JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

BilalK said:
I'm sure the engine problem isn't too big an issue, I mean the first odd 50 JF-17s will be armed with advanced Chinese avionics, to meet a possible urgent need for BVRAAMs. However, if the first 50 do enter production, y suggestion is that PAC and CAC start developing a JF-17 with a European engine, and Western Avionics, and make sure that version of JF-17 forms the PAF's remainder 100.
The engine may be the big issue caz the range or operational radius may depend on it or it may be depanding on how much fuel it carries I think JF-17's dosent have multibarrel cannon so it may be the drawback caz it can be used in a closer combat and can do a reasonable damage

After the F-16's experiation those engines can be fitted in these JF-17's or their desing will be coppied to develop a Paki version or the chinese one
 

adsH

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

kashifshahzad said:
After the F-16's experiation those engines can be fitted in these JF-17's or their desing will be coppied to develop a Paki version or the chinese one
Not possible the Integration of a new engine is just not the "Size" Issue its to do with Thrust, Structure, Size, Air Inlet/Outlets, weight issues, Electrics, Basically integrating a new engine would require Extensive modifications to the Engine management System-and subroutines. Possible redesign may be required. so you might see the whole CAD process again. then there is testing so its a long process. At this point if you try and integrate a new Engine the Jump back to redesign process would be costly your at a point in development Stage where any Jump from the testing would be Costly Very Costly. the Russians would not Denny the engine since they know there are Possible large Follow onn orders since allot of Air-force are interested in this low priced Jet.

and an eaisier way for PAf would be to Possibly get the Ukrainians to provide them with the Engine.
 

BilalK

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I doubt that RD-93 is an issue, we haven't seen any considerable delays (announced to the public) on the JF-17's development. However, my take is that when PAF takes delivery of its first 50, it and CAC will jointly develop a new JF-17 model, with a better engine, avionics, etc.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Once again, there is an ironclad 3 way contract for the RD-93 engines. No party can break it's commitment, without incurring hefty monetary penalties. It's from my sources(which btw have been spot on) take it at it's face value or not.
BTW good to see you here DF.
 

BilalK

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

As far as anything should be concerned about RD-93, all the stuff you hear about engine problems are BS, plain and simple.
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I think after having much JF-17's Pakistan must develop the engines indignously too because during the war or when the clouds of war will be arriving the engines supply can be cut because of external pressures so take extensive measures in this matter
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Maybe pakistans later versions of the JF-17 will have thrust vectoring engines:D
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

kashifshahzadQuote:
Originally Posted by P.A.F
Maybe pakistans later versions of the JF-17 will have thrust vectoring engines:D
Thrust vectoring engines are engines with adjustable nozzles. they make the aircraft manover much much better. indias Mig-29Ks have these as well as Su-30MKI's.
see pics below.
http://image05.webshots.com/5/4/42/43/66244243dFiBLw_fs.jpg
http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow01/zhukovsky/MiG-29OVTnozzles.jpg
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/vidcaps/su37-1_tvc_mpg_t3.jpg

the F-22 will have them aswell.
 
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P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

sorry the pics don't work. just search
"thrust vectoring engines" on google and you'll see.:)
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

kashgif you ask too many questions yaar. i've just told u. do some research for yourself.

the difference between the two engines is this.

Standard engines do not have rotating nozzles. the aircraft relyes on its rudders, flaps to manover.

Thrust vectoring engines have nozzles which actually rotates. this helps the aircraft to manover better then most other aircraft.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

http://www.dawn.com/2005/05/10/nat2.htm

KAMRA, May 9: Serial production of multi-role combat aircraft, JF-17 Thunder, would start at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) Kamra from 2007, said chief project director, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, while briefing journalists at the Complex on Monday.

The production of JF-17 would lessen the dependability of Pakistan Air Force on the fleet of the US made F-16’s as the first choice for combat operations as the new aircraft is designed to meet the requirements of the contemporary battle space with an ability to carry the latest BVRs (Beyond Visual Range Missiles).

Jointly developed by Pakistan and China, JF-17 is worth almost half the price tag of the $25 million US made F-16.

As dictated by the mission requirements, AVM Shahid said, JF-17 would be able to carry short range, Beyond Visual Range (BVR), anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missiles, high and low drag bombs, laser guided, runway penetration and cluster bombs.

A number of countries have placed advance orders for the purchase of JF-17, said AVM Shahid, adding, PAC Kamra would have the capacity to roll out 20 combat birds each year.

AVM Shahid said besides catering to the export orders of various countries, PAF has a demand of 150 JF-17s while China requires 250 JF-17s.

On the occasion, chairman PAC, Air Marshal Aurangzeb, briefed the journalists about production facilities at the complex and said Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Sri Lanka were among the list of customers for Mushshak and overhaul of FT-5 and F-7 aircraft.
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20050510-071006-6404r.htm



Analysis: Pakistan, China work on fighters


By Anwar Iqbal
UPI South Asian Affairs Analyst
Washington, DC, May. 10 (UPI) -- The multirole JF-17 aircraft Pakistan is building jointly with China is a mid-tech plane that fills in the gap between lower and upper technology, Brig. Shafqaat Ahmad, Pakistan's defense attaché in Washington, said.


Pakistan also is buying 24 F-16 jet fighters from the United States for its air force, leading to traditional rival India saying Islamabad has started an arms race in the region. Pakistan denies the charge.

"While we are acquiring the F-16s to meet our immediate defense requirements, the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that Pakistan is producing jointly with China has nothing to do with any arms race," Ahmad said.

He said some of the Chinese aircraft now in use in Pakistan would need replacement soon and the government had decided that sharing technology with China would be preferable to buying more aircraft. He said the bulk of these aircraft, three out of four, would go to China.

This explanation, however, does not satisfy India. Reports in the Indian media, quoting defense experts, say the JF-17s can be used to deliver nuclear weapons. The reports cited Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's remarks, during Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao's visit to the country last month, that Pakistan wanted to keep a minimum level of conventional and unconventional defensive deterrence. In New Delhi, this was interpreted that the JF-17 could be used to deliver nuclear weapons.

During the visit, Wen assured Musharraf China would help defend Pakistan's "sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity." In India, this was interpreted as meaning while China wants to improve its relations with New Delhi, it will continue its decades-long close defense and strategic ties with Pakistan.

Other Indian experts, such as Ashutosh Mishra of the Institute of Defense Studies and Analyses in New Delhi told reporters there was no reason to fear the JF-17s. He said these are slightly improved versions of the F-7 aircraft, which were equivalent to India's Russia-made MiG-21s, Pakistan now needs to phase out. India's Mig-21s have been replaced by newer versions.

The joint China-Pakistan venture first began in the late 1990s when Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif still ruled Pakistan. The aircraft was first called Super-7, then renamed FC-1 in 2001 and are now being produced as JF-17.

The planes are being built at Kamra, a cantonment located between Islamabad and the northwestern city of Peshawar at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, an organ of the Pakistan Ministry of Defense.

China's Nanchang Aircraft Manufacturing Corp. is also assisting Kamra in developing a new jet trainer known as Karakorum-8, or K-8.

Traditionally, Pakistan had depended on the United States for its weapon requirements, but when in 1990 the United States stopped all arms sales to Pakistan following a dispute over its nuclear program, Islamabad began to look at other options.

The sanctions grounded the F-16 aircraft Pakistan had purchased from Washington in the 1980s. Other mid-tech aircraft, such as F-6s, F-7s, A-5s and Mirages that Pakistan bought from other sources were aging and needed to be replaced. So in February 1992, Pakistan negotiated a deal with the China Aero-Technology Import and Export Corp., which had invited the Pakistan Air Force to invest in the Super-7 program in return for full participation in design and development, with exclusive co-production rights of up to 59 percent of the Super-7 airframe. The air force received Islamabad's approval in October 1994.

JF-17 is a lightweight, multirole, day-night, all-weather fighter with maximum takeoff weight of 2,700 kilograms, maximum speed 1.7 M, ceiling 16,500 meters, max weapon load 3,900 kilograms, range 3,000 kilograms. It would be equipped with a Russian engine, probably RD-33, that powers the MiG-29.

The Pakistani version would carry a European avionics suite that includes multimode Pulse Doppler radar, inertial navigation system and multi-function displays. Pakistan says it will fulfill 70 percent of its air force's operational requirements.

The JF-17 is designed to be fitted with a vast array of weaponry. Weapon load includes short- and medium-range anti-air missiles like AIM-9P/PL-9/Magic 2 and PL-11/Aspide/AIM-7E. In addition it includes new fly-by-wire flight control system and a true beyond visual range attack capability.

More important for Pakistan is that it will train the nation's engineers and mechanics in the art of aircraft making.

The first flight of the aircraft took place Sept. 04, 2003, and after flight testing, the Pakistan Air Force decided to start serial production. PAF plans to buy about 150 aircraft. China plans to acquire 250 aircraft.

Pakistani officials said they also intend to sell the JF-17 to other countries interested in mid-tech aircraft.

While briefing journalists at Kamra Monday, Air Vice Marshal Shahid Latif, the chief project director for the JF-17, denied media reports Russia had cancelled an agreement with China to provide engines for the aircraft. He said China continued to receive the engines and the supply will continue in the near future.

He said the JF-17 was a lightweight aircraft that can be refueled in the air.

"The JF-17 is strategically very important for our air force and it also has far-reaching implications both for the national defense and economic prosperity," he said.

He said under the agreement between the two countries, half the fighters would be produced on an assembly line in China while the other half would be made in Pakistan.

U.S. defense experts told London's Financial Times the JF-17 was no threat to the United States.

"If you want hundreds of planes to look size a sizable air force, it comes in handy," Richard Aboulafia, aviation analyst at the Teal Group, told the paper. "It does not come in handy in any other circumstances. If you put it head to head against an F-16 it would probably last about 5 seconds."

Michael O'Hanlon, defense analyst at the Brookings Institution, said the United States was less concerned with fighter jets produced by China.

"These are a couple of middle-range technological powers," said O'Hanlon to the newspaper. "I worry a lot more about Soviet-era MiGs and Su-27s and Israeli command and control and any help with their pilot training."
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

P.A.F which countries are the buyers of JF-17 thunders it is not mentioned above ???
 
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P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

i can't say. from what i know its china, pakistan, zimbabwe are interested, bangladesh and countries like that. can someone else say?
 

kashifshahzad

Banned Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

P.A.F said:
i can't say. from what i know its china, pakistan, zimbabwe are interested, bangladesh and countries like that. can someone else say?
I have read somewhere that this JF-17 is equal to the Russian Mig 21 so how these countries will be willing to buy this kind of plane in $15m :(
 

P.A.F

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

i read that as well. that is the indian claim. i think its a load of BS so don't listen to it!!!
 
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