JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[luccloud]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The Chinese if they ever were threatened like this, then people can be rest assured they would of Reverse engineered the Damn Engine Ages ago. Its in tehre nature to Study Tech that they get. Thats why Europe Does not sell Weapon systems to them.

Actually, if you read the newspaper, then u should realize that the reason Europe cannot sell weapon to China is because of a decade old ban. Even more important is that there are a lot talk in the EU about lifting a ban that prevent them from selling weapons to China, so I don't know where do you get your idea. Mod Edit: Highsea: unnecessary personal remark deleted. Read the Forum Rules, please

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Yes I am Aware of the French/German Ledaer Initiative. But if you read abit closer. You would realize that the French and the german Parliaments, the Peoples representatives to the Government are not with the Idea. Partly because the Government looks out for the Nation on the whole, that includes the Functional Economy. whereas the Parliamentarians have interests that they want the Govs to Satisfy. the Parliamentarians see the "Communist" (No Offense Intended) UNdemocratic and shall we say "Not with the Democratic World". This is why the Parliamentarians would never allow leaders to open the Weapon flood gates. Remember these Leaders depend on the Parliament for Approval of Laws without support Governments Collapse and elections Fires up.
the "Decade old" ban may have had been placed due to Mistreatment of Rights Activists, but that Ban shall hold for the forceable future since the Fear of China Stealing technology would Strike Feer in the Hearts of developers ie Governments. This includes the Overwhelming Support for the Continued Weapons Sale Ban.

 

[luccloud]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Yes I am Aware of the French/German Ledaer Initiative. But if you read abit closer. You would realize that the French and the german Parliaments, the Peoples representatives to the Government are not with the Idea. Partly because the Government looks out for the Nation on the whole, that includes the Functional Economy. whereas the Parliamentarians have interests that they want the Govs to Satisfy. the Parliamentarians see the "Communist" (No Offense Intended) UNdemocratic and shall we say "Not with the Democratic World". This is why the Parliamentarians would never allow leaders to open the Weapon flood gates. Remember these Leaders depend on the Parliament for Approval of Laws without support Governments Collapse and elections Fires up.

I really doubt that it's offensive to call the Chinese government communist because it's their offical party name but it's always seem kinda funny because I really doubt that China can still be consider as communist nowadays if u think about how their economy work.

The only thing that will keep the the ban to continue will be pressure From US and Japan. The fear about the possibility of China copying the technology will not be unneccessary as I can see China will probably be willing to pay a premium on those weapon so that the deal will include transfer of techonloy.

Beside, EU isn't the only that have such technology, so it's always better to sell the technoloy and use the money to develop better ones so that they can keep an edge on military.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I seem to recall reading that China has already procured either 50 or 250 RD-93 engines, I don't remember the number

High Sea Can u give me some source.
China does not have any aircraft that is fitted with RD-93 other FC-1.

SinoDefence says that China has procured five engines from Russian for powering prototypes.
http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/fc1.asp

One Russian-made RD-93 turbofans, rated 49.4kN dry or 81.4kN with afterburning. China has reportedly imported five RD-93s from Russia to power the prototypes, but agreement of further purchase and re-export of the engine in together with the fighter aircraft has yet been reached. China may seek to power the aircraft with an indigenously-developed powerplant

Is there any chance that China might have started development an domestic engine for JF-17 long ago???
Even if the development of the engine would begin now,How much time would it approximately take??

One Source says that Russia agreed to supply 100 RD-93's to China but
backed out becoz of pressure from India.

http://biiss.org/nuclear/April2001/30.HTM

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The Aircraft is a Joint Development so the Engine that is used in one Variant for PLA would be used for PAF, there is noway the Russians can deny PLA the Engine, since it would Piss off the Chinese. this End user Term falls into the Vague Area, where there are two end user but both are Developers too. I think there already is an agreement with the Chinese for the Supply, thats the reason why the Russians added the extra bit when they were stating the RD-93 would be Handed over to PAF, they said that supply of RD-93 would not be a violation of the Agreement Between India and Russia, the RD-93 is not a weapon.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

they said that supply of RD-93 would not be a violation of the Agreement Between India and Russia, the RD-93 is not a weapon.

Indirectly Engine powers a weapon,Russian defence minister clearly said that they will not sell the engine to pakistan though its not a weapon system.

Its not about agreement,Its about decades of old friendly Military relationship that forces Russia not give RD-93 to pakistan.
The same forces India not to buy anything from US.
Every country cannot be like france.

Russians can deny PLA the Engine, since it would Piss off the Chinese.

First of all PLAAF till now has no plans to aquire this aircraft,Shown less interest.
Russians may not deny Engine to China but it will deny for pakistan.

I think there already is an agreement with the Chinese for the Supply, thats the reason why the Russians added the extra bit when they were stating the RD-93 would be Handed over to PAF

Without the permission of Russia,China cannot sell JF-17 to anybody even for pakistan.
There is no agreement till now about the RD-93.Only some engines were supplied for powering prototypes.
Russia denies aircraft engines to Pakistan
http://dailymailnews.com/200412/01/news/115.html

MOSCOW—Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov has denied reports about the sale of its aircraft engines to Pakistan that can be fitted to Chinese fighter jets.
Reports had earlier said that Russia is to supply RD-93 jet engines, used in advanced MiG-29 fighters, for the Chinese FC-1 fighter being jointly developed with Pakistan.
“The deal is not yet final. In any case China would have to enter End User License Agreement like on all previous deals. We will not give the engines if Pakistan is shown as end-user, although it is not a weapon system,†Ivanov told reporters before leaving for New Delhi on Tuesday to finalise the defence agenda of the fifth Indo-Russian summit on December 3.
Pakistan and Russian Federation’s bilateral trade relations have been in the past under the influence of the global politics, which resulted in meagre trade volume. The trade statistics of previous five years reveal that the trade volume has been hovering around $ 66 million in 1998-99 to $ 154 million in 2003-2004, which clearly indicates that we are at the lowest ebb of bilateral trade despite having enormous potential. The percentage share of Pakistan’s trade in the total Russian trade is negligibly 0.057 only. Though the present trade balance favours Russia by 113 million dollar, however, this trade balance can be reduced if our Russian Counterparts import more from Pakistan.—INP

Just see the occasion,Ivanov said this when he was about to leave for India.
He obviously wanted to make Indian govt happy.

This isn't the first time India kept pressure on other countries not to supply weapons to pakistan.
(1)US on F-16.
(2)Belgium on F-16
(3)Qatar on Mirage-2000-5.
(4)Russia on Mig-29 and Su-27.
and finally on RD-93 (Though not a weapon)


I think China is capable of building Similar version of RD-93

 

[luccloud]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Indirectly Engine powers a weapon,Russian defence minister clearly said that they will not sell the engine to pakistan though its not a weapon system.

Its not about agreement,Its about decades of old friendly Military relationship that forces Russia not give RD-93 to pakistan.
The same forces India not to buy anything from US.
Every country cannot be like france.


First of all PLAAF till now has no plans to aquire this aircraft,Shown less interest.
Russians may not deny Engine to China but it will deny for pakistan.

Without the permission of Russia,China cannot sell JF-17 to anybody even for pakistan.
There is no agreement till now about the RD-93.Only some engines were supplied for powering prototypes.
Russia denies aircraft engines to Pakistan
http://dailymailnews.com/200412/01/news/115.html

Just see the occasion,Ivanov said this when he was about to leave for India.
He obviously wanted to make Indian govt happy.

I think both China and Pakistan will not be dumb enough to push the JF-17 development foward without having certainity that they will able to accquire the engine.

May I remind you that India did buy some weapon from USA recently for india's own special force so I really doubt how much force does this "old friendly Military relationship " you claim have.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

China is not selling JF-17 to Pakistan its Produceing it with Pakistan, Pakistan is not Just an End user of JF-17 it is also a developer. So Russia cannot prevent any deliveries of JF-17 to PAF except hold back the ENgines. In that case Chinese would deal with the Russians, and the Chinese would provide a subsitute.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I think both China and Pakistan will not be dumb enough to push the JF-17 development foward without having certainity that they will able to accquire the engine.

There is now way Chinese are going to stop the development of JF-17.
Pakistan has given 150Million Dollars for development of FC-1/JF-17.
Chinese will surely design a new engine similar to RD-93 or a Copy of RD-93.

But question did they start the development or they did not thinking that russia will continously supply RD-93 for production of JF-17???

Even if they start the development now then how much time would it take??

China is not selling JF-17 to Pakistan its Produceing it with Pakistan, Pakistan is not Just an End user of JF-17 it is also a developer. So Russia cannot prevent any deliveries of JF-17 to PAF except hold back the ENgines. In that case Chinese would deal with the Russians, and the Chinese would provide a subsitute.

What has pakistan developed for JF-17 ???
Till I know they gave money for the development.

Just like India jointly developing Fifth Generation Fighter with Russia.
Actually India will develop very less for the fighter but will fund for the project so that India engineers will have some experience in developing a stealth fighter.

May I remind you that India did buy some weapon from USA recently for india's own special force so I really doubt how much force does this "old friendly Military relationship " you claim have.

LOL.
Engines,Weapon Locating Radars,FBW system etc this all what India buyed from USA.
Each of them would not cost more than 30Million Dollars.
If I begin to list out what India has buyed from Russia/Soviet union, it will not end.
Su-30MKI,T-90S,Gorshkov,Kilo,Mig-29,Krivak-III,Klub,..... etc 70% of what India Military has is aquired from Russia.
Each of these deals cost in Billions of Dollars.

Friendly Military relationship is not entirely Buying and selling of weapons but giving moral support in case of war,Which Russia did during every war India Fought.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

According to AFM articles back dated Issue which were about PAF s Capability, it outlined Pakistan’s Role in the development of the J-10 Avionics Suite where Engineers of the PAF were guiding Chinese counterparts on Specifications requirements and ETC of Technologies, the Chinese have the Skills and the man power but they need guidance towards developing technology related to the Current War Doctrines.

PAF is the Designer and Integrator of the JF-17 avionics Packages, there involvement seems to stretch from the Inception stages to the deployment stages. This is why PAF is so adamant on procuring these AC rather then the J-10 which has not been developed specifically to meet the requirements of PAF

 

[hovercraft]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The JF-17 will be powered by one Klimov RD-93 turbofan, (an upgraded version of RD-33) which generates more thrust and being more fuel efficient then its previous version. The engine gives 11,000 pounds (49.4 kN) dry and 18,300 pounds (81.4 kN) of thrust with afterburning. The engine will be built in China under license.

http://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.htmlhttp://www.pakistanidefence.com/PakAirForce/superSeven.html

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The JF-17 will be powered by one Klimov RD-93 turbofan, (an upgraded version of RD-33) which generates more thrust and being more fuel efficient then its previous version. The engine gives 11,000 pounds (49.4 kN) dry and 18,300 pounds (81.4 kN) of thrust with afterburning. The engine will be built in China under license.

http://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.htmlhttp://defencetalk.com/wdb/airsystems/fighters/FC-1-JF-17_Thunder.html

That is an onld news.
Now Russia Clearly said that it won't give RD-93 if pakistan is shown as an end-user.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

That is an onld news.
Now Russia Clearly said that it won't give RD-93 if pakistan is shown as an end-user.

it wont give it but it can't restrict China from supplying the License built versions, if Russia holds back the license then China will simply ignore the license issue.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

it wont give it but it can't restrict China from supplying the License built versions, if Russia holds back the license then China will simply ignore the license issue.

In any case if China violates the agreement Russia will simply refuse to supply the Engines and spares to China.
How will China Simply ignore it???
But Still the deal for the RD-93 itself is not signed.

However India will make sure that Pakistan will not get the Russian Engine.

 

[asaracen]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Stating the obvious - the key components on an aircraft are engine and avionics.
With JF17, the situation is still fluid on both accounts. Russia would not allow its engine to be exported to Pakistan, and the Europeans have arms embargo against China. Until these crucial areas are sorted, JF17 is flying no where fast. Forget about PAF induction in 2006.
But the hope is that the Europeans will lift embargo in the next 6 months, and somehow Russia could be convinced to change their decision on RD 93.

Aircrafts are progressively developed over decades, so these are early days for JF17. It would certainly become the work horse of PAF sooner or later.

 

[fieldmarshal]

PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year
​

By Hanif Khalid​

​

source http://jang.com.pk/thenews/​

ISLAMABAD: The first squadron of ultramodern fighter planes, JF-17 Thunder, would be inducted in the Pakistan Air Force fleet in the middle of next year.

This squadron will consist of six supersonic warplanes being jointly built by Pakistan and China. Engineers and technicians from both the countries have started building five prototype fighter planes. The prototype project is likely to be completed within a couple of months.

A highly placed source has confirmed that the PAF would induct 150 JF-17 fighters in phases. These planes would be equipped with latest avionics, most of which are being jointly developed by the two countries. These would be inducted in the PAF to replace Chinese origin warplanes, A-5 and F-7, which are completing their stated life. It is learnt that the China Air Force would induct more than 500 JF-17 fighter planes during coming years.

The project was conceived during the then prime minister Nawaz Sharif’s first regime in the early 90s. The first test flight of the supersonic jet was successfully conducted in September 2003 in China. It is learnt that the production cost of this medium technology fighter would be significantly less than the international market price of such state-of-the-art planes.

 

[berry580]

Re: PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

Well it's indeed astonishing that China is using JF-17 in masses.
It sounds much more valid over the theory that J-10's being inducted in less number (200-300) which matches the 'local war under hi-tech condition' thing.

 

[Red aRRow]

Re: PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

Hmmm the source (Jang News) is quite notorious when it comes to military reporting. But lets see 500 planes for PLAAF wow that would be something.

 

[adsH]

Re: PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

Well it's indeed astonishing that China is using JF-17 in masses.
It sounds much more valid over the theory that J-10's being inducted in less number (200-300) which matches the 'local war under hi-tech condition' thing.

Its not about the Masses i think the Pakistanis and the Chinese are using the same Avionics systems, designed by Pakistanis engineered by Chinese and built by the chinese. Pakistanis have more experience flying around in US and other Western AC. so naturally they would have more western Engineering experience, hence-they become consultants. The JF-17 and the J-10 as i see it would end up having more or less the same Avionics. except the JF-17 would be the cheaper version of the J-10. since the The J-10 would have TVC and various other structural difference that make it superior to JF-17. the JF-17 would remain the 3rd gen fighter because it would be classed as one. this does not mean that its avionic system would be less capable then the J-10.

If china Procures 500 of these then the price tag for these AC would fall bellow 15 mill US $ For sure. And the chinese need to develop a strong Backbone backed by a good class Fighter for there Air-force.

 

[SABRE]

Re: PAF to induct first squadron of JF-17 jets next year

All the articals I have read so far about Jf-17 & J-10 say that they would replace F-7 & A-5(Q-5) while many PAF officials have indicated that both F-7 & Q5 will stay as long as China is producing them & up-grading them. China is now upgrading the F-7PG to next version & Q5C has just been upgraded to Q5D...I remember having chat with PF-X abt Q-5..although Q5 looks ugly & old but its features & characterisitcs are amazing. I mean the AC can completely destroy any tank in the world when backed by Air Superiority.
JF-17 may help Pakistan China create a back bone of their Force but next gen F-7s & Q5s will probably stay till 2015 even if they have got masses of JF-17 & J-10.
Q5 will definitly stay cause its best Ground attack AC both Pakistan & China have. F-7PGs will be upgraded to F-7K & might be used for Air Support Superiority & Air-War training.
Hope that the new F-7 like MiG-21 Bison can attack multiple targets at a time. PAF asked France to intigrate Mirage 3 & 5 with multi targeting facility on which France is yet to reply. If this happens than Mirage 3 & 5 may servive till 2015 as well.

Remember what ever JF-17 can do it can never be a strong ground attack, its light weight so its body is weak. Q5 r made heavy & their bodies r strong & can take on alot of damage PS the cockpit is builet proof. So the JF-17 & J-10 can never be a good ground attack ACs & replace Q5. To replace Q5 China will have to develop a new Ground attack AC, but at the moment Q5D r even better than Russian Su-25.