JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Where would you rate JF17?

Anyone with the least bit of inteligence could tell this is a differnt platfrom, its easier to design a new AC from scratch rather then modify it. And this isn't a sub subsonic Jet, its designed to move to sub Trans and Super sonic, it requires a properly built airframe that can sustain breaking through the sound barier.

what would i rate this AC. i wouldn't have a clue since its electrics would determine what its capable of doing. its been listed as a Pure 3rd gen fighter i have no doubt it is. Although the PAF ACM was quoted saying that its less capable then the F-16C/d or the Belgium MLU Standard. the difference between the C/D would be the Armaments that it caries the Fire control systems the radars (Missions computer Hardware is off the shelf you can expect similarities), and the extra Algorithms which dictate Behavior of the AC, EW methods and Automated Algorithms (i tend to use the WORD AI with Caution). these are the Areas the AC could grow in, since the hardware used on the AC is Commercially available its upto PAF Software engineers to design newer cleverer Automated algorithms and install them during the Subsequent upgrades. Its again a Software driven Platform that i believe the majority of the Airforces are moving towards. COTS Hardware and Software driven Functionality.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Anyone with the least bit of inteligence could tell this is a differnt platfrom

Thanks for the sarcasm.

Now anybody with a bit of intelligence (notice the correct spelling) would realize that I never claimed them to be based on the same platform. I simply asked PAF where he would rate the JF17, since he seemed to have quite an opinion on that.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

[self edit]

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Mod Edit: Highsea: adsH, look again. I deleted both your's and Sri's responses.

Now, enough bickering. The topic is JF-17

well atleast you could of Told me that Before i went off claiming he deleted my messages nice thinking Highsea!!!. Could you tell me when you do something like that. Your absolutely annoying !!!

 

[webmaster]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Get back to the damn topic folks. Next time if there is a problem with spelling or anything, ask one of the mods for counseling. I don't really enjoy watching cat fights on our forums.

Highsea, thanks for breaking it off.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

sriranganQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
i read that as well. that is the indian claim. i think its a load of BS so don't listen to it!!!


Where would you rate JF17?

I don't know about the standard FC-1 but the JF-17 pakistan is purchasing with western avionics will be more like in the league of somewhere in the F-16 league. somewhere between block 15 and 32. however it is so stupid to make claims like JF-17 being equal to Mig-21 which was make like generations ago .

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

however it is so stupid to make claims like JF-17 being equal to Mig-21 which was make like generations ago

The MiG-21 Bisons are very capable even today you know.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

yes i understand that sri. and i respect your view. but most people would agree to the fact that the JF-17 will out do the performance of the Mig-21. i'm not saying the Mig-21 is worthless. i mean its a great aircraft which performed well in Cope india. but i just don't think that it is equal to the JF-17. it is inferior. (in my point of view anyway). and still has tonnes of room to be upgraded.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

yes i understand that sri. and i respect your view. but most people would agree to the fact that the JF-17 will out do the performance of the Mig-21. i'm not saying the Mig-21 is worthless. i mean its a great aircraft which performed well in Cope india. but i just don't think that it is equal to the JF-17. it is inferior. (in my point of view anyway). and still has tonnes of room to be upgraded.

Can't really debate for or against, so little information is out on the armaments, avionics and engine of the JF17. I guess we'll have to wait for those before we actually rate the JF17. Perhaps you have some sources that you'ld like to quote?

MiG 21 Bisons otoh are one of the most capable fighters in the Sub Continent especially given the role they have in the IAF.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

sri. india are making the LCA to replace the MiG-21, 23, 25 and jaguars. and i'm sure the LCA is much more superior to all these. no doubt about that. Now LCA is ment to be compared to the JF-17 not the MiG-21. The JF-17 has partly been made to compete against the LCA so they will obviously have more or less the same specs. If the MiG-21's where so capable then the IAF would keep on running them and there would be no need for the LCA. they may be good in exercises but I can tell you now that in a real time full scale war the MiG-21's would be flying coffin stones. they are old crippled aircraft. time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

sri. india are making the LCA to replace the MiG-21, 23, 25 and jaguars. and i'm sure the LCA is much more superior to all these. no doubt about that. Now LCA is ment to be compared to the JF-17 not the MiG-21. The JF-17 has partly been made to compete against the LCA so they will obviously have more or less the same specs. If the MiG-21's where so capable then the IAF would keep on running them and there would be no need for the LCA. they may be good in exercises but I can tell you now that in a real time full scale war the MiG-21's would be flying coffin stones. they are old crippled aircraft. time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.

True. JF-17's will be better than the MiG 21's. But how much better? That cannot be said unless we get the information about the engines, avionics and armaments. Btw the Bison's are expected to serve in the IAF till 2015.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

MiG 21 Bisons otoh are one of the most capable fighters in the Sub Continent especially given the role they have in the IAF.

Mig-21 They are still one the best in WVR.

But given the fact that they have been in service along time. I doubt they would be able to go head on with a newer AC which is based on a superior Platform of its generation.

Plus you have to acknowledge the fact that the JF-17 was intentionally designed for FBW flight. Other then that i doubt the Bisson is irrelevant.

I think LCA will be a challenge for the JF-17 since India would do what its better at doing hardware design and programming.

IAF realising the potential for continued utilization of the MiG-21 rightly decided to upgrade 125 MiG-21-BIS aircraft with Russian assistance. Upgrade program has commenced at Nasik Division of HAL and the program likely to be completed by 2005. Essentially, the features of upgrade are, Multimode Pulse Doppler Fire Control Radar (Kopyo), RLG based Inertial Navigation system with GPS, HUD, MFD, Helmet mounted sight, Weapon Aiming Computer, ECM, Mission Planning and Retrieval, CVR & FDR and flexible architecture of digital bus interface. MiG-21-BIS upgrade program is behind schedule and has faced inordinate delay due to various reasons, importantly instability of Russian Industry. These upgraded aircraft with plenty of airframe hours would serve the designated operational slot for at least a decade and a half.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE5-1/suresh.html

the Helmet Mounted sight should allow improve the kill rate for the AC, i must say its an impressive upgrade for a mig21.

Sri does it it have a datalink capability to either work with the Falcons.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

oh man they are pretty..

adsH i'll get back to that .. gtg now

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.

these Airframes are perfectly good for use. IAF has to reduce the Attrition rate by Fixing the Training and Maintenance Regimes. the mig-21 still have considerable time on there airframes. And i think the 125 upgraded have a considerable life left in them.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

adsHQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
time has passed and its time for that sort of tech/airframe to be replaced with more modern designs. So its only logic to say that the JF-17 is superior to the MiG-21.



these Airframes are perfectly good for use. IAF has to reduce the Attrition rate by Fixing the Training and Maintenance Regimes. the mig-21 still have considerable time on there airframes. And i think the 125 upgraded have a considerable life left in them.

They might be able to fly but the design is sure old!!! IAF has done as much as it possibly can to keep these Bisons going but they should be phased out in my opinion. they should be replaced with LCA's once fully finished.

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

They are being phased out, the 126 M-MRCA's and the 2008 Induction of the 40 LCA, bu the last of the MiG 21's shall be serving till 2012-15 as told by the Air Chief Marshal in a recent interview.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

sriranganThey are being phased out, the 126 M-MRCA's and the 2008 Induction of the 40 LCA, bu the last of the MiG 21's shall be serving till 2012-15 as told by the Air Chief Marshal in a recent interview.

Sri. do u have an appoximate number of how many MiG-21 india is planning to keep till 2012-15????

 

[srirangan]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Sri. do u have an appoximate number of how many MiG-21 india is planning to keep till 2012-15????

The upgraded Bisons (around 150) would be the last ones that shall be phased out. Really can't comment though as they depend on future events.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Ok. lets get back to the JF-17 topic

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The upgraded Bisons (around 150) would be the last ones that shall be phased out. Really can't comment though as they depend on future events.

they really have to reduce the number of types Platform being operated. maintenance must be a headache when you have so many AC types. Every aircraft that ages beyond a point requires a proportionate amount of Care. Frame weakness metal fatigue etc. so as the Migs get old they will be very costly to operate. i think the reason why they are being kept in service is to fill the Time it will take for IAF to replace the Migs 21. i don't think any part of the IAF Top brass wants to keep these AC flying.

srri back to my original question what kind of Datalink capability does the Bisson have it must have some sort of datalink. if there is a Datlink capability then i think the mig would be able to seriously threaten the JF-17.