JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

adsH

New Member
i think the Italians are being used as designers, they design a piece of hardware and they transfer the designs to the company that has contracted them, its simply like a pay as you go (i suppose), Italians are damm good at outsourced designing.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Well l think the pakistanis can live with that.
Italians design and develop. Pakistan can mass produce at home.
ie. a good route to indiginisation.
With just a tiny bit of reverse engineering and copying. ;)
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Muslim282--good buddy,
Are you familiar with what reverse engineering is or are you just speaking our because you have heard this word alot!!!

Now if reverse engineering was so easy, china would have manufactured whatever and what not, to the same ability and capability as the original designer wanted it to be or pretty close to it. But alas, such is not the case-----the project reverse engineering is easier said, than done.

The jet turbine engines don't produce the same amount of power and neither the life is as long, the rocket motors don't run as they are supposed to, the main frame of a rocket crumbles on a launch pad because the weight factor of the satellite was not taken into consideration, a diesel engine produces 400 horse power instead of the 1200 needed for that machine---nothing is the same, the results are mind boggling most of the time. The things simply don't work as they are supposed to.
 

adsH

New Member
technically a reverse engineer has to be sharper then a person working from scratch, Victora ever heard of material engineers, Mechanical engineers, Electricall engineers, Radar Engineers, Avionic engineers, Computer Scientist (AI), Software engineer, Network engineer, project manager (probably an engineer)

A team leader hs to be an experienced engineer in the area of interest with project handling & management ability, here in the UK we have specialist courses based on reverse engineering!!
 

srirangan

Banned Member
Reverse engineering is generally intensive on effort, while innovation require just another breed of engineers. Both require brain, no one can claim one is smarter than the other. They are just different breeds of animals.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Victora1
you,re right. Reverse engineering isn,t easy. It requires machines to build machines to build machines. The very machines pakistan doesn,t have.
setting up manufacturing plants for weapons especially digitally and computer orientated equipment is hard enough for countries such as the uk and france let alone pakistan.
BUT however.... when the technical expertise on how to build them is sold to you then it,s a different story.
When people copy others, its not a case of building like for like, but instead using the host as a means of bettering their own or to overcome problems associated with their equipment and design.
For example....... it is a known fact that the pakistanis gave an F16 or two to its best mate china. If reverse engineering was simple, china would now poccess the most F16s in the world.
China used the F16 mainly to study its FBW, electronics, composite materials and other bits and bats so that their engineers may gain experience on an already proven plane.
BUT..... and thats another BUT victora you failed to understand modern technology. Surface measurement equipment can now give you accurate readings to 100000th of a millimeter and most equipment is now designed by such computers and related software which is not hard to get your hands on (just ask the indians) calculations, logorythm, calculus and integration is made very easy. Pakistan is currently designing new missiles with such equipment, studying weight and flight ratios even without firing a missile. What you refer to is partially true today. But will have definately been true 10-20 years ago. Time to put away your ruler, hammer and chiesel and well come to the technology revolution my friend.
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Adsh and others,
Guys, you are totally missing the point. The reverse engineer guy does not need to be sharper than the the guy who engineered it. Most of my pakistani and indian brethren have a misconception about being sharp-----this is a flawed thinking.

When you reverse engineer an item, you need to look at it, percieve it and concieve it through the eyes of the creator/designer. What he wanted out of it, what was he thinking when he designed that item, what forces were acting in his environment to make him do what he did---Your thought process changes, your thinking habbits differ---it is just like a man becoming pregnant and carrying a fetus for nine months and at time of delivery finding out that this product does not look to be of his species----time to start all over again---dang it. This is reverse engineering in a nutshell.

Muslim, as to your example of F 16-----neither the electronics( barely exceeds ) nor the output of the engine is the same as that of the 25 + year old fighter.

Building a missille and a jet engine are two totally different things. Understandably, technology of one is far inferior to that of the other. If it was so easy, the russians would have built a fighter jet engine with a service life o/h of 2k plus hours by now in large numbers.

Now, am I condemning reverse engineering--absolutely not. We got to do what we got to do but in the process we must not forget that we cannot live on reverse engineering for everything.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

The China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) is trying to persuade the Chinese Air Force to use the FC-1 so as to increase the production run and reduce the unit cost. But the Chinese military has resisted, being of the view that equiping the Air Force with two types of fighter planes with similar performance within the same time period would both consume limited financial resources and complicate logistical support for dissimilar aircraft.

The FC-1 was to make it's first flight in 1996, but the project was delayed when Pakistan sought to upgrade the performance characteristics of the FC-1 to respond to India's acquisition of Su-30MKIs. After several years of stagnation, the Pakistani Prime Minister's February 1998 trip to China resulted in an agreement to continue development of the fighter. Currently Pakistan is interested in acquiring at least 150 fighters, with the Chinese contemplating acquiring over 200.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Muslim,
My friend, I missed the last part of your comment---you can measure 10000th part or 1000000 part, if this technology is not invented by you----if you are not a part and parcel of the creating process of this technology, then you are in the boonies---measuring something to that extent doesnot give one the frame of mind, the mindset to become the creator.

For that reason reverse engineering has its limitations. One is always 10-15 years behind the leader. A good example is the JF-17.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

VICTORA1 said:
Muslim,
My friend, I missed the last part of your comment---you can measure 10000th part or 1000000 part, if this technology is not invented by you----if you are not a part and parcel of the creating process of this technology, then you are in the boonies---measuring something to that extent doesnot give one the frame of mind, the mindset to become the creator.

So victora in order to become a creator we have have to start from scratch again. Let me see.. how about re-inventing the wheel. Otherwise we will be in the "boonies". Great intelect my friend.

measuring something to that extent doesnot give one the frame of mind, the mindset to become the creator.

What sort verbal garbage is this. This makes no sense what so ever.
Please if their is anybody out their who can interpret this in any language, it would be a great help.

No offence intended, but please lets talk so that we can at least understand each other. BOONIES ?
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Muslim,
My good man---this is no verbal garbage. But in order for me to elucidiate upon it, I guess that I need to go to member introduction and read your stats and see to whom I am speaking to, Is it a young pakistani 'TURK' or a pro.
See you soon.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

A pakistani... born and brought up in the uk.
Currently working For BAE systems as a materials scientist.
education:- BSc chemistry, MSc Polymereric Science
Phd Surface Coatings.
Oh yeah... and l love military aviation

does that qualify me my friend.
And how about you
 

VICTORA1

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Muslim,
My stats are not as tantalizing as your's if you are being truthfull.

This discussion is going away from the Jf 17. Maybe the MOD might kick me out---but till then.

So, Muslim, in order to be a creator, you indeed have to start from a scratch and let us not get sarcastic as to going back to inventing the wheel---this statement from you who claims to be Msc polymeric sciences and Phd in Blah Blah Blah----I believe that you are full of it. No engineer would make a statement like that. We know how important it is to stick to the basics all the time.

You think that when you start reverse engineering something, others would let you buy their computers and programs and cnc machines and materials and things likewise so you are free to do whatever you want. You may fly and design the missile on a computer generated program, but live testing may not give the same results. But then designing and flying a missile is not the same as desgining a jet engine for a JF 17. It is not the same as designing a cylinder head for an automobile engine.

Pakistan does not manufacture even a cylinder head of their own design for a gas combustion engine of an automobile. Pakistan does not produce a cam-shaft of their own design for any automobile engine. Pakistan does not manufacture a cylinder block for a gasoline automobile engine of their own design. Pakistan does not manufacture an outdated carburator for an internal combustion engine for automobiles of its own design or reverse engineered version.

Reverse engineering my foot----there is no research going on in pakistan, there are hardly any phd's, there are hardly and phd's who have written any books and printed some genuine research papers, there are hardly and pakistani scientists who have patented any new inventions----you go to a science fair and you come across indian scientists who have 10, 20, 30 inventions patented under their names, you talk to your pakistani colleagues and maybe hardly one or two may have and invention or two in their names.

My good man, why don't you embarass me some more and go to pakistan and reverse engineer a jet engine for the nation-----not something new----how about that Rolls Royce engine that the british gave to russia after the second world war as a gift. I bet you that pakistan cannot reverse engineer a 40's technology jet engine. You know why------they don't have the resource to make something even that ancient.

You are talking about inventing the wheel youngman----if ever get a chance---go to interior Sindh---you may see ox driven carts with a wooden wheel----the design of that wheel was brought over by Alexander the greats armies 2000 years ago !!! That wheel is still going around in pakistan---the original version. We have not gotten to the stage of re-invention yet.

Let us talk substance over here----insults won't get pakistan ahead in any manner and neither would it do any good to the JF 17 program.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Frankly victora l find you insulting, to the entire concept of development.
l wouldn,t need to prove my ability to someone of your standard.
Pakistan has no Phd's... oh please !
Pakistan doesn,t have the ability to develop.......etc ! ( well my friend, ever heard of the hatf missiles, the gahuri, bakhtr shikan tank missiles, anza SAM's, Al-kahlid battle tanks, zarar vehicles, the numerous small arms pakistan develops..... and do you know what, their all made and produced in pakistan, gees l thought we were still traveling on donkeys in pakistan )
Oh yeah, by god we have nukes as well ! Amazing isn,t it victora. l,m sure we didn,t by them off the shelf.
lf you understood you would not have made such rude and biased comments.
Oh yeah... Do you know what centrifuge technology is. lf you don,t then read it up. lts currently at an advanced stage in pakistan, the numerous scientists in pakistan ( Phd,s ) are sought after for assisstance by countries such as poland, north korea, indonesia, malaysia, iran and saudi. Not bad for a donkey riding nation.
Regarding lndia:- well yes they are ahead of us at this moment in time simply due to their large economy and vast resources.
l don,t recall any indian discovering the computer or software, but look where they are now..... surely they didn,t start from scratch by first building a computer then developing software and so on.
lts simple... import and purchase what you don,t have or can,t develop then research and develop further to what your resources allow. You don,t pick up a text book and become a doctor from scratch, tutoring and being taught is the key, l don,t see no harm in the chinese or others teaching us.
WE didn,t research and develop the saab plane, but instead bought the rights off sweden and now this has transpired into the super mushak, which is now fully indiginous. Gees not bad for a donkey riding nation.
The very same principle will follow with the JF-17, pakistan in years to come will have the full resources to develop and manufacture the entire plane on its own, as it seems china will only have limited use for the plane.
Now regarding pakistan... well it is a poor nation, but at least their trying.
lndia has alot more poverty than pakistan. Even in the USA, 20% of the people live under the poverty line. This is mean,t to be the largest economy in the world.
Pakistan now exports around $100million of arms every year (pakistan defence.com, janes weapons database) and will almost double by the end of 2005. Not to say how much they save by not importing such weapons.
Not bad for a donkey riding nation.
Please refer to the various pakistan arms development factories and plants before making such rude and biased comments.
 

muslim282

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Oh yeah one other fact victora.
Was it not the USA who took all the german nazi scientists after WWll and spared them from trials on condition that they work for the USA.
The entire basis of the american rockets,ICBM,s, modern fighter planes, and especially the space program was done by german scientists. Not very innovative on the american part.
Victora its a fact of life wether militarily or commercialy, few innovate, everybody else copies.
Regarding your stupid comment about me reverse engineering an engine or a fighter plane for pakistan, well l,m a materials scientist and not an engineer. Maybe you should perceive an idea, research and invent and then look at the product and try to think what the inventer was thinking......and all the other rubbish you talked and then maybe we could out do the F22 Rapter.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

Was it not the USA who took all the german nazi scientists after WWll and spared them from trials on condition that they work for the USA.
Only partially correct. Eg Eisenhower in his memoirs bemoans the fact that the Russians got the creme of the crop in rocket engineers. The US actually irrittated some german scientists enough to the point where they thought they were useless and let them go to the USSR.

Britain and France managed to get some - but only a miniscule drop compared to the USA and USSR.

The primary difference between the US and Russian approach was that the US encouraged them to work via various means - but not under duress, the Russians on the other hand made it multiple choice - work for us or learn how to deal with ice on your own terms. The Brits and French used the carrot approach as well.
 

highsea

New Member
Re: FC-1 / Super 7 / JF-17

muslim282 said:
The entire basis of the american rockets,ICBM,s, modern fighter planes, and especially the space program was done by german scientists. Not very innovative on the american part.
You're painting with a pretty broad brush here, Muslim. Rockets, maybe, the rest? No way.

The truth is, reverse engineering something is generally easier than starting from scratch. Any engineer can tell you this. That's not to say that it is always easy, just that having a starting spot is a big advantage. China couldn't reverse engineer and build an F-16, because they didn't have the technology to build the F-16 in the first place. What good does it do to measure a turbine fan if you can't program the CNC to mill the blades? There are a lot of datum points on an F-16 wing spar, for example, that don't even exist on the part. So if you don't know where these datum points are on the airframe, how do you tolerance the part? Tiny changes can have a big effect sometimes. If you miss a radius in a pocket, the whole part may fail under stress.

The Tomahawk is a much simpler machine, and it wasn't too difficult for China to copy. Mainly because there were no large technological hurdles for China to overcome.

I have done both, reverse engineering and product development from scratch. It's fairly easy to measure a part, do a metalurgical analysis, and make a drawing and manufacturing spec., but only if you have a solid understanding of the part's role in the whole assembly. The engineer still has to assign dimensional and process tolerances, which you cannot get from a single sample.

When you are starting from scratch, you have to make a lot of educated guesses on materials, heat treatment, tradeoff between strength and weight, etc., then test it to failure to know if you were correct. Sometimes this can be a very time consuming and expensive process. It's much easier if someone else has already done this for you.

Both methods have their advantages and drawbacks, but the bottom line is that copying an already existing design is generally easier than developing it from scratch.
 
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