JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[VICTORA1]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Hello guys,
Sorry MOD, can anyone give an example where an american high tech jet engine, or simple piston engine or your basic turbo diesel engine, or a gas trubine, that has been successfully reverse engineered by china, russia, india or pakistan and has the same capability and standards as the original american equipment. Or any other major item that has been reverse engineered to the same ability and standards as the original one.

Maybe we should have a thread---reverse engineering---to be or not to be.

 

[corsair7772]

i dont know about aircraft but if your talkin about SAMs then you can check out the FT-2000 which embodies PAC features or the KS-1 which features Improved HAWK SAM features both of which appear to be in service with Israel, a prime source of US technology for china. But ive got my own theory about the chinese reverse engineering the Al-31 into the WS-10. US engines must be a bit harder 2 figure out.

 

[gf0012-aust]

US engines must be a bit harder 2 figure out.

The new chinese cruise missiles are almost a cloned copy of a tomahawk. There are indicators that China bought some of the units that failed to operate properly in 1991.

The engine technology would be available by now, China has been buying complete small business jets - some of them use exactly the same engines as the cruise missiles (ie a Williams turbojet)

 

[Aegis]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Maybe china get some Tomahawk from Iraqi! The fallen one from Gulf War? :idea2

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Maybe china get some Tomahawk from Iraqi! The fallen one from Gulf War? :idea2

Thats what I was alluding to.

 

[muslim282]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

HighSea

Thanks for the contribution. You make the the most sense so far and seem to be well versed on the subject and have a good academic and practical understanding.
Now regarding the JF-17.
As we know the country in most need of this is pakistan. China will only ( if they do) use it in limited numbers.
China will move the entire production process to pakistan as has been discussed and was mentioned by the late Air Force Head who died in a plane crash.
What l was trying to get across was that once the JF-17 is produced and fully manufactured in pakistan, it will give the country a massive leap in the military aviation field therfore in the future leading to pakistan possibly developing future versions of the plane tailored to its own needs.
ln 10 years to come this plane will be seen as an entirely pakistani project as the saab became the mushak and further improvements by the pakistanis led to the supermushak. ( not bad for a donkey riding nation hey VICTORA).
l think racist comments like those made by victora earlier are uncalled for,
and an APOLOGY wouldn,t be far fetched.
HIGHSEA
my work involves dealing with both researching and developing new coatings ( paints and polymers ) for various military equipment, we are often involved in studying products of rival companies and equipment, we often come across alot of hurdles but in many cases have overcome these.
You probably understand the importance of coatings technology on planes, missiles and other military equipment.
My point l emphasised earlier was not that reverse engineering is easy, but that a misslie like the tomahawk in the hands of the chinese gives them a gigantic leap in knowing about new technologies which they could then apply and try on what they allready know.

 

[SABRE]

US engines must be a bit harder 2 figure out.

The new chinese cruise missiles are almost a cloned copy of a tomahawk. There are indicators that China bought some of the units that failed to operate properly in 1991.

The engine technology would be available by now, China has been buying complete small business jets - some of them use exactly the same engines as the cruise missiles (ie a Williams turbojet)

During the Clinton rule in 1998-99 when USA attacked Afghanistan one of the cruise missiles landed in Balochistan province of Pakistan, un exploded. I dont remember Pakistan returning it, may be it was given to China for revrese enginering. Now both China & Pakistan are about to test their cruise missiles. If Pakistan's cruise missile is some where near Tomahawk, than its a USA technology.

Anyways back to JF-17 Now !!

 

[mani395]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

During the Clinton rule in 1998-99 when USA attacked Afghanistan one of the cruise missiles landed in Balochistan province of Pakistan, un exploded. I dont remember Pakistan returning it, may be it was given to China for revrese enginering. Now both China & Pakistan are about to test their cruise missiles. If Pakistan's cruise missile is some where near Tomahawk, than its a USA technology.

China's cruise missile r more based on russian stuf likes of KH55
600km already tested
with 1500km version is under tests
and 2500km underdevelpoment
go to for more on this vectorsite.net

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

During the Clinton rule in 1998-99 when USA attacked Afghanistan one of the cruise missiles landed in Balochistan province of Pakistan, un exploded. I dont remember Pakistan returning it, may be it was given to China for revrese enginering. Now both China & Pakistan are about to test their cruise missiles. If Pakistan's cruise missile is some where near Tomahawk, than its a USA technology.

China's cruise missile r more based on russian stuf likes of KH55
600km already tested
with 1500km version is under tests
and 2500km underdevelpoment
go to for more on this vectorsite.net

Than we ll just have to wait to see how Pakistan's crusie missiles come about. We cant beat on the Chinese door for every thing. We have to do something on our own too, even when it comes to stealing technology from that accidently landed on your soil.

 

[rajupaki]

The FC-1 is at the same level of an upgraded Mig 21, the sources are www.fas.org. Mig-33 is basically an interceptor like the Mig 21, and it was rejected by the Chinese and is called the J-9. Therefore its inferior to the J-10 which is inferior to the LCA.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fc-1.htm

Also if you check LCA it says that it would equal the Eurofighter which is better then the Rafale or F-16. On Bharat-Rakshak it says that the Kaveri engine that is used for the LCA will have a second variant which would jhave TVC, and supercruise. Check: Bharat-rakshak.com

The Iranian fighter is another fighter that would be superior to the FC-1, which I heard would host Indian software which is as good as the Americans. Since India got the FBW from the US, when they collaborated on the LCA project and this is equal to the F-16XL. If the Iranian fighter carries Indian software it would be more superior then the FC-1. Check this out...

Azarakhsh

http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/azarakhsh.htm

Hey bharat are u mad? u are resemblink FC-1/JF-17 TO you flying coffins? No country will spend 7 years in making an aircraft which it already has in its inventory.

 

[SABRE]

The FC-1 is at the same level of an upgraded Mig 21, the sources are www.fas.org. Mig-33 is basically an interceptor like the Mig 21, and it was rejected by the Chinese and is called the J-9. Therefore its inferior to the J-10 which is inferior to the LCA.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fc-1.htm

Also if you check LCA it says that it would equal the Eurofighter which is better then the Rafale or F-16. On Bharat-Rakshak it says that the Kaveri engine that is used for the LCA will have a second variant which would jhave TVC, and supercruise. Check: Bharat-rakshak.com

The Iranian fighter is another fighter that would be superior to the FC-1, which I heard would host Indian software which is as good as the Americans. Since India got the FBW from the US, when they collaborated on the LCA project and this is equal to the F-16XL. If the Iranian fighter carries Indian software it would be more superior then the FC-1. Check this out...

Azarakhsh

http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/azarakhsh.htm

Hey bharat are u mad? u are resemblink FC-1/JF-17 TO you flying coffins? No country will spend 7 years in making an aircraft which it already has in its inventory.

What the hack!. MiG33=21+chinese rejected it. LCA is equal to EF-2000 & Superior to J-10!!!! Iranian Jet is superior to JF-17 cause it has Indian technology onboard.

This is pure rubish Bharat. I think its time Bharat_Raksah closes down it self. 1st MiG-33 was superior to MiG-21 & it were Russians who rejected it not Chinese. The project never went into physical development cause on paper it said single engine Jet. Russians dont fly single engine Jet. JF-17 is based on two projects: 1-Super 7 & 2-MiG-33. Its a modified combinition.With Pakistan's cooporation It has been modified in such a way that it can battle Su-27 & 30. It has BVR system. & I doubt LCA is design to battle SU-27 & 30. The only problem JF-17 has against Su-27 n 30 is range and alltitude but as long as Su-27 or 30 is in its reach or inside Pakistan, JF-17 will be a pain in the @$$ for it.
J-10 is faaaaaarrrrrr superior to LCA. LCA is nothing but flying machine compared to J-10. J-10 is 4th Gen Fighter. It can destroy LCA before LCA knows what hit it.
LCA can not be compared to EF-2000, its the 2nd best in the world. My God think of it EF-2000 & LCA. Keep thinking. There are no similartites, just differences. EF-2000 is capable of destroying Su-27,30 and even F-15s. Rafale comes 3rd. LCA is no where near to Rafale. Both These jets come 2nd and 3rd to F-22 Raptor & Dont say LCA is equal to F-22.
Iranian Jet Superior to JF-17 just because it has Indian Software.
This is nothing but pure Indian sentimentism. Any thing that has made in India on it is great.
Majority of ppl, not only on ths forum but also on others, not only Pakistanis or Chinese but others have evaluated JF-17 better than LCA.
The only Leaguse LCA belongs to is JF-17. This is the only new Jet that LCA has right to compare it self too.

Rest is bull $h!t !!! Can any one believe it LCA=Ef-2000. Its better than Rafale & J-10. Which makes it better than Su-27,30,MiG21, MiG29,Mirage2000-5, Jaguars etc. I think India will have to remove all its jets. LCA is alone doing fine job for them.

I think they have wrote this after the statement from IAF official that "we are waisting good money on bad project". Its a cover up & a very poor one.

UMAIR IF U READ THIS, GIVE THIS GUY SPECS OF JF-17 & HOW IT CAN BATTLE SU-27 & 30 (& if it can battle Su-27 n 30 It can surely give a kick of a life to LCA. J-10 is superior to JF-17, so it will give much harder a kick n Rafale & EF-2000 being superior to J-10, wont even like to go up against some thing that is not in its league. They will use some old aircraft with better equipment on board)

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I think Mr. Bharat needs a good reality check before he can proceed on posting in other threads with such misinformed facts. :smokingc:

 

[umair]

Poin t him 2wards jat2000's posts!(my keyboard's gone to the dogs.Am copy pastin)

 

[gf0012-aust]

Poin t him 2wards jat2000's posts!(my keyboard's gone to the dogs.Am copy pastin)

Well, I'm not going to repeat myself again.

 

[muslim282]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Please my aviation illiterate friends, before trying to compare the LCA to the EF-2000, RAFALE or even the J-10, try to get the credentials of these planes and look at the aviation history and technical expertise of the companies and nations involved in the production and development of such aircraft and the stupid comparrisons will soon stop.
The JF-17 is not based on the Mig33, it was more a case of the continuation of the project that was cancelled by the americans after the tianamen square incident. ( hence the JF17 resembles more the F20 tigershark ).
The chinese and pakistanis remodified the plane to their own needs, and this did involve russian expertise as lockheed martin had pulled out of the original project. Please do not confuse the two.
The JF17 has not yet been completed in terms of avionics, BUT and this is a big BUT will continue to evolve as newer avionics and technology is produced ie:- as did the F16, block 30, 50 etc.
So the first JF17 that will be handed to the PAF will not be the same as the one that comes 5 years after that. The JF17 has room for continual upgrade and will therefore evolve as an excellent fighter and multirole aircraft.
Pakistan is also already experimenting with composites and radar absorbing materials and also the possible newer avionics and associated equipment that will soon be hitting the market, radars, weapons, obogs etc.
Now to compare the mig21s (flying coffins as the INDIAN PRESS calls them) to the JF17 indicates a pathetic understanding of military aviation. The Pakistani F7MG,s are far more capable than the indian Mig21s,23,27s.
The JF17 is a project almost ready for production while on the other hand the LCA as said by the indian press and many ministers is a waste of time and money having gained no significant results . lt has far exceeded its budget and is now a face saving project so as not to upset the indian public and press. PAF pilots have already put the JF17 through it,s paces.
l read one forum in which indians boasted that the LCA planes would kill trained pakistani pilots in Gripens at a ratio of 7:1 :
l TELL YOU WHAT "I WET MYSELF LAUGHING" AS MOST OF YOU ARE READING THIS.
Please lets not make such stupid comparrisons.
Even the indian SU30,s wouldn,t be able to stop Gripens. Especially with pakistani pilots flying them.
JF17 & J10 a reality
EF2000,Gripen,Rafale Quality
LCA a possibility

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

muslim282, I think thats enough beating. He got the point & hes not coming back. Well the quote on which u laughed ur self wet, I too ve to make a confession. It have done the same : : :
1-LCA beating Gripens.
2-LCA (which will be flew by meager Indian Pilots) kill Gripens being flew by Pakistani top stars.
3-IAF winning at the ratio of 7:1. lols. Even the only war Indians won, IAF never gained victory over Pakisatn. Even when they had big line up of MiG-19, MiG-21, Hunters, Vempires & Gnat. We had only 3; Sabres, Mirage3 & Star fighters in the battle. & the most successful Jets which came out of the war were sabres, which many, even in USAF considered to be pathetic.
In 1965 India had MiG21s pilled up for action, but only one flew in the entire war. Why? because all other MiG-21 were destroyed by PAF.
So IAF has to fly LCA first than think of fighting with PAF fighters in gripens. that is if we get gripens.
BTW PAF wont send Gripens,EF-2000 or Rafale (If they had them)+ F-16s to fight LCA. they would send Mirage3 n 5 or F-7PG.

anyways enough beatings for this guy. he should stay with bharat rakshak where such pathetic statements r considered to be true.

anyways, this is JF-17 thread not LCA. Lets get back to the JF-17 topic.
F-20 u say. I saw F-20 pics & there is quite some similarities in the looks of both fighter Jets. Northrop grumman made F-20 to compete lockheed-martins F-16s. USAF choose F-16s over F-20. Here r some pics of F-20.

catch more pics from here: http://afbase.cafe24.com/acdata/fig/f-20.php

 

[P.A.F]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

pakistani pilots have flown these but i don't know which airforce it was with.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

pakistani pilots have flown these but i don't know which airforce it was with.

R u talking about F-20. I dont know if any one out side USAF has flew the Jet. U know northorp Grumman tends to compete against LockHeed-Martin (Mostly it fails). F-20 was a project in competence with F-16s. USAF flew both & chose F-16s over F-20. I dont know if even USAF is flying them any longer.
I think the Sabre-2 project (umair keeps talking about it) northorp grumman had been after was the modified version of F-20. They started with chinese but backed out in the end & later Pakistan pitched in.
If u compair the looks ofJF-17 with F-20 u ll see alot of similarities & I mean alot, specialy the tail. The main difference I see in the looks of JF-17 & F-20 is the that F-20 is straight in shape from the bottom & Jf-17 is bit convexed. Other vise they look quite identical.

Seems like JF-17 is modified combinition of F-20, MiG-33 & J9 (Upgrade version=Super-7)

thanks to Muslim282, for bringing F-20 to my mind. I had never thought JF-17 could have been eracted from F-20. Now it seems that Sabre-2 project was based on upgrading of F-20s.

so now u have got Pakistan, china & two hidden helping hands of Northorp grumman & Mikayun Grunvich (MiG) or what ever it is. Its like Pakistan+China+USA+Russia project.
This I assure u that F-20 is still way better than LCA, so please my Indian friends dont g on cmparing LCA with it. F-20 is F-16 varient.
So if JF-17 is based on F-20 & some sections basd on MiG-33 than it can be made into hall of a Jet.
Let me find out the F-20's specs along with Jf-17. C if there is other things common between the two, other than the looks.

 

[Red aRRow]

SABRE PAF did test the Tiger shark in the Mojave desert in the US but decided in favor of the F-16 under the peace gate program.

 

[muslim282]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

A possible future version of the JF17 in time to come may look something like this.

Long range multiple tracking and engagement radar.
Composites and Radar absorbant materials (currently being tested by pakistan).
Internal fuel tanks (as on the F16)
Newer software computer systems, FBW, Touch screen LCD,s.
OBOGs.
Helmet mounted display (currently PAF is looking at the ukrainan and chinese ones being developed).
BVR will be a definate, ukranian missiles, SD10 and darter series.