Indonesian Aero News

[Sandhi Yudha]

Im not a fan of the procurement of the F-15EX, but even that is in my opinion better than to buy some old chinese trash from the '90s. I just wonder why the people of the anti-Western World group of politicians are not considering to order the 30FFM class or the Incheon/Daegu class of frigates.

 

[Ananda]

I just wonder why the people of the anti-Western World group of politicians

They're more thinking like Soekarnoist Nationalist, this in my opinion sceptics not to whole west, but mostly to US and UK.

Remember on the heights of Soekarno period, even tough historically being told he is anti West, but mostly he is anti US, UK, and Netherlands. At that time Indonesia still procure and work on defense with French and Italian. Japanese assets like 30FFM lobby still going strong from what I heard.

old chinese trash from the '90s.

What China offer is Type 52D, and it is not old and still front line assets in PLAN.

 

[swerve]

Yes from which i understand TNI-AD has the ASTROS II Mk.6.

I think that's the one with guided rockets, also called ASTROS 2020.

 

[ChestnutTree]

What China offer is Type 52D, and it is not old and still front line assets in PLAN.

Why were they going for Luyang-III's when they already have signed contracts for Arrowheads and FREMMs is the bigger question.

At the very least I welcome the introduction of Eagle II's now that there is word that the Jokowi administration might be dropping out of the KFX program. If they do secure funding for Viper upgrades (or my hope, EDA transfers as well), then it's a very formidable fleet indeed, barring whenever they manage to get funding for AWACS and boom equipped tankers.

 

[Arji]

Why were they going for Luyang-III's when they already have signed contracts for Arrowheads and FREMMs is the bigger question.

Political thinking here (as in the thinking of politicians here) is that having predominantly Western equipment might be seen as siding with the west, and since Indonesia strategic stance is to be neutral, there must be some purchase set aside for Chinese/Russian stuff, regardless of any logistical and compatibility concern.

Getting to politics, the current strongest party and leader of the majority coalition now, PDI-P is led by the daughter of Soekarno, the first President. I don't know whether she actually believes this stuff or whether she's just trying to mimic her father rhetoric, but she seems to have apprehension about US and UK, and favors Russian equipment, because of course Soekarno bought a lot of Soviet weapons during the confrontation with the Dutch for West Papua and Soekarno also slightly lean to USSR during his time and even have altercation with US and UK.

It's honestly a good thing that the current defense minister is the head of his own party and is running for president competing with PDI-P's candidate, whilst also being part of the same majority coalition. If he's trying to accumulate achievement for his presidential campaign next year, he'd have incentive to realize his programs, and since his party is the second most popular party at the moment, he actually has some leverage to fend-off that kind of influence (or at least that's what I summized, I'm not a political analyst).

 

[Ananda]

Why were they going for Luyang-III's when they already have signed contracts for Arrowheads and FREMMs is the bigger question.

Just add what Arji already post. So far the Indication is some factions push it. We can got also whose that faction is, and like it or not it is the biggest factions on rulling coalition. The Twitter Guy can say it is already been drop, but with election time coming and means time for political compromises. So who knows.

the introduction of Eagle II's now that there is word that the Jokowi administration might be dropping out of the KFX program.

They are saying publicly that they will fund the amounts due. Then if they do that, how the are going to justifies politically on dropping the program? They can drop the program, if they can justifies all the fund already spend on the program. This IFX program afterall is full of political intrigues from begining of this administration. Some in coalitions don't like the program simply because it is SBY program in their eyes.

Eagle II EX or F-16V (whether new build, Upgrade or
Both) in my opinion will come one way or another due to need to balance with US. I'm hoping for F-16V simply on money trail availability. Even they got some money to sidelines for F-15EX, this means giving up something else. Calculations wise more likely come from either sacrificing other AF program or worse Navy program.

This is then come to question why the need for F-15EX if means sacrificing other program?

 

[DDG38]

"A TNI-AU Boeing 737 maritime patrol aircraft arrives through the heat haze of RAAF Base Darwin in the Northern Territory for Ex Albatross Ausindo 23." Image Source : ADF Image Library

 

[Ananda]

Related to Ex Albatross Ausindo, TNI-AU deputy chief being shown by his RAAF counterpart on P-8A bay. TNI-AU 737-200 Surveillance can be said as one of earliest Boeing move on using 737 platform for electronic surveillance.

It is quite cutting edge for 80's technology with AN/APG 135 Motorolla SLAMMR. However it is severely outdated for present and future need. Boeing already offer both E-7 and P-8 as choices for replacement. Something that TNI-AU wants, but will be difficult to finance if MinDef still want to fulfill that 36 F-15EX order.

Note: Picture from Kris FB pages.

 

[DDG38]

Note: Picture from Kris FB pages.

People on FB are notorious for not providing correct attribution, this is also an RAAF image, caption is :
"Air Commander Australia Air Vice-Marshal Darren Goldie, AM, CSC, shows Assistant to the Chief of Staff for Operations for Operations TNI-AU Air Vice-Marshal Minggit Tribowo the Uni-Pac 3 life rafts loaded onto a No. 11 Squadron P-8A Poseidon following the closing ceremony for Ex Albatross Ausindo 23 at RAAF Base Darwin in the Northern Territory."
Original image source : ADF Image Library

 

[Ananda]

Add:

The tweets being deleted by TNI Information Center (Puspen TNI). Seems the pictures of TNI Chief visit UAE Mirage 2000 still consider quite sensitive. Perhaps because officially the talk is for Qatar Mirage 2000. Luckily I still manage to save some pictures.



It is a bit embarrassing that TNI Info Center Tweet Admin does not know the difference between Rafale and Mirage 2000. One thing for sure those are UAE Mirage 2000-9 that being visited by TNI Chief Admiral Margono.

At this time it is all open speculations on which 'interim' second hand fighters that's going to procured. It can be Qatar Mirage 2000-5 or UAE Mirage 2000-9, or Both. Some rumours that big part of foreign credit line for Rafale procurement, finances by UAE and Qatar financial institutions. Thus part of the deal Indonesia going to take some of their Mirage 2000 as interim fighters.

The deal includes spare parts, armaments and supporting infrastructure. Especially since both QAF and UAEAF wants to clean up all inventories of Mirage 2000 and supporting infrastructure and parts. This being rumours enough to sustained those Mirage for more than a decade even two. Make it attractive preposition for interim fighters packages.

 

[koxinga]

It feels like Habibie buying the GDR fleet because the acquisition cost is cheap.

That fleet did well for TNI, but planes are a different story. Sustain that fleet you can, but at what cost for how long? By the time you buy that fleet, there will be sunk cost fallacy because no one wants to be the one to call out a bad deal so you keep throwing money at it.

 

[swerve]

...
At this time it is all open speculations on which 'interim' second hand fighters that's going to procured. It can be Qatar Mirage 2000-5 or UAE Mirage 2000-9, or Both. Some rumours that big part of foreign credit line for Rafale procurement, finances by UAE and Qatar financial institutions. Thus part of the deal Indonesia going to take some of their Mirage 2000 as interim fighters.

The deal includes spare parts, armaments and supporting infrastructure. Especially since both QAF and UAEF wants to clean up all inventories of Mirage 2000 and supporting infrastructure and parts. This being rumours enough to sustained those Mirage for more than a decade even two. Make it attractive preposition for interim fighters packages.

Perfect for India, which already has Mirage 2000 - but India's military procurement is so screwed that it consistently misses such chances. It treated a previous Qatari offer of M2K-5 as insulting, because of the price. Fairly low hours, very well-maintained aircraft with comprehensive spares & (subject to French approval but that was almost certain) weapons - & the Indians expected a knock-down price, because they were used.

 

[Ananda]

feels like Habibie buying the GDR fleet because the acquisition cost is cheap

Bit different if the deal also includes enough spare parts and armaments to support the fleet for at least a Decade more. However will be the same if those Mirage uses for longer period (say two decades more).

GDR Fleet also supposedly only being bought for interim build up until 2000. (so only a decade+ use plan). However due to Asian Financial Crisis, Soeharto stepping down, those assets being used until now.

Fairly low hours, very well-maintained aircraft with comprehensive spares & (subject to French approval but that was almost certain) weapons

Indonesia also being talked still negotiate final prices. I heard Indonesia wants all parts, weapons packages and supporting inventories to keep that fleet operational at least until mid next decade. This is where time that Indonesia expected the definitive assets like Rafale, KF-21 or F-15EX/F-16V already fully operational.

Qatar and UAE always bought their fleet with full packages support by ample supplies of armaments and parts. This is what attracts Indonesian MinDef (at least in paper) for those Mirage 2000.

 

[r0m8470]

Qatar and UAE always bought their fleet with full packages support by ample supplies of armaments and parts. This is what attracts Indonesian MinDef (at least in paper) for those Mirage 2000.

This.
It'd be quite a welcome change vs buying piece meal like how the AF used to do. Be a good transitional piece to get the AF used to French-made equipment and weapons employment, provided that the AF is willing to spend the ordnance. How many will the AF get? About a dozen or so?

 

[Ananda]

How many will the AF get? About a dozen or so?

If the deal is only for Qatar Mirage 2000-5 entire inventories (including all supporting packages and armaments) then it is for a dozen. However the question (which now seems in more sensitive negotiations, which is why Puspen TNI take down that original tweet), is on UAE Mirage 2000-9.

Officially MinDef and TNI only admitting they are in negotiations with Qatar for Mirage 2000. French approval is a must. However since all related parties (Qatar, Indonesia and potentially UAE) are all Rafale current and future customers, most likely Frenchie will given goes ahead. It is good business for them anyway.

Rumours on whose going to get those 56 UAE Mirage 2000-9 has been running around for this past couple of years, especially after UAE bought 80 Rafale. Before Greece, Maroco even Egypt comes as the potential takers, but lately Indonesia also comes as candidate.

Speculation now coming on Greece and Indonesia. Both New Rafale customers, and both will use those Mirage 2000 as interim fighters until their Rafale orders operational. For Greece it is also augment their existing Mirage 2000. UAE Mirage 2000-9 consider as the most advance version of Mirage 2000, thus potential even Greece going to use that to replace some of their older Mirage 2000.

Still for TNI-AU until it is officially clear Indonesia also interested with UAE Mirage 2K, then I can only say currently the discussion is for a dozen Qatar ones.

 

[Arji]

Interesting word coming from the Air Force Chief of Staff, as reported by local media. He basically said that the decision to purchase Mirage 2000 as interim figter is not set in stone yet, but does not deny that it is one of the candidate. This is basically counter to what the Defence Minister Prabowo said during Air Force anniversary, which implies that the purchase of Mirage is already firm.

KOMPAS - KSAU Akui Pengadaan Jet Tempur Mirage 2000 Belum Diputuskan

Though I personally prefer if the funds allocated to used F-16 instead to keep the logistic becoming even more complex than it already is, as @Ananda said, the Middle Eastern Mirage is not a bad choice considering the ample parts and munition that comes with it.

 

[swerve]

There are two batches of UAE Mirage 2000-9. The first lot (36) were bought in the 1980s as Mirage 2000EAD, DAD trainers, & RAD recce. 30 were later converted to the -9 standard. The second batch of 32 were built new as 2000-9, ordered in 1998 & delivered up to 2004. Dassault described the 2000-9 as belonging "to the same class" as Mirage 2000-5, so I think it's best seen as a UAE-specific variant of Mirage 2000-5.

Here's what Dassault said about the 2000-9 some years ago - Mirage 2000-9

The first batch will have been in service for at least 35 years when they start being replaced by Rafales. The second batch will be newer, & considering what the Pakistanis have done with Mirage III/V should be good for some time. With the Qatari M2K-5, it should be possible to buy about 40 aircraft with a good remaining lifespan, plus almost 30 which could serve for a short time & then be cannibalised.

Personally, I think the Indians are crazy not to have signed up for the lot. The IAF has a gaping hole looming as Jaguars retire years ealier than planned after the re-engining fiasco, & operates Mirage 2000. 70 M2K equipped for strike, 40 of them with plenty of airframe hours left, plus a good stock of spares . . . . perfectly fits the IAF's needs. But Indian military procurement is such a mess that it's not surprising.

 

[Ananda]

The talk of this interim defense assets, whether interim fighters, interim frigates or interim submarine are aiming as stop gap to fill existing hole in defense assets.

For fighters remember TNI-AU basically already have one sq short since 2015 when the last F-5 taken out, and basically no replacement. The Hawk 209 eventough still fill two sq, but realities both sq only have effective strengths of slightly just one full sq. This is why the hawk being rumours going to be pull in one sq. So just to fill existing capabilities, there're immediate need to fill gap of two sq which now being hope to fill it by this interim fighters.

This is not talk of additional capabilities. There's also possibilities the Flankers sq going to be run down soon, as with Russian production now full to fill their own war needs thus potentially hinder of their parts support flow. Thus questions whether TNI-AU can still keep the Flankers fully operational. Thus on top the two sq I mention above, there's potential for another one soon.

Even if those 42 Rafale or 36 F-15EX/F-16V come to fruition, it will still need to get by end of this decade to get them fully operational. By that time potentially those 2 Hawk 209 sq need to get replace plus 1 F-5 sq and potentially 1 Flankers sq. Thus 4 sq even need potentially fill the gap before new assets come.

Whether 3-4 sq need to fill by interim sq coming from all Mirage 2000 (in paper it can be happen if they can get the deal from both Qatar and UAE), it is something that need to be ready ASAP. Those Gulf Mirage is soon will be available. That's basically the attractions. Whether this deals going to be included as part deal with Dasault, that's I believe open to negotiation.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Buying the Mirage 2000 from Qatar and UAE can be seen as a sudden panic move, because for almost a decade nothing is done to keep the airforce on a certain level, but if the airframes still have enough hours left over, than these Mirage 2000-5/-9 can be useful as F-5/Hawk replacement until 2040 or something.


In the image below we can see which parts of the EC725/H225 are made by IPTN. The IPTN-made parts of the C295 are quite similar with the parts for the CN235
It is unclear from which period the Bell 412 image is taken. Is it the NBell 412SP which was made under licence by IPTN, or is it from a later version, like the Bell 412 EP or EPI?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1663491464960315393

 

[Ananda]

Is it the NBell 412SP which was made under licence by IPTN, or is it from a later version, like the Bell 412 EP or EPI?

The DI license build NBell 412 is for SP version.

Airliners.net

www.airliners.net

Meanwhile in Indonesia, IPTN has a licence to build the 412SP, which it calls the NBell412.

The license is given for IPTN and seems DI as IPTN inheritor did not have license for final assembly on latest EP and EPI model. Final assembly either by Bell Canada or Subaru Japan. That's why what they are now doing customisation job for 412EPI being order by TNI. Basically armaments and additional military sensors intergrations done by DI. This is also what they are doing with Airbus Helicopter.

It is also reported the DI still involve within Bell Global chain supporting 412 tail boom. Same thing with H225M. So eventough they are still involve in parts manufacturing, helicopters final assembly not involving them again.