JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[ashblackhawk]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I think, the technical difficulties involving engines may force Pakistan to scrap JF-17, they are negotiating for more F-16's instead with US. May be they can buy 75 or more F-16s in the same price and buying f-16's makes sense

cheers :coffee

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

PAF, can you date the interview? It seems pretty old.

yeah sri i can't date it but i can tell u that it is old.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Scrap Jf-17? That is the most absurd suggestion I've come across. PAF cannot afford to do that as there will hardly be an option left to keep PAF numbers up in the coming years with a medium tech bulk fighter. Plus, this engine issue is being racked up out of proportions with speculation after speculation.

If the problem was that urgent regarding the engine or any other aspect of the Jf-17 project, we would've seen immediate steps taken by PAF (which has a big stake in the success of the project) in a matter of months to resolve the crisis but we can see everything is a hush hush at this point. There definitely is something going around behind the concerned circles and they wish to keep it confidential.

This mere fact suggests, that nothing is troubling the Jf-17 project as some here would have us believe on the basis of sheer speculation mounted over articles blowing the situation out of proportions in the news media. I'll say it again, lets wait and see what really happens and what result we end up with regarding this situation.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

From my point of view JF-17 will go through as planned. At this moment only the early batch is being produced of 16 Air Crafts for training & engine is available for them. By the time the 16 AirCrafts (8 Pak, 8 China) are ready & actual serial production takes place China & Pak would have reverse engineered the RD-93. On the other hand the reverse engineering might actualy have been under way for some time. JF-17 is not an old planning & Pak certainly knows Russia's behavior. It should have started in 1996-7 or 1998.

Other wise new engine be planned with France or modify the Mirage-3 engines some how & develop newer versions of it, get the ToT & fly JF-17.

All in All its not going to be scraped. Pak acts like China, like it or not. Once u r in it finish it, there is no going back. & when its done put it to use. Never Scrap, keep trying.

 

[Hussain]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Can anybody tell me how many new Mirage engines does Pakistan have and where will they be used? Are existing Mirage 3 and 5 airframes in Pakistan new enough for these engines? What would be the approximate cost to purchase new Mirage airframes from France?


If Pakistan is planning to build 2 seat JF17 trainer the airframe will have to be stretched anyway? Why can't the Mirage engines be fitted in one or two seat lengthened JF17's?
In nay case the Pakistan needs larger numbers of frontline planes that are maintainable, advanced and cost effective?

 

[Hussain]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

China has ordered 150 RD93 engines and plans to import more specifically for the FC1. They have decided to induct the plane. China plans to buy at least 150. They will probably buy more, as they have no alternative plane to replace the J7's and A5's in Chinese service. The F10's are just too expensive to replace all the outdated Chinese planes. Interest has been shown by a number of airforces for the plane with the existing powerplant. The Chinese already have a look down shootdown radar manufactured for the plane. At present it does not appear that the Russians won't allow the export of the engine to Pakistan. Even if the Russians did it will only hurt them as I am sure that the Chinese will have an indiginous engine ready for the plane by the time the first 150 RD93 engines are used in the FC1. Pakistan will receive royalty for the sale of the planes and can continue it s R and D on upgrading the FC1. Pakistan has enough engines and spare parts to continue servicing the Mirage fleet for at least twenty yrs more. The Mirage are the most advanced planes in the Pakistan's inventory at present despite the 32 F16 A's. Endurance /range of the plane may be a problem with the Mirage at present but why not attempt add some conformal fuel tanks. As you will see the Israeli's have been changing plane designs (inc that of the Mirage 3) to develop new weapons platforms 20yrs ago. With CAD and new manufacturing techniques this process is now a lot cheaper and more reliable.

I can't see how the project JF17 is a failure and why Pakistan should ditch it in favour of the F16. I think the JF17 may be cause for concern to Western defence industries as well as India.

 

[Salman78]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Pakistan should look into the possibility of inducting the french M88 or some American engine into JF-17. I wonder if the lighting in the cockpit is NVG compatible. Does anyone know ?

 

[Oqaab]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Pakistan should look into the possibility of inducting the french M88 or some American engine into JF-17. I wonder if the lighting in the cockpit is NVG compatible. Does anyone know ?

Which version of M-88 u are talking. The M-88-3 is the best of the series and the M-88-4 is still under development.

The M-53-PX (P2 ??) that powers the Mirage 2000-5 would be suitable for JF-17 as far as thrust is concerned. But it needs more space since it is larger then RD-93.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Isn't it too late now?

 

[Oqaab]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Isn't it too late now?

I dont think so. China has bought 100 RD-93 engines for initial batches. We can wait till we start production of the aircraft in Pakistan.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The engine for the Rafale is fairly small. Will that be any good???

 

[Oqaab]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

No its not small enough to be fitted in JF-17. Even the M-53 is a bit larger and we need to make a lot of arrangements and changes to install that engine. BUt once M-53-P2 is installed, U will see a great difference in performance and payload.

 

[Tallgeese]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The FC-1/JF-17/J-9 is superior than just an 'upgraded MiG-21' & to be sure, the Indian MiG-21UPG 'Bison' is basically a beefed up MiG-21 with superior weapons systems to even the F-16A/B of the PAF. They can fire R-77 'AMRAAMski' & R-73M2 'Archer' with HMS. However, in field performance they are way behind the the FC-1/JF-17/J-9 (whatever you call it).

The JF-17 is by no means a 'third generation' design. It's true it falls short on top speed but in terms of field performance it's closer to an F-16A. Just for comparison, the F-16A carries three times the (maximum) payload of a Mirage 5 over nearly four times the (maximum) range. The JF-17 carries double the (maxium) payload of the Mirage 5 & just over double the (maximum) range but it also manoevres more like an F-16A & its electronics capacity is enormous compared to the Mirage 5. Certainly, with the KLJ-7 radar (KLJ-3 derivative) & the SD-10 (PL-12) BVR-AAM it will present India or anyone else with a serious opponent.

As for classifying the JF-17, I'd put it as a light-weight, multi-role fourth generation fighter. It's true it borrows from the aborted Super 7 & marries features of the F-16A but it uses a series 2 RD-33 (the RD-93) derivative & the design has been so refined that it is to the Super 7 what the F-20A is to the F-5E 'Tiger II' indeed, the F-20A is hardly a third generation fighter but is based on a refined third generation fighter with a fourth generation engine (the F-404) just as the JF-17 utilises the RD-93.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The FC-1/JF-17/J-9 is superior than just an 'upgraded MiG-21' & to be sure, the Indian MiG-21UPG 'Bison' is basically a beefed up MiG-21 with superior weapons systems to even the F-16A/B of the PAF. They can fire R-77 'AMRAAMski' & R-73M2 'Archer' with HMS. However, in field performance they are way behind the the FC-1/JF-17/J-9 (whatever you call it).

The JF-17 is by no means a 'third generation' design. It's true it falls short on top speed but in terms of field performance it's closer to an F-16A. Just for comparison, the F-16A carries three times the (maximum) payload of a Mirage 5 over nearly four times the (maximum) range. The JF-17 carries double the (maxium) payload of the Mirage 5 & just over double the (maximum) range but it also manoevres more like an F-16A & its electronics capacity is enormous compared to the Mirage 5. Certainly, with the KLJ-7 radar (KLJ-3 derivative) & the SD-10 (PL-12) BVR-AAM it will present India or anyone else with a serious opponent.

As for classifying the JF-17, I'd put it as a light-weight, multi-role fourth generation fighter. It's true it borrows from the aborted Super 7 & marries features of the F-16A but it uses a series 2 RD-33 (the RD-93) derivative & the design has been so refined that it is to the Super 7 what the F-20A is to the F-5E 'Tiger II' indeed, the F-20A is hardly a third generation fighter but is based on a refined third generation fighter with a fourth generation engine (the F-404) just as the JF-17 utilises the RD-93.

you are contradicting yourself
on the 2nd and the 3rd lines you have stated that the mig21bison is a beefed up version of mig21 with superior weapon systems to the paf f16a/b in the second para second line you have stated that the jf17 performance falls closer to the f16a/b.which means it is in no way superior to the mig21 bison.
if by field performance you meen maintainability then you can be rest assured the bison is completely diffrent from the mig21(none :coffee have crashed so far of the 120 india has currently india is upgrading 60 more)
the upgrades of the bison besides weapons and sensors include airframe,and limited stealth technology using a russian ram,in the recent indo-us excercise the bison proved to be the hardest to detect ,
the jf17 has a max speed of m1.6 as per the sinodefence while that of the bison is m2,the jf17 has a max weapon load of 3.6tons while that of bison 3 tons(i beleive it is 3.2 tons will confirm it and get back to you).:coffee

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Aaaditya, please read closely. He's tryin to say that the Bison is 'aimed' at coming to par with PAF F-16s but falls short on field performance in which case Jf-17 is much closely at par with a PAF F-16 than a Bison. I dont see how that is contradictory.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

well mysterious how would you define field performance (is it speed,max speed ,combat radius,ferry range ,weapons load ,manouverability or maintainence)even if we are to take all these factors into consideration then the jf-17 thunder is in no way superior to the mig21 bison.
ok let us compare the basic performance of jf-17 thunder and the mig21bis(not bison)
the jf-17 thunder has a maximum speed of m1.6(1900.80km/hr)
the mig21bis has a max speed of 1300miles/hr(2080kms/hr or m1.76) advantage mig21

the thunder has a combat radius of 1352kms(730nms) advantage jf-17
the vikram has a range of 1110kms(600nms)

the thunder has a 3600-3800 weapon load (advantage jf-17)
the vikram has 3000 weapon load so you see the jf-17 is not much superior to mig21 bis,i will compare it with the bison once i get hold of the figures.

 

[aaaditya]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

well mysterious how would you define field performance (is it speed,max speed ,combat radius,ferry range ,weapons load ,manouverability or maintainence)even if we are to take all these factors into consideration then the jf-17 thunder is in no way superior to the mig21 bison.
ok let us compare the basic performance of jf-17 thunder and the mig21bis(not bison)
the jf-17 thunder has a maximum speed of m1.6(1900.80km/hr)
the mig21bis has a max speed of 1300miles/hr(2080kms/hr or m1.76) advantage mig21

the thunder has a combat radius of 1352kms(730nms) advantage jf-17
the vikram has a range of 1110kms(600nms)

the thunder has a 3600-3800 weapon load (advantage jf-17)
the vikram has 3000 weapon load so you see the jf-17 is not much superior to mig21 bis,i will compare it with the bison once i get hold of the figures.

well here is the performance comparison betwean the thunder and the bison


THUNDER
Crew: One
Wingspan: 9.00 m
Length: 14 m
Height: 5.10 m
Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
+G Limit: 8.5

BISON

Crew, man 1
Weight, kg:
normal takeoff 8,800
fuel 2,390
Operational flight range without external fuel tanks, km 1,210-1,400
Maximum flight speed, km/h:
near ground 1,300
at height 2,175
Engine type R-25-300
Full reheat thrust, kgf 7,100
Service ceiling, m 17,300-18,000
Maximum operational g-load, g 8.5
Maximum rate of climb, m/s 220-290
Armament:
air-to-air missiles 4 x RVV-AE
2 x R-27R1
2 x R-27T1
4 x R-73E
6 x R-60M
air-to-surface missiles 1 x Kh-31A
2 x KAB-500KR(OD)
1 x Kh-31P
up to 2 x Kh-25MP
unguided aircraft rockets S-8, S-24
air bombs up to 10 x AB-100
4 x AB-250
2 x AB-500
Built-in gun mount:
type Gsh-23L
caliber, mm 23
ammunition load, rds 200
Aircraft dimensions, m:
length 15.76
height 4.5
wing span 7.15
SOURCES:www.sionodefence.com,http://www.eldon.sk/letectvo/mig_21_93.html


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[aaaditya]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

i could not get the weapon loads of the bison(though iam sure that it is 3 tons)
iam also trying to find out information on grifo radar and the kopyo x radar to compare them(some help will be appreciated here).

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

aaaditya, just give it up man. admit that the JF-17 is superior to the bison. no point in all these comparisons. at the end of the day i'm sure pakistan isn't spending millions on an aircraft which is at the bottom end of the IAF. And if you say that its superior then it's sure is superior to the LCA.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

aaaditya, just give it up man. admit that the JF-17 is superior to the bison. no point in all these comparisons. at the end of the day i'm sure pakistan isn't spending millions on an aircraft which is at the bottom end of the IAF. And if you say that its superior then it's sure is superior to the LCA.

P.A.F.,
How can you even compare the BiG 21 Bison's with the JF-17? JF-17 - engine unknown, radar unknown, armaments unknown. And how do you say that the LCA is inferior to the JF-17/MiG21 Bison?