JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

A possible future version of the JF17 in time to come may look something like this.

Long range multiple tracking and engagement radar.
Composites and Radar absorbant materials (currently being tested by pakistan).
Internal fuel tanks (as on the F16)
Newer software computer systems, FBW, Touch screen LCD,s.
OBOGs.
Helmet mounted display (currently PAF is looking at the ukrainan and chinese ones being developed).
BVR will be a definate, ukranian missiles, SD10 and darter series.

Hmmm. Possible future versions r very much possible. Anyways most of the equipment u r placing on JF-17 have already been discussed by the Pakistan-China makers & some have already been put on. PAF will equip its JF-17 with Long Range Multiple tracking & engagement radar regardless of future or current version. In air refueling facility has already been discussed & approved, so may be JF-17 will do that with internal fuel tanks. Softwares I dont know, LCD touch screen would be cool. Cant say about Helmet mounted display. BVR is most probably going to be Chinese. Pakistan China are already makin one so I think only that would be put on board.

Since u r ve mentioned Ukrain, I have question for all those who can answer. Whats going on between PAF & Ukrain? I mean ukrain is offering PAF Su-27s. And it has opened doors t Pakistan for various other airforce equipments. I mean is there a secret deal involved? Des Pakistan has some thing that Ukrain wants badly?

 

[muslim282]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

l suppose their is alot of truth in the facts even though both the chinese and pakistan have been tight lipped.
The FC1 is more suited to pakistans needs than the PLAAF.
l believe that the entire manufacturing of the FC1 will eventually take place in pakistan. As china will and can then concentrate on other projects. Even the RD93 will be fully produced in pakistan as Russia cannot stop this, due to the fact that the chinese can quiet easily reverse engineer this engine as was reported by AFM and then give it a new name and let the pakistanis manufacture it. So the russians simply had to accept it.
China had also offered to build an F7 assembly line in pakistan (janes world of military planes) but this was refused by pakistan. This was mainly due to the fact that the FC1 project was more important and knowing that this was also going to be built in pakistan, hence the F7 assembly line was refused.
The technology transfer issue is mainly regarding the avionics and weapons packages. But current negotiations with South Africa, Sweden, Italy, France and the Ukraine have been quiet fruitfull.
The ltalian radars will be assembled in pakistan and will lead to the licensed manufacture of them.
The H4 BVR has already been tested ( probably a copy of the Darter series)
and is now claimed as an indegenous missile, indicating technology transfer.
Within the next 5-10 years the FC1/ JF17 will be an entirely pakistani project giving pakistan a gigantic leap in military aviation. We will see more capable and advanced versions of the JF17, major R&D also.
The J10 will also be a part of the PAF in the future. (nobody can doubt that)
l also think that PAF will also be making a major purchase of at least one western fighter to supplement the JF17 and other planes. This l believe will be the Mirage2000 (if india don,t purchase it in large numbers) or the Gripen (which l pefer), both will come with an overall package including further help in bettering and improving certain aspects of the JF17 (mainly avionics).
Swedish companies are already looking at getting a slice of the JF17 project as sweden is now easing up on its sales of military equipment to pakistan.
(AWACS sale almost complete).
l believe that the JF17 will far exceed the expectations of most people and will definatley surprise a few over the next 5 years. l think the pakistanis are staying tight lipped for a reason and working extremely hard.
On the other hand indian ministers are calling the LCA a waste of time, money and resources.
With the limited budget the pakistanis worked on, they have far out done the indians and achieved results.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I dont know if Swedish would help in JF-17 project. It would rather prefer to sell Gripens to Pakistan, so they could earn more money, than giving Pakistan just few parts to help it make its own jet, which might some day end up like Gripens. Just like France. France wants Pakistan to buy Mirage2000-5,9 or Rafales rather than giving Pakistan its equipment to put it on JF-17.

anyways if France & Sweden cooporate than JF-17 will be one hack of a Jet.

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Sweden is really uptight about a country essentially run by a dictator... so helping our military in ANY way would imply that they support dictatorship... so no Gripens until then, and also no help with JF-17. But we don't really need their help. French Avionics are superior to Swedish, and the French are more willing to help. Italians are also willing.

 

[ashoaib]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

French are not willing at all to help in JF-17 because if they help, it will reduce Pakistan's willingness to buy mirages and they dont want to do that. Thats why they didnt give the equipment which Pakistan tried to get for JF-17. I think the only country in the west which can help in JF-17 project is Italy. Currently they are providing the radar technology.
I agree with you Lando; Swedish have some rules and they follow them they will never do anything which look likes the support of dictatorship but on the other hand they sold AWACS to Pakistan recently after our dictator visited Sweden this mean they dont take him as dictator.
This world is very difficult for Pakistan no modern country like to sell high tech equipment to us, so we have to adopt a long term plan for building our own high tech equipment for JF-17.

 

[ashoaib]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Well I read that some JF-17s will be fitted with J-10 radars its a good news. J-10s are good. Why the swedish radars are not going to be fitted?

 

[The Watcher]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

heard china is having trouble getting russia to supply engines for JF-17 which would delay induction of the fighter but this news is saying its happening in '06?

Pak to induct Chinese JF-17 fighters in ‘06

Pakistan's Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat has said that the Air Force will begin induction of JF-17 (Thunder) fighter aircraft next year.

Pakistan and China have jointly manufactured JF-17 (Thunder), also known as the "next generation aircraft". The aircraft had its maiden flight early this year and the officials believe the aircraft will help PAF overcome shortage of combat aircraft.

The PAF has inducted Chinese origin F-7 PG aircraft, additional Mirages, CASAs CN-235 aircraft and MI-171 helicopters to its inventory, he added.

India has been opposing delivery of the jets to Pakistan, which says that proposed induction of the F-16s is part of modest acquisition programme.

The US administration had recently approved three weapon deals worth 1.2 billion dollars for Pakistan, which includes eight P-3C surveillance aircraft for Pakistan Navy.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1208464,0005.htm
only seen indian media interested in this news so i advise caution.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

heard china is having trouble getting russia to supply engines for JF-17 which would delay induction of the fighter but this news is saying its happening in '06?

Apparently Russia Rejected Supplying RD-93 engines for JF-17 Saying that "We will not give engines if pakistan is shown as end-user"

But Chinese might surely have someother solution.But till now no news about any other engine fitted to JF-17.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Worst Comes they have Other options, either Go for the French Engines or Trysome of the US engines all those Options are realistic, would end up making the Jet abit Pricey.

 

[mysterious]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Or, simply go for a variant of the J-10 engine with a lesser thrust and some minor changes. I think that sounds more realistic.

 

[highsea]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

A fighter not is not like a truck that has an engine compartment, and any old engine will do. You can't just "switch engines". A light fighter is designed entirely around the engine/airframe combination. The airframe is basically a just a tube that houses the engine, but it has to be perfect. The RD-33/93/133 family is the only viable engine series for the AC.

Any engine change would mean a complete re-engineering of the airframe. Basically starting from scratch. Everything from weights and balances, structural hard points, maintenance panels, power systems, hydraulics, electrical system, fuel lines and airflow requirements, etc. would change. China really doesn't have the capability to re-design the AC, and it's too late in the game to even consider it. It would mean going all the way back to the mock-up and wind tunnel stage.

China has engines that are either smaller or larger than the JF-17 needs. The only option is to reverse engineer the RD93, come to terms with Russia, or ignore the end-user certificate (something which China has done before).

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

A fighter not is not like a truck that has an engine compartment, and any old engine will do. You can't just "switch engines". A light fighter is designed entirely around the engine/airframe combination. The airframe is basically a just a tube that houses the engine, but it has to be perfect. The RD-33/93/133 family is the only viable engine series for the AC.

Any engine change would mean a complete re-engineering of the airframe. Basically starting from scratch. Everything from weights and balances, structural hard points, maintenance panels, power systems, hydraulics, electrical system, fuel lines and airflow requirements, etc. would change. China really doesn't have the capability to re-design the AC, and it's too late in the game to even consider it. It would mean going all the way back to the mock-up and wind tunnel stage.

China has engines that are either smaller or larger than the JF-17 needs. The only option is to reverse engineer the RD93, come to terms with Russia, or ignore the end-user certificate (something which China has done before).

That would completely be based on the assumption that the Pakistanis were absolutely oblivious to the fact that the Indian would prevent deliveries of the engines, and they made no other provisions. they Must have a back up, they must of made provisions before Latching onto the program and investing Time and money on the Project. the Americans were involoved in the project Many years back. the amount of US design that still remains in the AC, well my guess is as good as yours. but i suspect that a certain amount of that R&D is still in the AC. AC manufacturer such as Saab have contingency Plans in Place, just to make sure that they Can provide customers with finished products. the Airframe of the JF-17 appears to be large enough to House most major brand engines (while considering there is a copy of RD-93 in China). the Minor Adjustments like air and fuel Inlets and other sort of electrical Mods have to be Carried out that may or may not have been done already.

 

[highsea]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

adsH, I am not making any assumptions on the politics of the situation between Pakistan and India. As far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevent to the feasability of an alternative (Chinese) engine for the JF-17.

I strongly doubt that any of the R&D from Grumman is part of the FC-1 today, nor do I see how it relates to the topic. It's pretty widely acknowledged that the FC-1 is derived from the "Product 33" from Mig, and the Super-7 was abandoned. The "Product 33" design work was largely finished when Mig offered the design to China, which is why the project was able to stay on track timewise.

I do not know if Saab has done the work to put a different engine in the Gripen or not. I suspect not. The US has done this with the F-16's from Block 30/32 onward. All of these aircraft have the "common engine bay" that will accomodate the GE F110 or the PW F100. I can assure you that a major redesign was involved, and the F110 engine went through a complete redesign also, to make it compatible to the F-16.

The engines have to be dimensionally the same, and all the frame locations, etc. have to match up in each section. The AC have to be ballasted differently to account for the weight differences. This also has to be accounted for in the airframe design. It is not a trivial thing, and it took the combined resources of PW, GE, and LM a couple years to accomplish.

The common engine bay program required strengthening of the airframe in many areas to handle the increase in thrust of the F110. Also, the inlet had to be enlarged for those planes, because the engine needed more air. The planes that got F100's had to keep the smaller inlet, because the engine couldn't handle the additional air. A modular inlet design had to be developed, because a standardized inlet couldn't be integrated into the production line.

Changing the inlet design is trivial from a manufacturing prespective, but not from a design perspective. It has to be modeled throughout the performance envelope, AOA's etc. Lots of computer work and wind tunnel testing involved.

For these and many other reasons, I stand by my previous statement. A fighter jet is not a transport that you can hang the engines from pylons. Any change in the engine would require a major redesign of the AC.

I seem to recall reading that China has already procured either 50 or 250 RD-93 engines, I don't remember the number. China does have the ability to reverse engineer the engine, as demonstrated by the Al-31F/WS-10. Also, as the largest arms customer to Russia, thay have a significant amount of financial leverage. I'm sure that the RD-93 will still go in the JF-17, the only real question is whether it will be a Russian-made one or a Chinese copy.

 

[SABRE]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Engine is not going to be changed....one of the JF-17/FC-1 flies on Chinese Engine or so I have herd...if that AC is flying properly than there is no problem.

But on the other hand Musharaf stated in France last year (abt couple of months or 3, back) that he did discuss about Pakistan Airforces desire to aquire new jets (he did not say that wheather we were looking for French jets) any ways he also told the press that he also talked to the French President about the Jet we r making (JF-17).

If RD-93 is not available, Pakistan "will" have to ask dessault to make a new varient of Engine suitable to JF-17. It should be specificaly for JF-17. There is no way both China & Pakistan will abondon this project.

 

[Salman78]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

swedes have ways of their own.
they wont have any objection giving PAF their datalink tech.
Jf-17 will hold its own then.

 

[corzair]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

I'm confused about the engine situation also

I have read that the chinese says they have and signed agreement from the Russians fot the engines in question

And in other places the russians are reassuring the indian gov they will not agree to Pakistan as the end user - so exactly what is going on ? and surely the Ruskies know Pakistan is getting/making JF-17s

And so how does Pakistan Aero Complex fit in? Are they not going to build JF-17 incountry sort of co-make the Thunder? are they going to just build the airframe and get engines from china or what?

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Pak kama was always supposed to be a "knock down " facility its sole purpose was to Integrate the High-tech Equipment onbord the chinese Airframes(i think, even-though they would have teh Capability to manufacture the Airframes). the tech which is going to be integrated onto the jet comes from variety of sources, If russians violate there agreement then the Chinese would just have to reverse engineer the RD93, which does not mean that they haven't done so already were forgetting the fact that the Chinese do tend to run production lines after the Initial Orders.

 

[hovercraft]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

please tell me range of the radar of jf-17

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

please tell me range of the radar of jf-17

One Pakistan Source says it has search range of 100km.
Its Tracking range could be anywhere between 50-70km.
It would be comparable to Kopyo Radar.

If russians violate there agreement then the Chinese would just have to reverse engineer the RD93, which does not mean that they haven't done so already were forgetting the fact that the Chinese do tend to run production lines after the Initial Orders.

But Reverse engineering would take some time.
Some Indian Sources say FC-1 will be out by 2006.

I am surprised that PAF officials did not make any comment on news of Russia Rejecting the Engines.

 

[adsH]

Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

What about the Ukrainians, there is increased Pak-Ukrainian Activity and Increased Anti Russian Feeling in Ukrain, its Possible they (PAF) have Ukrainians as Backup.

The Chinese if they ever were threatened like this, then people can be rest assured they would of Reverse engineered the Damn Engine Ages ago. Its in tehre nature to Study Tech that they get. Thats why Europe Does not sell Weapon systems to them.