Indonesian Aero News
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The Bunker Group
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Asside the structures, personally I also wondering how extensive the original wiring still exists. Considering the quote that I take from Collins Aerospace press release, seems the upgrade avionics content practically complete change from analog to digital system.
This I suspect create complete rewiring and adjustments on onboard electrical system. The J basically already ommited the need for flight engineer and navigator, that still exist in H. This make the J cockpit job distribution arrangement just like modern airliners. I wonder if digitized the H cockpit also means rearranging the cockpit job distribution, which make flight engineer and navigator redundant.
They could fit the RR upgrade kit for the engines and 6 or 8 bladed props. Something that USAF has done.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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L'Indonésie se donne les moyens d'acquérir une nouvelle tranche de Rafale (18 avions de combat)
Une nouvelle tranche de 18 Rafale devrait être prochainement mise en vigueur. L'Indonésie avait signé en février 2022 un contrat pour l'acquisition de 42 Rafale. Elle pourrait également acquérir les 12 Mirage 2000-5 du Qatar.
www.latribune.fr
LA Tribune quote source from Dasault saying that Indonesia already put effective 2nd tranche of Rafale order. This second tranche of 18, while first tranche is for 6. This make the 42 option will be divided on 6+18+18 of overall 3 trenches.
This already circulated for several days on Indonesian enthusiasts forums and online media. However this is first confirmation from French side (that presumably coming from French Industry/Dasault sources). Local sources put the Indonesian MoF already agree for total USD 4.0 bio for 1st and 2nd Tranches (USD 1.3 bio + USD 2.7 bio). The 3rd tranches reported will be another USD 4.0 Bio as the 3rd tranches includes the maintenance support packages.
As for 12 ex Qatar Mirage 2K as interim fighters, this now being 'questioned' by local 'rumours' and some indications shown LM now moving to get that 'interim' fighters budget with their own F-16 second hand and refurbishment packages.
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On another news, this is also something that is already prevalent in local military forums but now confirmed by Janes. Indonesia has approved of US $800 Million loan placement for 2 airframes of AEW&C Aircraft.
The three main candidates that are most talked about in social media and forums are Saab platform with Erieye-ER, E-7 Wedgetail, and C295 AEW. E-7 is already too expensive given the budget allocation, so the most likely candidate is SAAB platform. But I wonder why other candidate like E-2 is not being cosidered?
The three main candidates that are most talked about in social media and forums are Saab platform with Erieye-ER, E-7 Wedgetail, and C295 AEW. E-7 is already too expensive given the budget allocation, so the most likely candidate is SAAB platform. But I wonder why other candidate like E-2 is not being cosidered?
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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E-7 is 'dream' by TNI-AU, but with set budget of USD 800 mio for initial batch of 2, E-7 yes will be outside the range. Unless somehow Boeing manage to give discount packages or MinDef being convinces to change for only one in this first batch.
However I do agree more and more Erieye will be the preference. One thing that Erieye got attention is the flexibility of the systems to be mounted on customers platform of choices. Even though SAAB initial offer with their own SAAB 2000 regional turboprop platform for Indonesian packages.
PICTURE: Saab unveils C-295 Erieye concept
Saab has unveiled a scale model of EADS Casa's C-295 tactical transport equipped with its Erieye airborne early warning and control radar ...
www.flightglobal.com
Still SAAB seems try to shown their products can be flexible to be used on customer platform of choices. Their concept of Erieye in C295, I do believe come due to their realisation that C295 is popular platform. Indonesia with strong Airbus long term lobby, will going to be interested on this concept (I suspect even CN 235 can be candidates platform).
So far SAAB try to offer to Indonesia either their own SAAB 2000 platform or Embrear 145 small regional/business jet) as the platform of choices. However seems SAAB willing to try adjust on more platforms to increase their attractiveness. So let's see what platform SAAB offer to Indonesia going to end up. Seems now they are the leading candidate.
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Platform seems matter. E2D being evaluate before, but from 'rumours' Mindef like the system but not the platform. Northrop Grumman will not going to provide other platform options, for few orders from Indonesia sake. The flexibilities on platform choices seems that been SAAB marketing arsenal.
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The radar on the C-295 is from Elbit (Israel) system, so I am not sure how that would factor into consideration.
defense-update.com
As no one has ordered it before, price wise is still a question mark.
As for SAAB, we have some benchmarks.
The UAE's GlobalEye platforms were USD 1 billion for a pair
UAE signs up for two more Saab GlobalEye airborne early warning & control aircraft
While Swedes were around USD 700 million for a pair.
www.saab.com
So a USD 800 million budget seems to fit this well.
The E-2D though would be more affordable, but the range would be limited.
www.navalnews.com
Airbus Military and Elta Systems Introduce C295 AEW&C - Defense Update:
Today, Airbus Military and IAI/Elta Systems introduced their joint development of an Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) system based on the Airbus Military/Casa C295 medium transport.
defense-update.com
As no one has ordered it before, price wise is still a question mark.
As for SAAB, we have some benchmarks.
The UAE's GlobalEye platforms were USD 1 billion for a pair
UAE signs up for two more Saab GlobalEye airborne early warning & control aircraft
While Swedes were around USD 700 million for a pair.
Saab Receives Order for Two GlobalEye for Sweden
Saab has today signed a contract with and received an order from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) for the GlobalEye Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft. The order includes two GlobalEye aircraft with deliveries planned during 2027. The order value is...
www.saab.com
So a USD 800 million budget seems to fit this well.
The E-2D though would be more affordable, but the range would be limited.
Northrop Grumman Wins Contract for French Navy E-2D Aircraft - Naval News
Northrop Grumman won a $354 million U.S. Navy contract to start production on three E-2D Advanced Hawkeye airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft for the French Navy (Marine Nationale).
www.navalnews.com
Ananda
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The twitter aka salesman guy put this tweet, seems also align with some rumours that I got from 'finance' guys. Rumours that the asking price of those 36 F-15EX/ID is simply too large too justifies.
There's already some political factions questioning the prices of 42 Rafale packages that's being quote as USD 8.1bio. Getting 36 F-15ID on quote package costs between USD 10bio - USD 13bio, will raise political risks near election time.
Most political factions seems agree on increase TNI capabilities. However some already question if MinDef already calculate better deals for TNI as whole and not just TNI-AU. If F-15ID packages got green light, then TNI-AU/AF got disproportionate budget allocation. Thus more voices call on more even distribution especially with Navy.
Also there are those still "angry" with Su-35 deal postponement which they see it (and with some good base) on US interference with Indonesian arms procurement program. Thus they are see if Indonesia can't bought from Russia, better make sure the money goes to other suppliers outside US. This's why Frenchie and Turkiye got more deals at the latest Indodefence.
However those more 'pro' US also point out that Indonesia trade balance with US is quite disproportionate favoring Indonesia. Thus there's need to rebalance the trade deficit (something that I already point out few years back in this thread). Question is if not F-15EX then what else.
This is where the talk of Goverment to support Garuda Indonesia deals on 737/787/777 that being 'hold' due to recent Garuda financial problem and Covid situation. Getting those for Garuda Indonesia is considered less politically sensitive and can be more acceptable by all political factional. Including those that're considered more friendly to Russia or bit anti US.
Doesn't mean F-15EX deal will be postponement definitely, but seems there's talk on going back to original TNI-AU favour base on their proposal in 2020. That's what I personally hope for. F-16 whether 2nd hand with upgrade packages or direct new ones are much more efficient for TNI-AU operational budget and support infrastructure realities.
I'm sorry, I'm ignorant for matters of international trade, but why do we must balance our trade with the US? Is there a benefit?
Ananda
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Well no wories, in fact this is kind of question that we in the financial market often got from our customers. Especially those business whom begin to enter International trade market. Simple answer that we give usually is: "do we (as one economy) still see that particular market important to us?"
The link I put is using 2020 data, however already shown how important is US market for Indonesian export. US market is #2 destinations of Indonesian export. Moreover eventough China is #1 export destinations, but we have big deficit with China (we import more) and vice versa huge surplus with US.
With China, our trade diplomacy also asking more access for their market, while with US our trade diplomacy ussualy try to lobby not just maintaining or even enlarging our market, but also lobby so no US policy that can negatively effect Indonesian export market there.
Generalized System of Preferences (GSP)
The U.S. Generalized System of Preferences (GSP) is a program designed to promote economic growth in the developing world by providing preferential duty-free entry for up to 5,000 products when imported from one of 122 designated beneficiary countries and territories. The GSP program also...
This is one of US trade policies that ussualy benefit developing nations. This is also one of US potent geopolitical arsenal, you can say one of their 'soft power' arsenal. It is not first time however for some factions in the hill call Indonesia to be exclude from GSP. One of the reasons is Indonesia huge surplus with US.
Now not all Indonesian export to US using GSP scheme. In fact it is only around 10%-13% of overall export using GSP.
However those export that using GSP usually is labour intensives products, like foot ware and textiles. Those products as labour internsives segments, make it politically sensitives by any administration, if public got perception they don't shown enough support. Those segments also got pressure in our own home market fron imports from China, or Vietnam. Thus making sure they have enough access to export market (especially in US or other OECD nations) is important.
So there are Geopolitics and Economics mechanistic that work in here. Trade balance will not going to be achieve with all trading partners. Some will have deficits, some will have surplus. However every nations try to gain 'balance' as much as possible. If we see one market is 'important' to us, then it is more imperative the government try to keep trade access to that market secure.
That's what I think. Much cheaper both to buy & operate, & fit into existing logistics. F-16V would be a great advance on what Indonesia has & is available new or as an upgrade.
SAAB's ability to fit the Erieye on multiple platforms is impressive. It was tested on a Fairchild Metro. probably because the Swedish air force had a few & could spare one. It's since been fitted to the SAAB 340, SAAB 2000 (available pretty cheap because SAAB has some used ones stored), Embraer EMB-145/R-99 & Bombardier Global 6000, apparently with no problems.E-7 is 'dream' by TNI-AU, but with set budget of USD 800 mio for initial batch of 2, E-7 yes will be outside the range. Unless somehow Boeing manage to give discount packages or MinDef being convinces to change for only one in this first batch.
However I do agree more and more Erieye will be the preference. One thing that Erieye got attention is the flexibility of the systems to be mounted on customers platform of choices. Even though SAAB initial offer with their own SAAB 2000 regional turboprop platform for Indonesian packages.
PICTURE: Saab unveils C-295 Erieye concept
Saab has unveiled a scale model of EADS Casa's C-295 tactical transport equipped with its Erieye airborne early warning and control radar ...
View attachment 50107
Still SAAB seems try to shown their products can be flexible to be used on customer platform of choices. Their concept of Erieye in C295, I do believe come due to their realisation that C295 is popular platform. Indonesia with strong Airbus long term lobby, will going to be interested on this concept (I suspect even CN 235 can be candidates platform).
So far SAAB try to offer to Indonesia either their own SAAB 2000 platform or Embrear 145 small regional/business jet) as the platform of choices. However seems SAAB willing to try adjust on more platforms to increase their attractiveness. So let's see what platform SAAB offer to Indonesia going to end up. Seems now they are the leading candidate.
Add:
Platform seems matter. E2D being evaluate before, but from 'rumours' Mindef like the system but not the platform. Northrop Grumman will not going to provide other platform options, for few orders from Indonesia sake. The flexibilities on platform choices seems that been SAAB marketing arsenal.
Globaleye is more expensive not only because it's on a bigger & more expensive aircraft, but because it has additional sensors (e.g. a Leonardo SeaSpray 7500E maritime surveillance radar & an electro-optical/infrared sensor) & extra systems to handle the data. I think there are options to add or omit capabilities, which will be reflected in the price. I think the UAE went for the full capability, probably with a lot of spares & a comprehensive support package.
The SAAB 340 only had the basic minimum system with an Erieye radar & a couple of operator consoles. It was largely a flying radar relaying data to ground stations, I think. The EMB-145 & SAAB 2000 are significantly bigger & can carry more equipment & operators, doing more processing on the aircraft, & the Global 6000 has double their max T/O weight.
If you want an AEW aircraft without the bells & whistles of Globaleye, & have a limited budget, of course SAAB would prefer to sell you some of its stored SAAB 2000s, & that's probably the cheapest option until they run out of airframes.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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There's talk/rumours that F-15EX is basically 'pride/ego' demand to US administration. Since they don't want to give F-35 yet, then they should give second best thing which is F-15EX. This is to shown US willing to give best assets to Indonesia to compensate Indonesia dropping Su-35.
TNI-AU themselves seems taken by surprise on Rafale and F-15EX. I suspect by the studies (at least what they put in to public before 2020), F-16V is what they see the best solution for them (base on their operational budget). Personally I do suspect TNI-AU knows they can't support operation on both Rafale and F-15EX, as they know realistically their potential operational sustainment capabilities.
I already put in this thread that it is either Rafale or F-15EX, and can't be both. This is base on the talk with 'finance' peoples on potential budget that can be afforded. So either F-15 and F-16 or Rafale and F-16. Rafale and F-15 is just stretch the budget too far and can costs development on other branches, or even TNI-AU own other projects.
Some factions still can push for F-15 EX even with only 12 instead 36. This after all already political statement rather than what best for TNI-AU. Hope some sanity check still prevailing. Fingers crossed.
Platform wise personally I prefer EMB-145 more on operational support available in the market. Still I do heard rumours that Indonesian MinDef like E-2D (base on their studies with Singapore on older gen E-2) and Japan (on current E-2D). However they want longer range platform, which if they insist on that, Northrop Grumman will charge much more premium in price for costs in customisation of the platform choices.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
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Mengenal UAV-D, Drone Latih/Pengawasan yang akan digunakan oleh Sekbang PTTA TNI AU
AIRSPACE REVIEW (airspace-review.com) - Seperti yang telah diberitakan oleh Airspace Review sebelumnya, TNI Angkatan Udara (TNI AU) sedang
www.airspace-review.com
Local Aerospace enthusiasts blog put Indonesian Air Force/TNI-AU first UAV flying school. This basically to increase proficiency of UAV pilot pools. This school using MALE UAV call UAV-D which is basically license version of LH-D UAV from LH-Aviation from French.
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This is the link on sales brochures of LH-D UAV license in India. Seems similar arrangements now being done by LH Aviation with their partner in Indonesia (IPCD).
IPCD
www.ipcd.id
Seems this LH-D UAV being chose as trainers for UAV pilots as providing enough specs for UAV Pilots training before they are moving on operating MALE UCAV class. This is seems preparation for operating Turkiye MALE UAV.
This is also indication that TNI-AU plan for more UAV squadron in future.
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Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
First images of the new/second hand 737-800 for the Indonesian police appear on the internet. Its disguised as a 737-MAX with its splitted scimitar winglets. The Indonesian police is also in the possession of the C295 and several smaller aircrafts, it is unclear if the Fokker 50 is still active.
It seems that the N219 has to redo the certification process, that's why it is still not in production.
It seems that the N219 has to redo the certification process, that's why it is still not in production.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Good question, would be interesting to hear the reasoning.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
The Indonesian police has used the Fokker 50 and C295 for the transport over long range of high-risk prisoners like terrorists. They also use it for VIP-flights of high officers. For long range/across the country troop transport flights they often charter 737s from Lion Air.
It seems the F-16 fleet upgrade program to a viper-equivalent seems to have gained more traction compare to the F-15 plan according to the twitter guy at least, and it seems like he's not happy about it.
If all 33 is going to be upgraded, the common speculation is that the newer block 32 will be upgraded first since they will have the oldest airframe (since the older block 15 is undergoing eMLU), before moving on to the eMLU falcons. And according to the twitter guy, if this program is to go ahead, it will probably start 2025 at the earliest. Seems like F-16 will have to work for a while it seems.
On another note, Boeing is still trying...
If all 33 is going to be upgraded, the common speculation is that the newer block 32 will be upgraded first since they will have the oldest airframe (since the older block 15 is undergoing eMLU), before moving on to the eMLU falcons. And according to the twitter guy, if this program is to go ahead, it will probably start 2025 at the earliest. Seems like F-16 will have to work for a while it seems.
On another note, Boeing is still trying...
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