Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Sandhi Yudha]

Perhaps he's one of DSME sales agent that now vented his frustration. Who knows. However one thing so far that not really come to public knowledge the extent of the problem from those 3 DSME 1400. So far all the talk officially related to batery and recharging performance.

However I suspect more than that. This guy comparison on DSME Chang BoGo is also not entirely accurate, because DSME offer 'bit' bespoke system integration that's not follow their own Chag BoGo specs.

What create problem seems related to combination of Nanggala Incident (as that Submarine refurbished by DSME), cases in DSME 1400 being blown up by some defense "insiders" to media, plus DSME attitude that seems consider deffensive. Whether this related those agents and some in MinDef officials gank it up to uses it as giving excuse for Euro suppliers, is something I can not prove but highly suspect.

One thing for sure problem on new design (as DSME 1400 to Indonesia actually do have some "bespoke" design on system integration), happen all the time. Seems DSME still going to be ask to provide job with PAL to rectrovitted modifications work. However this's going to left some bitter after taste on Indonesia and ROK defense relationship. That kind of comment from that ex ROKN Capt seems part of that.

PT PAL Indonesia

Surabaya (12/07) Manajemen PT PAL Indonesia menerima kunjungan Chief of Naval Policy, Republic of Korea (ROK) Navy Mr. RADM. Kang Chung-Ho beserta jajaran ROK Navy yang diterima langsung oleh Senior...

www.facebook.com

I suspect this's part of Indonesian and ROK try to mend the fences.

Well i hope DSME can solve the technical problems with the Nagapasa class, three new submarines with ToT and end assembly in Surabaya for $1,1-1,2 billion was a great deal. I also hope that KRI Cakra 401 is reliable and fully operationable after the modernization.

But to spread the risks i believe it is also a good decision to order the Scorpènes.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I don't know the details, but hopefully he will recover soon.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1547802414085918721

The 71,2 meter long HMAS Melville (HS 02/A 246) is the second ship of the Leeuwin class of hydrographic survey vessels operated by the RAN.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Members of Korps Marinir having an exercise at USMC Training Area in Bellows Air Force Station, Hawaii, as part of RIMPAC2022.
This could be also a subtile way to promote the MV-22 to the Indonesians.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548271863142694914

 

[ngatimozart]

Members of Korps Marinir having an exercise at USMC Training Area in Bellows Air Force Station, Hawaii, as part of RIMPAC2022.
This could be also a subtile way to promote the MV-22 to the Indonesians.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548271863142694914

But can you really afford it? It does have a high acquisition cost and quite a high CPFH that would stretch the military's operating budget.

 

[Ananda]

The present administration decision to practically revamp previous administrations projects, resulted to practically wasting times for this last 7 years. If they stick with the projects under SBY, at this moment TNI-AL already have at least 4 Sigma 10514 Light Frigates and 4 DSME 1400 Submarine with PAL and DSME working on finishing the 5th submarine and preparation for the 6th.

However they are wasting times by relook all the projects with 'questionable' motives asside then "I only want to work on my plan and not SBY plan". Their plan should be work it out for end of their term and next Administrations term, while they should finish SBY plan and working on implementation some early phase of their own plan. That's how you work on long term defense procurement projects.

The Covid situation plus present "Biden" energy crisis will make half of their procurement plan in question to workable (for operational contractual base) during this last two years of their term. In fact I'm sceptical most of big US items that has been 'conditionally' approve by US like MV-22 or F-15 ID can be workable during Jokowi's administration terms. C-130J practically is the only "big" procurement project with US that still working.

Sri Mulyani as Indonesian MoF already talk prolong economic depresion from 2020,21,22 even potential 23 in G20 Central Bank and Economics ministers forum. Base on rumours from 'finance' people, the priority now is to strengthen financial reserve to protect the economy.

Personally I suspect TNI-AL will be lucky to get Arrow 140 based frigates production in PAL commencing, plus some FREMM (rumours being told to be cut from 6 to 4 and all build in Italy as PAL going to focus with Arrow 140), and Indegenous OPV 90 build by Private Yards in Batam, during the last years of Jokowi's administration.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

But can you really afford it? It does have a high acquisition cost and quite a high CPFH that would stretch the military's operating budget.

It is highly unlikely that the navy will get the MV-22, the navy had never serious interest in the MV-22, it is even unlikely that the army will get the MV-22 for cost reasons. Besides that the limited budget will be kept for new vessels for the navy.

The present administration decision to practically revamp previous administrations projects, resulted to practically wasting times for this last 7 years. If they stick with the projects under SBY, at this moment TNI-AL already have at least 4 Sigma 10514 Light Frigates and 4 DSME 1400 Submarine with PAL and DSME working on finishing the 5th submarine and preparation for the 6th.

However they are wasting times by relook all the projects with 'questionable' motives asside then "I only want to work on my plan and not SBY plan". Their plan should be work it out for end of their term and next Administrations term, while they should finish SBY plan and working on implementation some early phase of their own plan. That's how you work on long term defense procurement projects.

The Covid situation plus present "Biden" energy crisis will make half of their procurement plan in question to workable (for operational contractual base) during this last two years of their term. In fact I'm sceptical most of big US items that has been 'conditionally' approve by US like MV-22 or F-15 ID can be workable during Jokowi's administration terms. C-130J practically is the only "big" procurement project with US that still working.

Sri Mulyani as Indonesian MoF already talk prolong economic depresion from 2020,21,22 even potential 23 in G20 Central Bank and Economics ministers forum. Base on rumours from 'finance' people, the priority now is to strengthen financial reserve to protect the economy.

Personally I suspect TNI-AL will be lucky to get Arrow 140 based frigates production in PAL commencing, plus some FREMM (rumours being told to be cut from 6 to 4 and all build in Italy as PAL going to focus with Arrow 140), and Indegenous OPV 90 build by Private Yards in Batam, during the last years of Jokowi's administration.

Looking to the history of cancellations of this administration, ill be not surprised if we only get two FREMMs. Or maybe the whole FREMM-plan will be put on hold.
Covid-19 and prestige projects like our new capital will be used to keep development of our armed force limited. We are lucky if the two Scorpènes, two Iver Huitfeldts/Arrowhead 140s and two OPV 90s are not cancelled.

Anyway if in the end we can get
- 2 SIGMA 10514 + 2 Iver Huitfeldts + 2 FREMMs or
- 2 SIGMA 10514 + 4 Iver Huitfeldts
it will be already great, then at least we can replace the 6 old Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani Class frigates.

 

[Ananda]

2 SIGMA 10514 + 2 Iver Huitfeldts + 2 FREMMs or
- 2 SIGMA 10514 + 4 Iver Huitfeldts

Agree it is more probable in the end it is more in the number of 6 or 8 at most. Perhaps both of us more pessimistic, but with this administration on defense development track record, even with Prabowo still not able to catching up.

Not unsurprising since this administration (including in defense) on this second term put many optimistic target, that just simply not being covered enough financially. Especially with current global market financing trend.

Personally I tend to let FREMM drop, just like with TNI-AU on F-15 and Rafale, operationally TNI-AL will be hard press to cover both Iver/Arrow 140 and FREMM based Frigates. One of them better be drop, unless significant increase on operational budget can be provided. Which is very big question as we have difficulty from one administration to another to commit more than 1.0+% GDP on defense, let alone 1.5%+

 

[swerve]

FREMM is reckoned to be a very good ASW ship, like Type 26. Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead isn't built to the same level for ASW. As a general purpose or AAW ship it could match a FREMM, depending on the sensors, control system & weapons fitted, but I think being as good for ASW would be difficult.

So, what does Indonesia want FREMMs for? If it's ASW, then it could be best to stick with them. If anything else, it might make sense to standardise on Arrowhead.

 

[ngatimozart]

FREMM is reckoned to be a very good ASW ship, like Type 26. Iver Huitfeldt/Arrowhead isn't built to the same level for ASW. As a general purpose or AAW ship it could match a FREMM, depending on the sensors, control system & weapons fitted, but I think being as good for ASW would be difficult.

So, what does Indonesia want FREMMs for? If it's ASW, then it could be best to stick with them. If anything else, it might make sense to standardise on Arrowhead.

The Italian ASW variant of the FREMM is a very good ASW ship. The French variant of the FREMM is more austere. Below is a piece I did on the Italian FREMM for a post in the RAN thread six years ago. It has sources, diagrams etc.

 

[swerve]

The Indonesians are supposed to be getting their FREMMs from Fincantieri.

What I've read says that the basic FREMM is a very good platform for ASW, though of course, that doesn't make it a good ASW ship unless it's properly equipped. I think you're saying that the Italian ASW FREMMs are better equipped. Is that right?

AFAIK the Iver Huitfeldt hull isn't optimised for ASW.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Indonesians are supposed to be getting their FREMMs from Fincantieri.

What I've read says that the basic FREMM is a very good platform for ASW, though of course, that doesn't make it a good ASW ship unless it's properly equipped. I think you're saying that the Italian ASW FREMMs are better equipped. Is that right?

AFAIK the Iver Huitfeldt hull isn't optimised for ASW.

As far as i know the Iver Huitfeldts have a hull mounted sonar and ASW torpedo tubes.
On the FREMM the Thales UMS 4110 CL hull sonar and Thales UMS 4249 CAPTAS 4 towed sonar (on Italian ASW variants) are installed beside the torpedo launchers..

Can these things not be installed on a Iver Huitfeldt? Why is the Iver Huitfeldt hull not optimised for ASW?

 

[Ananda]

these things not be installed on a Iver Huitfeldt? Why is the Iver Huitfeldt hull not optimised for ASW?

I believe what @swerve means is the FREMM hull design more optimise on ASW, while Iver/Arrow140 hull design more on GP duties. Thus even Iver base hull can do ASW work, but FREMM hull can doing it better on ASW job.

This is one of reason why Type 26 in RAN doing more ASW specialise job, and Iver base Type 31 doing more General Purpose job.

 

[ngatimozart]

I believe what @swerve means is the FREMM hull design more optimise on ASW, while Iver/Arrow140 hull design more on GP duties. Thus even Iver base hull can do ASW work, but FREMM hull can doing it better on ASW job.

This is one of reason why Type 26 in RAN doing more ASW specialise job, and Iver base Type 31 doing more General Purpose job.

The Iver can do ASW. The machinery can be rafted making it really quiet. It's an option that the Royal Danish Navy chose not to take because of cost.

 

[Ananda]

The machinery can be rafted making it really quiet. It's an option that the Royal Danish Navy chose not to take because of cost.

Considering the budget claim for 2 Iver/Arrow140 based frigates is USD 750 (FFBNW), I don't think they want to build much more in capabilities then what Danes or UK invest with.

It is been speculate or even talk by Indonesian MinDef that Indonesian FREMM will be follow Italian Bergamini specs. Question now with present economics, they can afford all plan 6 or less then that or if any during this last term of present administration. My worries just like in KFX/KF-21 it is being push to next administration. Thus means put in Political limbo.

Anyway:

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/fe-exclusive-indonesia-to-buy-brahmos-missile-from-india-talks-in-advance-stage/2598803/

Indian media claim Indonesia already in final negotiations phase for Brahmo. Before in this thread, I already put draft specs of Iver/Arrow140 based Frigates project in PAL, using VLS for SSM. Brahmo seems already can be equiped for VLS, just like Russian Yakhont that it's based on.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Considering the budget claim for 2 Iver/Arrow140 based frigates is USD 750 (FFBNW), I don't think they want to build much more in capabilities then what Danes or UK invest with.

It is been speculate or even talk by Indonesian MinDef that Indonesian FREMM will be follow Italian Bergamini specs. Question now with present economics, they can afford all plan 6 or less then that or if any during this last term of present administration. My worries just like in KFX/KF-21 it is being push to next administration. Thus means put in Political limbo.

Anyway:

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/fe-exclusive-indonesia-to-buy-brahmos-missile-from-india-talks-in-advance-stage/2598803/

Indian media claim Indonesia already in final negotiations phase for Brahmo. Before in this thread, I already put draft specs of Iver/Arrow140 based Frigates project in PAL, using VLS for SSM. Brahmo seems already can be equiped for VLS, just like Russian Yakhont that it's based on.

We will see how true this claim is, installing directly a Russian-Indian anti-ship missile on a brandnew NATO-warship, ive never seen this before.

How compatible will the Brahmos be, connected with the Italian CMS and sensors? And how about the over-the-horizon-targeting? The BrahMos has an INS on board which can be coupled to GLONASS/GPS, but even then how can the frigate know the exact position of the target?

Or will India also deliver the HAL Dhruv for the guidance?

 

[Arji]

Was it even confirmed that it's for the frigate? The article made it seems that it's for land-based defense.

 

[Ananda]

even confirmed that it's for the frigate? The article made it seems that it's for land-based defense.

The BrahMos missile that Indonesia is expected to import from India is going to be fitted onboard its warships. A team from BrahMos Aerospace joint venture between New Delhi and Moscow has already visited Indonesia shipyard to study the possibility of fitting the missile.

There's one full alinea in that article indicating the probabilities for Indonesian procurement for warships. Considering the size of Brahmo and what ships in the project in PAL (which more likely that Indian-Russian team inspect), it is deductively shown toward Arrow 140 based Frigates. The Shore based talk is for Philipines usage.

Previously the talk on shore based SSM is with Ukrainian Neptune. Considering current situation, there's talk on using C705 based Indonesian SSM project as shore base (plus on KCR). Still this is Indonesia, anything can turn unpredictable.

will see how true this claim is, installing directly a Russian-Indian anti-ship missile on a brandnew NATO-warship, ive never seen this before.

PAL will choose the system integration work for Arrow140/Iver based Frigates. Will see how they are doing this, but it is not impossible from what I gather. We still do not know yet the exact combination of the system they will choose. If PAL hold the code key of the system and Indian also open source code for Brahmo to be integrated, it is plausible to do it.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Rekam Instalasi Militer di Pulau Sebatik, 3 WNA Ditangkap

Mereka diduga melakukan pengumpulan data-data perbatasan Indonesia, termasuk disposisi dan komposisi kekuatan TNI diperbatasan

surabaya.inews.id

Six suspicious men are caught by members of the Korps Marinir who were tasked by guarding the border. Three of them were Indonesians and three of them have foreign passports with them, two Malaysian passports and one from Communist China.

|"Mereka diduga melakukan pengumpulan data-data perbatasan Indonesia, termasuk disposisi dan komposisi kekuatan TNI diperbatasan di Sei Pancang, Sebatik, Nunukan, Kalimantan Utara."|

The six pretended to survey for a civilian project, but the photos they took proved that they were collecting data of the positions of military installations, the strength and composition of the based units.

Here some more links and photos.

Imigrasi Beberkan Kronologi Penangkapan Diduga Intel Asing di Kaltara

Imigrasi beberkan kronologi penangkapan 6 orang yang diduga intel asing di Kabuppaten Nunukan, Kalimantan Utara.

www.cnnindonesia.com

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1550290245978951681

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Preparation and installation of the MM40 Exocet Block 3 on KRI Halasan 630. Great to see that this ship will not stay a FFBNW-ship.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0364DKDMS1EE4StMPCPPjYzdDhPBuFzRWRJ7djzxPqc58NschEGj2AuzTcgcaKiV9Ll&id=181276675314017&m_entstream_source=timeline

And here a live fire photo from RIMPAC 2022.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid033JsjhfGpjpRAJBEWTCR7pQ8B15QmnXF5fms1wCLwiJddJNqTVC1w4Bi9DoTudkUZl&id=181276675314017&m_entstream_source=timeline

 

[Ananda]

Video from PAL shown ceremony on Defend ID (Indonesia SOE Defense Industry Holding) some time ago. Put it here as it shown several projects that Indonesian Defend ID will focus on. Including PAL that still put DSME 1400.

Now it could be claim PAL just shown existing projects of Submarine which's officially still DSME 1400. However could this also shown 2nd batch project still in the pipeline ?

Anyway just putting this video to shown quite big ambition for Defend ID, but all back on the financial commitment.