10 has been underway since 1997. The missile was developed indigenously, but also with helps from foreign manufacturers. Several Russian missile and subsystem developers are reportedly supporting the program, with much of the missile utilizing components from the R-77 (AA-12 Adder). Ground-test firings have already been carried out, as have captive-carry and safe-clearance trials using a J-8B testbed aircraft.
DESIGN FEATURES
From the revealed photos of the SD-10, it can be estimated that the missile has a similar size to the U.S. AIM-120 and Russian R-77/AA-12 Adder. The general aerodynamic layout of the SD-10 is also highly identical to the AIM-120.
In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.
The SD-10 will have the range of above 70km
Yeah agreed but this is a smaller difference you cant make it a base the F-16 is really superior then the JF-17's
the JF-17 is also cheaper it costs about $15m but the F-16 cost $40m so if Three JF-17 thunders fly they can fight at different places can knockdown planes and can return through different routes but when the F-16 goes it can manuvere but when the weapon load is heavier then the manuvarability is also limited.
Dear mate these two fighter havent been any incident that whether there was any defect in their airframes or in the engines.But the F-22 raptor had some bad incidents and other planes also do have these kind of incidents so what can you get out of it
Do this 0.5 matters
every thing has to start from zero
SD-10 Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile
NAME
PLA designation: Pi Li-12 (PL-12)?
Export name: Shan Dian-10 (SD-10)
TYPE: Active radar homing medium-range air-to-air missile
CONTRACTOR: China Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute (LETRI), also known as 607 Institute.
CARRIER AIRCRAFT: J-10, FC-1
SERVICE STATUS: Currently under development and is expected to enter service by 2005
PROGRAMME
China has been developing an active radar-homing medium-range air-to-air (MRAAM) for its fourth generation fighter aircraft since the late-1990s. In the Zhuhai Airshow 2002 China revealed its SD-10 active radar-homing MRAAM, which was said to be carried by the J-10 and FC-1/Super-7 fighters. The detailed information of this missile's development remains unknown, but it can be expected that the new missile will enter the PLAAF service by 2005 to 2008.
It is still not clear whether the SD-10 has any link with the PL-12 active radar homing MRAAM, which is also currently under development for the PLAAF. Some sources suggested that the SD-10 and PL-12 are actually the same missile programme with different names used by the export marketing company and the PLAAF respectively. The PL-12 was said to be derived from the Italian Aspide technology and integrated with active radar-homing seeker technology obtained from Russia.
According to the Chinese officials, the effort of developing the SD-10 has been underway since 1997. The missile was developed indigenously, but also with helps from foreign manufacturers. Several Russian missile and subsystem developers are reportedly supporting the program, with much of the missile utilizing components from the R-77 (AA-12 Adder). Ground-test firings have already been carried out, as have captive-carry and safe-clearance trials using a J-8B testbed aircraft.
DESIGN FEATURES
From the revealed photos of the SD-10, it can be estimated that the missile has a similar size to the U.S. AIM-120 and Russian R-77/AA-12 Adder. The general aerodynamic layout of the SD-10 is also highly identical to the AIM-120.
In 1996 China revealed an active radar-homing seeker AMR-1, which is possibly based on Russian technology. Claimed to be developed for the new generation active radar-homing MRAAM, the AMR-1 seeker or its developed variant could be used to guide the SD-10.
The SD-10 will have the range of above 70km
Suppose dear that one F-16 have superior avionics and it has AIM-120 and the J-10 and JF-17 have inferior avionics and they have the SD-10 so it is confirmed that the radar which JF-17 and J-10 will have will be a range of more then 70 km+ but what about the F-16 ofcourse it have the superior avionics but it dont have the long range BVR AAM so the F-16 will escape caz it can go to 2 Mach so what are we have 40 F-16's and we are getting more may be 50-100 in very high price forget about the dogfight this is the era that one AC fires and knock down other extinct use of sidewinders and other missiles comming in this category now countries have SAM sites located near the boarders and near the runways so how can the enemy planes bother to come near the base
Cant you use the edit button this is used for editing LOL i am seeing you that you are quickly increasing posts
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
so you mean to say that aim-120 doent have a range in excess of 70kms,and by the way the costy of f-16 depends on the variant some variants are available for 20-30 millions too ,it is considered to be a highly affordable fighter.
also currently around 4000 f-16's are in service and many more are epected(including by pakistan) to be produced ,it has never been shot down in combat and by the way what is your source that the radars of jf-17 and f-10 have the ranges that you have mentioned. manouverability of 0.5g's definitely does matter.it is the amount of g's that an airframe can withstand in combat,if the jf-17 is frequently sublected to g's in excess to its capability(8.5 g's) it will suffer from early fatigue and structural failures. m2 and m1.7 is not a small diffenece(dont see it as a.3 difference)it is a difference of 300+kms/hr,an aircraft can use thisadditional speed to outmanouverthe opponent or to get to the combat zone that much quicker.
dearest kashif just because an aircraft has had accidents doesnt mean that there is a defect in it's airframe or engine (accidents can happen due to several reasons cfit due to lack of situational awareness is one of them ,like offcourse airframe or engine problems or software and avionics problems,bird hits etc).if we go by your logic then pakistan need not go for f-16 wasting 25million dollars per aircraft more instead they should acquire 100's of jf-17 and f-10 (they must be the best aircrafts in the world since they have not crashed or had accidents so far along with the lca whereas aircrafts like gripen,f22 and rafale,ef2000 had all crashed)
regarding sd10 how many times has it been testfired,how many variants are there,usa already has several variants of amraam and they are already developing more advance variants of it.so amraam is no pushover.
yes kashif everything has to start from zero and it is like comparing a baby who is just starting to walk with a 30 year old person in the prime of his life.
well kashif you said that sd-10 uses components of r77 but which variant,r77 is not as advance as what we may think a more advanced variant of the basic r77 is available known as the RVV-AE .:coffee
so you mean to say that aim-120 doent have a range in excess of 70kms,and by the way the costy of f-16 depends on the variant some variants are available for 20-30 millions too ,it is considered to be a highly affordable fighter.
also currently around 4000 f-16's are in service and many more are epected(including by pakistan) to be produced ,it has never been shot down in combat and by the way what is your source that the radars of jf-17 and f-10 have the ranges that you have mentioned. manouverability of 0.5g's definitely does matter.it is the amount of g's that an airframe can withstand in combat,if the jf-17 is frequently sublected to g's in excess to its capability(8.5 g's) it will suffer from early fatigue and structural failures. m2 and m1.7 is not a small diffenece(dont see it as a.3 difference)it is a difference of 300+kms/hr,an aircraft can use thisadditional speed to outmanouverthe opponent or to get to the combat zone that much quicker.
dearest kashif just because an aircraft has had accidents doesnt mean that there is a defect in it's airframe or engine (accidents can happen due to several reasons cfit due to lack of situational awareness is one of them ,like offcourse airframe or engine problems or software and avionics problems,bird hits etc).if we go by your logic then pakistan need not go for f-16 wasting 25million dollars per aircraft more instead they should acquire 100's of jf-17 and f-10 (they must be the best aircrafts in the world since they have not crashed or had accidents so far along with the lca whereas aircrafts like gripen,f22 and rafale,ef2000 had all crashed)
regarding sd10 how many times has it been testfired,how many variants are there,usa already has several variants of amraam and they are already developing more advance variants of it.so amraam is no pushover.
yes kashif everything has to start from zero and it is like comparing a baby who is just starting to walk with a 30 year old person in the prime of his life.
well kashif you said that sd-10 uses components of r77 but which variant,r77 is not as advance as what we may think a more advanced variant of the basic r77 is available known as the RVV-AE .:coffee
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
There are other alternatives too if this missile comes too late see this PL-11
If you say F-16 was never shot down in a combat tell me with which countries it was used to fight and fire hah those are Afghanistan and Iraq those poor countries could do nothing against this AC these AC's went there dropped the bombs fired the missiles and came back safely none of the SAM was able to reach it.When PAF got F-16's after that there was no war mainly i think they were aquired to make them to drop a NUKE .
Yaar see when you have a missile of range 70km and you dont have a radar range above then that then what the hell are you doing in the sky . suppose a F-16 comes nearer and it has superior radar then it has AIM-120 then thre range of SD-10 is higher and the range of AIM-120 is lesser then the advange which F-16 will have is this a bit good manuvaribility and greater speed which will help it in running away Lol.
read this
you can see clearly that why we are spending 20-25m$ for this plane the JF-17 and J-10's are good but the speed and the .5 manuvarability matter if we were able to make a plane like F-16 then there was no need to buy those costly F-16's.
Dear mate see the range of AIM-120aaaditya said:
And now see the specification of SD-10 then compare these two
SD-10 was first revealed to the public during the 2002 Zhuhai Airshow. PL-12 has been under development at LETRI/607 Institute since early 90s. It is expected to be in the same class as AIM-120A and the missile may have evolved from the earlier AMR-1 design. Its tailfins appear to have fin tips as well as the leading edges of the fin root cropped. These specially designed tailfins are believed to possess lower drag for greater speed and higher torque for better maneuverability. Two datalink antennas can be seen next to the nozzle for mid-course correction. PL-12 completed its development test in December 2004 and was expected to enter the service in 2005 to be carried by J-8F FC-1 ,J-10 and J-11B.Some specifications of SD-10: length 3,850mm, diameter 203mm, wing span 674mm, weight 180kg, max g-load 38g, max speed 4M, max range 70km.
There are other alternatives too if this missile comes too late see this PL-11
When you are saying that there are other versions available whose price is less then they will also have inferior radar and weapon system our PRESIDENT has clearly said that Pakistan is not going to get a plane which could not meet our requirements so keep this in mind.
There are arounf 4000 F-16's in service including PAF i want to say this the JF-17 will also be in a bigger quantity caz it is going to replace the old planes like A-5 ,F-7's ,F-7PG's and Mirages.This planes is mainly developed by China for the export then the countries operating these planes will require a replacement so lets see how can this plane gets the markets.aaaditya said:
If you say F-16 was never shot down in a combat tell me with which countries it was used to fight and fire hah those are Afghanistan and Iraq those poor countries could do nothing against this AC these AC's went there dropped the bombs fired the missiles and came back safely none of the SAM was able to reach it.When PAF got F-16's after that there was no war mainly i think they were aquired to make them to drop a NUKE .
Yaar see when you have a missile of range 70km and you dont have a radar range above then that then what the hell are you doing in the sky . suppose a F-16 comes nearer and it has superior radar then it has AIM-120 then thre range of SD-10 is higher and the range of AIM-120 is lesser then the advange which F-16 will have is this a bit good manuvaribility and greater speed which will help it in running away Lol.
Yeah dear i also want to say this kind of thing if F-16's didnt had a single accident then it dosent mean that it is the superior plane as compared to the other which had accidents the JF-17 will also have accidents .I want to say that when the planes are tested if the AC crashes then the engineers and the designers have to where the real problem was so it takes time and you can see clearly the JF-17 didnt had any accident it shows that it is ok there are more chances that it can fly in the sky and its serial productoin will start in a few years.aaaditya said:
read this
you can see clearly that why we are spending 20-25m$ for this plane the JF-17 and J-10's are good but the speed and the .5 manuvarability matter if we were able to make a plane like F-16 then there was no need to buy those costly F-16's.
Aaaditya dont talk nuts it will be in production when the JF-17 will also in production your comparison is totaly wrong you are comparing a baby with a man what a rubbish dear planes are planes not babies if you say this the F-22 is also a baby but!! the F-16 is 30 years old why dont they modify that lol they need thatplanes do they are manufacturing it i have told you the alternatives for SD-10 that missile could be modified to fir into these new planes JF-17 and J-10 when you have a back bone strong then you can fight better when the back bone is not stronger then you have only to defence yourself nothing elseaaaditya said:
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
kashif and aaaditya- Guys, keep in mind that a manufacturer's quoted range for an AAM missile means nothing unless launch parameters are specified. Russian manufacturers tend to advertise their ranges based on unrealistic launch parameters, to make them look better than they really are. If you want to compare AAM's in more detail, you can open a thread in WMD and Missiles, perhaps R-77 vs. AIM-120. It might get interesting.
kashif and aaaditya- Guys, keep in mind that a manufacturer's quoted range for an AAM missile means nothing unless launch parameters are specified. Russian manufacturers tend to advertise their ranges based on unrealistic launch parameters, to make them look better than they really are. If you want to compare AAM's in more detail, you can open a thread in WMD and Missiles, perhaps R-77 vs. AIM-120. It might get interesting.
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
dearest kashif
the range of aim120 according to your post is 39nm(that is 39nautical miles which is equal to 72.15 kilometres since 1nm=1.85 kms) so that makes it longer ranged than the sd-10 or the othermissile that you mentioned
the speed of aim120 that is mentioned in your post is very vague they say 760+miles which means it can go faster than that.so let us not take that into consideration.
dearest kashif in your post you mentioned that fc-1 is as capable as 80-85%of f-16 but you didnt mention what version of f-16(even then fc1 is 20-15% inferior to f-16 that should answere your argument fc1 is inferior to f-16.
maybe kashif you have not heard about f-16block60 or f-16sufa and all that(check www.airforce-technology.com for more info on that ) f-16's have been considerably modified based on the combat experience gaine by the us and its allies during the period of its service.
you are also making a mistake comparing sd-10 with the oldest version of aim120 when more advanced versions of aim120 are available
here are the specifications of aim120c amraam
SpecificationsDiameter/Caliber180mm7.09-inLength3.7 m12-ftMax Range48 km26 nmMax Speed4,896 kphMach 4.1Max Weight157 kg346-lbSpan.5 m1-ftWarhead Weight20 kg44-lb
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00005003
you will notice that that aim120c is lighter and faster than sd-10.
also check the article from this site http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html(the company manufacturing this missile about specifications of aim120a /b and you will find that the range is 70kms,and the speed is m4.) its got a detailed report on aim-120's development programme.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-120.htm
by the way if you want the complete information regarding the f-16 which will be helpfull for comparing it with other aircraft(jf-17 and f-10) then check
www.f-16.net
dearest kashif
the range of aim120 according to your post is 39nm(that is 39nautical miles which is equal to 72.15 kilometres since 1nm=1.85 kms) so that makes it longer ranged than the sd-10 or the othermissile that you mentioned
the speed of aim120 that is mentioned in your post is very vague they say 760+miles which means it can go faster than that.so let us not take that into consideration.
dearest kashif in your post you mentioned that fc-1 is as capable as 80-85%of f-16 but you didnt mention what version of f-16(even then fc1 is 20-15% inferior to f-16 that should answere your argument fc1 is inferior to f-16.
maybe kashif you have not heard about f-16block60 or f-16sufa and all that(check www.airforce-technology.com for more info on that ) f-16's have been considerably modified based on the combat experience gaine by the us and its allies during the period of its service.
you are also making a mistake comparing sd-10 with the oldest version of aim120 when more advanced versions of aim120 are available
here are the specifications of aim120c amraam
SpecificationsDiameter/Caliber180mm7.09-inLength3.7 m12-ftMax Range48 km26 nmMax Speed4,896 kphMach 4.1Max Weight157 kg346-lbSpan.5 m1-ftWarhead Weight20 kg44-lb
http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=mn00005003
you will notice that that aim120c is lighter and faster than sd-10.
also check the article from this site http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html(the company manufacturing this missile about specifications of aim120a /b and you will find that the range is 70kms,and the speed is m4.) its got a detailed report on aim-120's development programme.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aim-120.htm
by the way if you want the complete information regarding the f-16 which will be helpfull for comparing it with other aircraft(jf-17 and f-10) then check
www.f-16.net
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
well kashif iam also posting specifications of some versions of f-16 from
www.f-16.net
F-16A/B
Block 1/5/10/15/15OCU/20
Specifications
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan, rated at 12,240 lb.s.t. dry, 14,670 lb.s.t. full military, and 23,830 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.
Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.
F-16C/D
Block 50/52
Specifications [size=-1](standard Block 50/52)[/size]
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .
Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: 18,238 pounds empty, 26,463 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 42,300 pounds maximum takeoff.
pakistan is planning to acquire the advanced variant of this aircraft (f-16 block52+)
F-16E/F
Block 60
Specifications
Engine: One General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, rated at 19,000 lb.s.t. dry and 32,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.02 (1333 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet.
Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: around 22,000 pounds empty, 29,000 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 46,000 pounds maximum takeoff
you would notice that the sustained speed alone is more than jf-17's maximum speed(m 1.6)
well kashif iam also posting specifications of some versions of f-16 from
www.f-16.net
F-16A/B
Block 1/5/10/15/15OCU/20
Specifications
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan, rated at 12,240 lb.s.t. dry, 14,670 lb.s.t. full military, and 23,830 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Maximum speed: Mach 2.05 at 40,000 feet. Service ceiling 55,000 feet. Maximum range 2400 miles. Initial climb rate 62,000 feet per minute.
Dimensions: wingspan 32 feet 9 1/2 inches, length 49 feet 3 1/2 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: 16,285 pounds empty, 25,281 pounds combat, 37,500 pounds maximum takeoff.
F-16C/D
Block 50/52
Specifications [size=-1](standard Block 50/52)[/size]
Engine: One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's) .
Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: 18,238 pounds empty, 26,463 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 42,300 pounds maximum takeoff.
pakistan is planning to acquire the advanced variant of this aircraft (f-16 block52+)
F-16E/F
Block 60
Specifications
Engine: One General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, rated at 19,000 lb.s.t. dry and 32,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning.
Performance: Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.02 (1333 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet.
Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 0 inches, length 49 feet 4 inches, height 16 feet 8 1/2 inches, wing area 300 square feet.
Weights: around 22,000 pounds empty, 29,000 pounds normal loaded (air-to-air mission), 46,000 pounds maximum takeoff
you would notice that the sustained speed alone is more than jf-17's maximum speed(m 1.6)
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Dear aaaditya i know that UAE and Isreal has greater versions of F-16's the UAE has E/F and the Isreal has F-16I Sufa i have posted this before somewhere in DT the specifications about the Sufa are as mentioned
F-16I Sufa
The F-16I looks radically different from other F-16s, with Conformal Fuel Tanks, dorsal spine, and numerous fairings and bulges for undisclosed equipment. Rumor has it that a lot of the equipment is only installed after delivery to Israel.
You canclearly see that this version of F-16 is with conformal fuel tanks dorsal spine and numerous fairings and bulges for undisclosed equipment.But keep this thing in mind that the higher ranger AMRAAM will be from AIM-120/A/B/C you know that this is the age of that planes having radar that can see other planes without being seen and of that planes having long range BVR's so if you say the new versions of planes will use this
specifications of aim120c amraam
SpecificationsDiameter/Caliber180mm7.09-inLength3.7 m12-ftMax Range48 km26 nmMax Speed4,896 kphMach 4.1Max Weight157 kg346-lbSpan.5 m1-ftWarhead Weight20 kg44-lb
In this you can clearly see that if JF-17 thunder is having a fight with F-16 having AIM-120C then the JF-17 is going to knock it down dear forget that the speed and weight are going to do some difference use common sence then you will understand all.
See the specifications of UAE's F-16 E/F
Modifications & Armament
The UAE purchased USD $2 billion in sophisticated aircraft armament for its F-16s, including 491 AIM-120B AAMRAAM Missiles, 267 AIM-9M Sidewinder 163 AGM-88 Harm, 1,163 AGM-65D/G Marerick , 52 AGM-84 Harpoon, laser guided bombs, 20mm ammunition and other weaponry.
I think dear you cant see the prices the prices will reach to 70-80m$ per piece and there is no difference in the weapon system so what will they do if they have superior radar think for a while and search the range if AIM-120B
then tell me whether the range of SD-10 is greater or the range of AIM-120 is greater.Lol
I repeat that the only difference in the JF-17 and the F-16's is the composition and design of airframes,engines,radars and manuverability but the weapon system are same but are of different origins if we were able to make planes like F-16 then there was no need to buy F-16's see he Sweden they havent purchased any plane from other country they have JAS 39 ,viggin and the other one i dont remember I pray that PAF will be able to make planes like F-16's but we have to buy engines and avionics from others like Russia and France
Dear aaaditya i know that UAE and Isreal has greater versions of F-16's the UAE has E/F and the Isreal has F-16I Sufa i have posted this before somewhere in DT the specifications about the Sufa are as mentioned
F-16I Sufa
The F-16I looks radically different from other F-16s, with Conformal Fuel Tanks, dorsal spine, and numerous fairings and bulges for undisclosed equipment. Rumor has it that a lot of the equipment is only installed after delivery to Israel.
You canclearly see that this version of F-16 is with conformal fuel tanks dorsal spine and numerous fairings and bulges for undisclosed equipment.But keep this thing in mind that the higher ranger AMRAAM will be from AIM-120/A/B/C you know that this is the age of that planes having radar that can see other planes without being seen and of that planes having long range BVR's so if you say the new versions of planes will use this
specifications of aim120c amraam
SpecificationsDiameter/Caliber180mm7.09-inLength3.7 m12-ftMax Range48 km26 nmMax Speed4,896 kphMach 4.1Max Weight157 kg346-lbSpan.5 m1-ftWarhead Weight20 kg44-lb
In this you can clearly see that if JF-17 thunder is having a fight with F-16 having AIM-120C then the JF-17 is going to knock it down dear forget that the speed and weight are going to do some difference use common sence then you will understand all.
See the specifications of UAE's F-16 E/F
Modifications & Armament
The UAE purchased USD $2 billion in sophisticated aircraft armament for its F-16s, including 491 AIM-120B AAMRAAM Missiles, 267 AIM-9M Sidewinder 163 AGM-88 Harm, 1,163 AGM-65D/G Marerick , 52 AGM-84 Harpoon, laser guided bombs, 20mm ammunition and other weaponry.
I think dear you cant see the prices the prices will reach to 70-80m$ per piece and there is no difference in the weapon system so what will they do if they have superior radar think for a while and search the range if AIM-120B
then tell me whether the range of SD-10 is greater or the range of AIM-120 is greater.Lol
I repeat that the only difference in the JF-17 and the F-16's is the composition and design of airframes,engines,radars and manuverability but the weapon system are same but are of different origins if we were able to make planes like F-16 then there was no need to buy F-16's see he Sweden they havent purchased any plane from other country they have JAS 39 ,viggin and the other one i dont remember I pray that PAF will be able to make planes like F-16's but we have to buy engines and avionics from others like Russia and France
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
This thread is starting to derail. Before people continue on quoting specs and stats about their respective platforms, please take the time to understand that it's about systems and systems integration.
aircombat particularly is about warfighting with systems.
quoting ranges of weapons, platform weight, mach speed etc has very little to do with absolute capability.
This thread is starting to derail. Before people continue on quoting specs and stats about their respective platforms, please take the time to understand that it's about systems and systems integration.
aircombat particularly is about warfighting with systems.
quoting ranges of weapons, platform weight, mach speed etc has very little to do with absolute capability.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Mod edit: Please do not tell other posters to modify the way and frequency of their posts. That is a moderators job - not yours. Such a request may also well be a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
Dear i have posted the comparison between these planes the only difference in the JF-17 and the F-16's is the composition and design of airframes,engines,radars and manuverability but the weapon system are same but are of different originsaaaditya said:
Mod edit: Please do not tell other posters to modify the way and frequency of their posts. That is a moderators job - not yours. Such a request may also well be a case of "the pot calling the kettle black"
Last edited by a moderator:
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Dear gf0012-aust plz try to understand that we are not senior members let us discuss here something is that necessory that when we want to discuss something we should open a new thread let us discuss the things we want to discuss this will make us to increase our abilities and knowledge i want to say that if a plane has the radar range of 100km and it has BVR missile of range 50 km and the other enemy plane which has a radar range of 70km and has the BVR missle of the same range what do you thing is the bestgf0012-aust said:
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
If you want to discuss F-16, do that in F-16 thread. If you want to discuss AIM missiles, do that in AIM Missile thread. This is a freaking FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17 thread, do I see F-16 in the name? Do I see AIM missiles in the name?
To baby sit you even further, this thread was created for you to post latest news and information about the jet... I am sure you knew that?
Now, any "talk back" or "sujjestions" to mods will result in ban for 4 weeks.
Continue with the TOPIC, FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17!!!
If you want to discuss F-16, do that in F-16 thread. If you want to discuss AIM missiles, do that in AIM Missile thread. This is a freaking FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17 thread, do I see F-16 in the name? Do I see AIM missiles in the name?
To baby sit you even further, this thread was created for you to post latest news and information about the jet... I am sure you knew that?
Now, any "talk back" or "sujjestions" to mods will result in ban for 4 weeks.
Continue with the TOPIC, FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17!!!
rafale_2k5
New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Kashif i never knew that u were so blinded by patriotism to start comparin it with F-16 , had it been so good PAF wont be rantin 4 years on the F-16 saga....plus its basically third generation whose avionics suite is topic of much speculation, even perfprmance parameters dont justify it to be proclaimed as superior to F-16s , look at F-16s combat record/ service with a number of forces whereas no pun against China is yet to deliver a decent finished project, couple all these things with the engine imbroglio n u have a host of problems to solve be4 it could be seen in PAF colours!!!! the only advantage PAF would gain is a medium tech aircraft meant 4 replacing F-7s n mirages, plus the technological know how to an extent in designing / fully integrating a fighter aircraft plus have the capability to go 4 block up grades in the future but weve got to see the time frame when this plane enters, by then the world would be buzzing with 4.5/ 5 gen planes!!!! how much tweaking it would require to put up a decent fight is still a matter of conjecture....:coffeekashifshahzad said:
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Dear mate i was compaing the JF-17 with the F-16 these both planes belong to the PAF or one of it will belong to the PAF so tell me where is the patriotism dear i have posted an article in which it was clearly said that the new JF-17 is 80-85% as much as capable as the the F-16's if both planes have the BVR missiles with the same range but the F-16 will have the higher speed and manuverabiliy this will give an edge to the F-16 the avionics are better in the F-16's if you have the MKI's then your AF is superior and it can do manuvers which other planes cant do but can you post the weapon system of that we will surely get the planes of next generation from China or russia now the whole situation depends upon India . How can you say that the old things are not usefull like F-16's if the old things are modified for the modren age then there is no doubt that they will not perform wellrafale_2k5 said:
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Ok lets be sensible here guys.
Rafale, to dispel some perceptions, the specs on the net regarding the Thunder are old, way old infact. A lot has changed wrt the specs and capabilities of this aircraft.
If you want the latest specs you'll have to wait till late this year when the pre production platforms start coming off the assembly line.
Kashif, learn the rules of platform comparison, first gather as much info about the patforms as possible, digest it, put it in the paradigm of operator countries and their specific geo-strategic military needs criteria, the intended role of the platform within their force structure and then proceed with the comparison, and always be circumspect while engaging in such comparisons as other members my very well know more than you.
Ok lets be sensible here guys.
Rafale, to dispel some perceptions, the specs on the net regarding the Thunder are old, way old infact. A lot has changed wrt the specs and capabilities of this aircraft.
If you want the latest specs you'll have to wait till late this year when the pre production platforms start coming off the assembly line.
Kashif, learn the rules of platform comparison, first gather as much info about the patforms as possible, digest it, put it in the paradigm of operator countries and their specific geo-strategic military needs criteria, the intended role of the platform within their force structure and then proceed with the comparison, and always be circumspect while engaging in such comparisons as other members my very well know more than you.
kashifshahzad
Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17
Technical Details:
Super Seven is a light weight, multi-role day-night, all weather fighter with max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed 1.6M, ceiling 16,500m, max weapon load 3,900kg, range 3,000km. It uses Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, which is an upgrade of RD-33, this RD-93 turbofan engine is also used in Russian MiG-29 it is claimed to 80-85% as capable as American F-16 and highly aerial maneuverability as its key features. RD-93 engine used in FC-1 is build in China with Russian license. The aircraft can also be fitted with an in-flight refueling probe and a deck arrester hook. This will increase its striking range beyond 3,000km.
I know i know several things will change in the JF-17 in the comming years but i want to say that this fighter will backup our F-16's if we had the tech and avionics as that F-16's have was there a need to buy F-16's then PAF would be looking for some kind of stealth planes may be from China or US or could try to make its own just spaculation!!
Yaar i wanted to say this only ok i will try to digest fstumair said:
Technical Details:
Super Seven is a light weight, multi-role day-night, all weather fighter with max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed 1.6M, ceiling 16,500m, max weapon load 3,900kg, range 3,000km. It uses Russian RD-93 turbofan engine, which is an upgrade of RD-33, this RD-93 turbofan engine is also used in Russian MiG-29 it is claimed to 80-85% as capable as American F-16 and highly aerial maneuverability as its key features. RD-93 engine used in FC-1 is build in China with Russian license. The aircraft can also be fitted with an in-flight refueling probe and a deck arrester hook. This will increase its striking range beyond 3,000km.
I know i know several things will change in the JF-17 in the comming years but i want to say that this fighter will backup our F-16's if we had the tech and avionics as that F-16's have was there a need to buy F-16's then PAF would be looking for some kind of stealth planes may be from China or US or could try to make its own just spaculation!!