Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[r0m8470]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=398693755634000&id=100064801353844

At least some program still work in the schedule time like.

Do anyone know the mission systems outfit for the MPA and the ASW helos?

I noted the chin FLIR and belly mounted radar, something from Thales perhaps? The original MPA with nose mounted radar has front and rear bulges too (above the cockpit, and on the edge of the tail) for ESM?

The helos - dipping sonar or buoys? Surface search radar? Torpedo will be what? Mk 46, Murene/MU90, Blue Shark, Mk 54? Or is it the dreaded Fitted-for-but-not-with?

I assume neither one are outfitted for ASuW, meaning not even provision for anti ship missile?

 

[Ananda]

CN 235-220 for TNI-AL system basically center around AN/APS-143 C(V)3. Put this Indonesian Blog (sorry in Indonesian) but good summary on this MPA version system.

Beginilah Penampakan Kabin CN-235 220 MPA Terbaru Puspenerbal TNI AL

Penyerahan pesawat intai CN-235 220 MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) produksi PT Dirgantara Indonesia kepada Kementerian Pertahanan untuk Puspenerbal TNI AL pada 9 Januari 2018 mengundang perhatian para pemerhati alutsista. Lantaran pesawat yang diberi kode AX-2345 atau setelah diserahkan menjadi...

www.indomiliter.com

This is the description on the CN-235-220 MPA being delivered on 2018. However the one that delivered yesterday use similar configuration. Seems the difference between MPA delivered yesterday then her previous sisters (as this's the 6th MPA DI delivered to TNI-AL), is more modern avionics of full glass version.

Setelah Lama Dinanti, PT DI Resmi Serahkan Dua Unit AS565 MBe Panther AKS dan Satu Unit CN-235-220 MPA Full Mission

Setelah lama dinanti, dua helikopter anti kapal selam (AKS) AS565 MBe Panther Full Mission pesanan Kementerian Pertahanan untuk kebutuhan Pusat Penerbangan Angkatan Laut (Puspenerbal) hari ini, 15 Juni 2022, resmi diserahkan oleh PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) dalam acara seremoni di Hanggar...

www.indomiliter.com

I put this blog as they summarize DI press announcement and several information on the 11 AS565 that TNI-AL order from Airbus and DI as system integrator. Those helicopters basically has system center around HELRAS DS-100. Some of them already being fitted from beginning, some being retrofit. Those two send yesterday seems already being fitted from beginning. Their torpedo either MK46 or A244/S which're both already in TNI-AL inventory for sometime.

As ASuW, both seems wired for that, but I have no solid information yet whether they are already being fitted with that. Potentially if they are retrofit for ASuW, they will be using AS-15TT ASM.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

CN 235-220 for TNI-AL system basically center around AN/APS-143 C(V)3. Put this Indonesian Blog (sorry in Indonesian) but good summary on this MPA version system.

Beginilah Penampakan Kabin CN-235 220 MPA Terbaru Puspenerbal TNI AL

Penyerahan pesawat intai CN-235 220 MPA (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) produksi PT Dirgantara Indonesia kepada Kementerian Pertahanan untuk Puspenerbal TNI AL pada 9 Januari 2018 mengundang perhatian para pemerhati alutsista. Lantaran pesawat yang diberi kode AX-2345 atau setelah diserahkan menjadi...

www.indomiliter.com

This is the description on the CN-235-220 MPA being delivered on 2018. However the one that delivered yesterday use similar configuration. Seems the difference between MPA delivered yesterday then her previous sisters (as this's the 6th MPA DI delivered to TNI-AL), is more modern avionics of full glass version.

Setelah Lama Dinanti, PT DI Resmi Serahkan Dua Unit AS565 MBe Panther AKS dan Satu Unit CN-235-220 MPA Full Mission

Setelah lama dinanti, dua helikopter anti kapal selam (AKS) AS565 MBe Panther Full Mission pesanan Kementerian Pertahanan untuk kebutuhan Pusat Penerbangan Angkatan Laut (Puspenerbal) hari ini, 15 Juni 2022, resmi diserahkan oleh PT Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) dalam acara seremoni di Hanggar...

www.indomiliter.com

I put this blog as they summarize DI press announcement and several information on the 11 AS565 that TNI-AL order from Airbus and DI as system integrator. Those helicopters basically has system center around HELRAS DS-100. Some of them already being fitted from beginning, some being retrofit. Those two send yesterday seems already being fitted from beginning. Their torpedo either MK46 or A244/S which're both already in TNI-AL inventory for sometime.

As ASuW, both seems wired for that, but I have no solid information yet whether they are already being fitted with that. Potentially if they are retrofit for ASuW, they will be using AS-15TT ASM.

Thank you for sharing.
So, this is the 6th CN235-220MPA delivered to TNI-AL, how many CN235-220MPAs are actually ordered? So years ago i read somewhere that third out of five ordered.

And how about TNI-AU? If i am not wrong they ordered 3 CN235-220MPAs for SkU.5.

Some weeks ago i saw a C295 in MPA configuration landing at CGK, i was confused because until then i thought TNI-AU only had 9 normal C295 transporters in its fleet.

After some searching i found out that TNI-AU only got two CN235-220MPAs and for SkU.2 one C295MPA.
Will the third CN235-220MPA still be delivered or is the last CN235-220MPA on order replaced by the C295?

PTDI Serahkan 1 Pesawat CN295 Special Mission ke TNI AU

CN295 merupakan pesawat hasil kerja sama industri antara PTDI dengan Airbus Defense & Space.

m.kumparan.com

Segera Berdinas, CN295 MPA TNI AU Akan Diserahkan Pertengahan 2019

Sejak Maret 2019 lalu, pesawat CN295 versi patroli maritim (MPA) garapan PT Dirgantara Indonesia (PTDI) atas pesanan TNI Angkatan Udara tengah menjalani rangkaian uji terbang sebelum diserahterimakan.

www.airspace-review.com

And is it correctly that, contrary what the Indonesian media says, the C295 are not built in licence in Bandung, but still all made in Sevilla?

 

[Ananda]

And is it correctly that, contrary what the Indonesian media says, the C295 are not built in licence in Bandung, but still all made in Sevilla?

Off course it is. DI only have CN 235 and NC 212i line. They also work with Airbus military on H225 fuselage and some components. However C295 and CN 235 do shares some components, especially part of fuselages including front sections.

Seems that's where the confusions come. DI provide components and part fuselage for both CN 235 and C 295 (at least my understanding from their media imformation). However they don't have C295 line which still all the line come from Sevile.

 

[Arji]

KRIS just posted this on their group.

https://www.facebook.com/lembagakeris/photos/a.295458637229153/4846286042146367

CMIIW, but it's a request for investment to the government for PAL production capacities. There's also one for PT.LEN, PT. DI, and PT. Pindad, but I won't post it here, since it's not relevant to the thread (although, for PT DI, there's no investment regarding KFX, and only mentions request for upgrade for production for CN 235 and N219). Interesting that it mentions 10 units of Frigates. So what could it be? 6 FREMM + 2 AH140 + 2 Maestrale? or since Maestrale are refurbished old ships, and with the rumors of reduction of FREMM numbers being ordered, 4 FREMM + 2 AH140 + 4 Mogami?

 

[Ananda]

So what could it be? 6 FREMM + 2 AH140 + 2 Maestrale? or since Maestrale are refurbished old ships, and with the rumors of reduction of FREMM numbers being ordered, 4 FREMM + 2 AH140 + 4 Mogami?

Yes I already see that also, and as for DI, that's why I put in KFX thread there are no intention yet to finance the project continuation. DI prefer goes with project that potentially can bring improvement to their cash flow.

I touch DI a bit in here, because that's where those SOE defense that being told now. They have to prepare projects that realistically can bring more cash flow to make them financially solven. The creation of Defend ID as defense holding company is (one of the main task) to watch how those defense SOE projects has to make business sense. It is not a secret that those defense SOE use to making projects just for the sake of 'projects'.

So on PAL slide actually what's interesting is their plan to build facility in Batam. Before there's plan to build industrial complex in Lampung not only for PAL, but also PINDAD and other defense SOE. Kind of making Indonesian integrated MIC. However seems present SOE ministry decided against that.

There're rumours that there's one private ship yard in Batam that having big financial trouble, and potentialy being confiscate by its creditors. Its creditors mostly coming from SOE Banks. Thus the rumours put this yard as potential take over by PAL. The yard it self by my understanding have quite large property in Batam. Anyway all this is just still rumours.

Also still rumours on those 10 Frigate projects description being build by PAL. Rumours saying it is including 2 FREMM (as contract put frm 6 FREMM, 4 Build in Italy, 2 in PAL). However there's rumours those order will be modified only to 4 FREMM build in Italy all too reduce the costs. However Fincantiery will give Tech Transfer to PAL on system integration and design assistance (for future PAL project).

There are also rumours that the 2 Frigate contract with Babcock assistance on arrow 140 design will only be first batch. So potentially further PAL project will use Arrow 140 base design, as just they are doing with Daesun on LPD design.

Again all this is still rumours, I don't heard much on Mogami rumour from finance guys. One rumour that I heard is Mogami will be as expensive as FREMM to operate (due to Japanese systems). However knowing Japanese lobby network within Indonesian Bureaucrats and political circle, I'm not going to discount them.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes I already see that also, and as for DI, that's why I put in KFX thread there are no intention yet to finance the project continuation. DI prefer goes with project that potentially can bring improvement to their cash flow.

I touch DI a bit in here, because that's where those SOE defense that being told now. They have to prepare projects that realistically can bring more cash flow to make them financially solven. The creation of Defend ID as defense holding company is (one of the main task) to watch how those defense SOE projects has to make business sense. It is not a secret that those defense SOE use to making projects just for the sake of 'projects'.

So on PAL slide actually what's interesting is their plan to build facility in Batam. Before there's plan to build industrial complex in Lampung not only for PAL, but also PINDAD and other defense SOE. Kind of making Indonesian integrated MIC. However seems present SOE ministry decided against that.

There're rumours that there's one private ship yard in Batam that having big financial trouble, and potentialy being confiscate by its creditors. Its creditors mostly coming from SOE Banks. Thus the rumours put this yard as potential take over by PAL. The yard it self by my understanding have quite large property in Batam. Anyway all this is just still rumours.

Also still rumours on those 10 Frigate projects description being build by PAL. Rumours saying it is including 2 FREMM (as contract put frm 6 FREMM, 4 Build in Italy, 2 in PAL). However there's rumours those order will be modified only to 4 FREMM build in Italy all too reduce the costs. However Fincantiery will give Tech Transfer to PAL on system integration and design assistance (for future PAL project).

There are also rumours that the 2 Frigate contract with Babcock assistance on arrow 140 design will only be first batch. So potentially further PAL project will use Arrow 140 base design, as just they are doing with Daesun on LPD design.

Again all this is still rumours, I don't heard much on Mogami rumour from finance guys. One rumour that I heard is Mogami will be as expensive as FREMM to operate (due to Japanese systems). However knowing Japanese lobby network within Indonesian Bureaucrats and political circle, I'm not going to discount them.

Personally i don't think its practical and cost effective to have three different kinds of frigates beside the SIGMA 10514. But i understand that PAL can not produce 10 Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 frigates in a short period, so an additional foreign design constructed abroad is logic.

Its good to focus first on CN235 and N219, and then after production going smooth and stable, later invest into Elang Hitam UAV and N245 development.

 

[Ananda]

But i understand that PAL can not produce 10 Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 frigates in a short period, so an additional foreign design constructed abroad is logic.

You know, knowing how Indonesian SOE like to brag, I got feeling this 10 Frigate they put in the presentation perhaps not all of them build by PAL. Call it cynics (which I do with Indonesian SOE time to time), perhaps they include FREMM build by Fincantieri in the calculation.

Just like DI put the TNI C295 order as their products (which in truth all they have done is doing system integration and finalisation touch), PAL being involve with Fincantieri on system integration perhaps being put as Frigate manufacturing involvement by them.

Again this is just my cynics, perhaps they do have plan for 10 frigates building. Who knows, until more clear information come out.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

This seems to be a Sea Acceptance Test of a ScanEagle from the KRI Abdul Halim Perdanakusuma (355).
I wonder how many ScanEagles are already delivered to TNI-AL.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537792450290298880

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537778014020599808

Such tests and exercises are much more useful and effective than some WW II style exercise.

Here we can see KRI Halasan (630) with its new Bofors 57 mm Mk.3 gun.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1538493583522951168

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/100064868013480/posts/404302261742038

From Hydrodynamics Lab FB, shown hull model being test on their trial/towing pool. The FB page doesn't want to tell what model this is, thus creating speculations it is Arrow 140 base Frigate project model. After all they are doing project under PAL order.

 

[r0m8470]

This seems to be a Sea Acceptance Test of a ScanEagle from the KRI Abdul Halim Perdanakusuma (355).
I wonder how many ScanEagles are already delivered to TNI-AL.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537792450290298880

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537778014020599808

The box launcher amidship in the frigate is more interesting than the UAV, in my opinion. What is it? MM40, or Chinese C802? Looks like there is only 1?

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The box launcher amidship in the frigate is more interesting than the UAV, in my opinion. What is it? MM40, or Chinese C802? Looks like there is only 1?

It is not really visible on my small handphone-display, but as fas as i know there have never been Exocets on these Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani Class frigates.

I just found an interesting image about the new Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 design to be build by PAL.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1539527251196530688

There are some remarkable points:
- With a same width/beam as the original Iver Huitfeldt design and with a length of 143,57 m being almost 5 meter longer than the original 138,7 m, but having a displacement of 6450 ton it is slightly lighter than the original 6645 ton.
- The superstructure is a mix of the Iver Huitfeldts and the SIGMA 10514. Compared to the SIGMA 10514 the Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm CIWS is moved to the backside, like the Millennium on the Iver Huitfeldts. Compared to the Iver Huitfeldts, the front Oto Melara 76 mm is moved a couple of meters to the front and the VLS of the surface-to-air missiles are moved from the center part of the superstructure to in between the two 76 mm guns.
- Like the Iver Huitfeldts the design has also a 3D surveillance radar on the aft/third mast, but the aft/third mast and aft funnel will obstruct the helicopter control radar on the much lower middle/2nd mast.
- They use the image of an MH-60L/M/R, but calling it an EH-101. Both not in use with the TNI-AL.

 

[Ananda]

The box launcher amidship in the frigate is more interesting than the UAV, in my opinion

Empat Rudal Secara Beruntun Hantam Eks-KRI Karang Banteng - Tribunnews.com

Secara beruntun empat rudal menghantam lambung KRI Karang Banteng, menimbulkan efek ledakan hebat, nyala api yang membakar seluruh badan kapal

www.tribunnews.com

It is C802. KRI Abdul Halim Perdanakusa and his sister KRI Yos Sudarso equiped with C802, while KRI Oswald Siahaan as far as I know is the only one with Russian Yakhont. Those Van Speijks (A. Yani class in TNI-AL) equiped with Harpoon when transfer from Netherlands. However seems TNI-AL decided to use them as 'experimental' platform for Chinese and Russian SSM.

Those ex Van Speijk class supposedly being plan to decommission all 6 of them by 2022. They are supposedly being replaced by 6 Sigma 10514. However with present administration decide to goes with larger design Frigate either FREMM or Arrow 140 base design, Sigma 10514 program stop with only two. Thus so far only one of those Van Speijks being decommission. Those Frigates already in average above 50 years, seems they are going to be operational until above 60. As if the program for FREMM and Arrow 140 base Frigates run on schedule, the quantity to replace the last five Van Speijks will only available close to end of this decade.

just found an interesting image about the new Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead 140 design to be build by PAL.

Yes I also saw it on other forum yesterday, but personally I do have doubt this is going to be final configuration. That's why it's rumours Babcock told PAL and TNI-AL, if they still insist on this design, it will be complete overhaul of design.

I'm no naval engineer, but if we compared it with Arrow 140, it's not just add 5 m in length, but reposition of superstructure. This design increase the length of forward position to accommodate more VLS while seems they reduce the length of middle multipurpose area that usually where Arrow 140 or Iver put the AAW VLS and SSM box launchers.

Basically they want to put AAW VLS in front and SSM VLS in the middle (so all missile use VLS). Rumours say Babcock told PAL and TNI-AL to drop this design and goes with slightly modified design which only add around 2 meters length with similar configuration toward existing Iver and Arrow 140. If PAL and TNI-AL still insist on that design, Babcock say it will need at least another year on complete work with the design, and off course much more costs.

As we can see the Hydrodynamics Lab still working on possible hull of this Iver/Arrow base Frigate. Let's see where the final configuration will be.

 

[Ananda]

For all those models, and mock up being bring by PAL in Philippines Maritime defense, this one I believe it is more ready to proceed:



Rumours say PAL working out with Turkish shipyard, to modify their existing KCR 60.

As for that 143m LPD, even tough it is also only enlargement from existing design. However PAL want to make it as multipurpose LPD with submarine tender capabilities. That's new design for PAL, thus we have to see how PAL want to workout this multipurpose design. Should not be that difficult, still it is a new design nonetheless.

 

[koxinga]

Not a naval architect but the design seems top heavy and the freeboard was rather low. I heard they needed to do some rectification on the earlier KCR60s due to stability issues.

Given the Turkish shipyards have a wide range of designs in this category, won't it make sense to just license a design?

 

[Ananda]

Given the Turkish shipyards have a wide range of designs in this category, won't it make sense to just license a design?

That's actually one of rumours being around. However like any other Indonesian SOE, PAL has some 'reputation' that they want to maintain. Just like that design of Arrow 140 iteration they bring to Philipines defense show. It is not even a mature design, and definetely not what Babcock propose. Still they are showing it off anyway.

They already told public and parliement that for the level of Fast Missile Boat or KCR they already master it. If they go back licensing from others, then they go back to stage in late 80's when they are licensing Lursen FPB-57 design.

Anything can happen, I only shown the "mentality" of Indonesian SOE that very 'concern' of their image. That's why I suspect they are going to choose working with other yard modifying their existing design, rather than go back to licensing stage. I could be wrong tough. It is better they are buy design on mature producers then working it out latter on. This is what they are doing on LPD and Frigate, but I do have doubt they want to do it in KCR/FMB design tough. Unless MinDef force them to do so, and this can only happen if the performance of their KCR is still below standard.

They are already talk to media that their latest batch of KCR already being modified enough and then retrofitted to previous batch. If those modification still not meet TNI-AL acceptance threshold, this is where I can see they are being force to work with licensing mature design.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Some updates about the KCR-60 program.
We already saw last month that the 5th KCR-60 was officially launched and having its mooring trials.

On the 6th vessel KRI Panah 626, the Bofors 57 mm maingun was already installed. Now the ship is for 87% finished and also the two Yugoimport M71/08 20 mm gun are installed.

Kapal Cepat Rudal KRI Panah 626 Dipasangi Kanon Yugoimport Naval AD 20mm M71/08

Semakin banyak kapal perang TNI AL yang dipasangi kanon Naval AD 20mm M71/08 buatan Yugoimport. Setelah sebelumnya kanon produksi Serbia ini dipasang pada Landing Platform Dock (LPD) KRI Semarang 594, korvet KRI Fatahillah 361 dan KCR stealth KRI Golok 688, maka sebuah postingan terbaru di akun...

www.indomiliter.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1544581954921992192

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I think this is the first time that we can see Indonesian warships,KRI Raden Eddy Martadinata 331 and KRI Diponegoro 365, operating the A244/S 324 mm torpedo. I wonder if TNI-AL's other ships still use the Mk.46 torpedo.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545340993574035456

Jajal Kemampuan Alutsista, TNI AL Tembakkan Torpedo A244S di Perairan Utara Situbondo - Tribunnews.com

Penembakan torpedo TNI tersebut dilakukan dalam rangka menguji kemampuan Alat Utama Sistem Senjata (Alutsista).

m.tribunnews.com

The launch was part of an exercise together with other ships. Sadly we also see here that TNI-AL still use manually operated machine guns in the 'air defence training'.

While KRI Raden Eddy Martadinata 331 participated in the exercise north of Jawa-Timur, KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332 joined the RIMPAC 2022 exercise. We can see here KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332 with KD Lekir F26 frigate, Takanami DD-110, USS Tulsa LCS-16 and USS Wayne E. Meyer DDG-108.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1545640340203397121

A short but very nice video of KRI I Gusti Ngurah Rai 332 arriving at RIMPAC 2022.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

So in short this former South-Korean naval officer blames the Indonesians: poor maintenance and inexperienced crew.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547469277133144064

Yes the South-Koreans have operated for decades their Type 209 Chang-Bogo class submarines without accidents, but so did the Indonesians with their submarines starting from the '60s, including the Type 209/1300 Cakra class.

 

[Ananda]

in short this former South-Korean naval officer blames the Indonesians: po or maintenance and inexperienced crew.

Perhaps he's one of DSME sales agent that now vented his frustration. Who knows. However one thing so far that not really come to public knowledge the extent of the problem from those 3 DSME 1400. So far all the talk officially related to batery and recharging performance.

However I suspect more than that. This guy comparison on DSME Chang BoGo is also not entirely accurate, because DSME offer 'bit' bespoke system integration that's not follow their own Chag BoGo specs.

What create problem seems related to combination of Nanggala Incident (as that Submarine refurbished by DSME), cases in DSME 1400 being blown up by some defense "insiders" to media, plus DSME attitude that seems consider deffensive. Whether this related those agents and some in MinDef officials gank it up to uses it as giving excuse for Euro suppliers, is something I can not prove but highly suspect.

One thing for sure problem on new design (as DSME 1400 to Indonesia actually do have some "bespoke" design on system integration), happen all the time. Seems DSME still going to be ask to provide job with PAL to rectrovitted modifications work. However this's going to left some bitter after taste on Indonesia and ROK defense relationship. That kind of comment from that ex ROKN Capt seems part of that.

PT PAL Indonesia

Surabaya (12/07) Manajemen PT PAL Indonesia menerima kunjungan Chief of Naval Policy, Republic of Korea (ROK) Navy Mr. RADM. Kang Chung-Ho beserta jajaran ROK Navy yang diterima langsung oleh Senior...

www.facebook.com

I suspect this's part of Indonesian and ROK try to mend the fences.