Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
news.detik.com

KSAL Resmikan 2 Kapal Perang Baru Buatan dalam Negeri, Ini Keistimewaannya

Kepala Staf TNI Angkatan Laut (KSAL) Laksamana Yudo Margono meresmikan dua kapal perang baru buatan dalam negeri. Apa saja keistimewaannya?
news.detik.com news.detik.com

2 new PC-60 (other call it OPV-60), being ceremoniusly accepted by TNI-AL. This is basically tone down version of KCR-60 missile boats.
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|"Setelah diresmikan, dua kapal ini akan dikirim ke Sorong untuk memperkuat Koarmada 1 dan 3."|

I think Detiknews made a mistake, one PC-60 will be send to Ambon, the other to Sorong, both bases are part of Koarmada 3.

From which i understand the PC-60 'fast' patrol boats are not downgraded KCR-60s, but enlarged PC-40s, these boats are also built by the same shipyards.

www.navalnews.com

Indonesian shipyard launches two PC-60M patrol boats - Naval News

The Indonesian Navy launched and christened two PC-60 M-class fast patrol boats at the PT Caputra hipyard's facilities in Banten on March 21.
www.navalnews.com www.navalnews.com
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Ananda said:
Add to tonnyc post, C705 still being used by KCR60 little brother KCR40.


That's video on latest exercise on C705 KCR40 with target old TNI-AL tanker. This exercise shown C705 working well.

However as tonnyc put, the 2nd and 3rd batch of KCR60 already using Terma fire control instead Chinese made fire control on KCR40 and 1st batch KCR60. Indicating they will move from C705 toward Euro SSM (big potential Exocet).

C705 project actually for Indonesia to build their own SSM using China as partner. However the project seems not progressing and now Indonesia choose to reverse engineer C705 to build their own indigenous version.

Direktorat Jenderal Potensi Pertahanan Kemhan RI

www.kemhan.go.id www.kemhan.go.id

This has been put in this thread couple years ago. Not much news on the progress, I suspect due to Covid. However the project still not been cancelled, and it is been rumours Indonesia domestic propelant still need to be further redevelop to reach ideal velocity. Also rumours initial reverse engineer on Chinese electronics being shelved, and will use Euro partner for getting better performance.

View attachment 49011

Just add the reverse engineering model. This also has been put in this thread sometimes ago.
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I still don't understand why they proudly announce to start with a reverse-engineering project. Like they do not really understand the real meaning of reverse engineering, like its something cool and not just copying, imitating and theft.

Indonesia establishes consortium to reverse engineer anti-ship missile

An Indonesian consortium mainly comprising state-owned enterprises has been established to reverse engineer an anti-ship missile type with a view of establishing the...
www.janes.com
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511878704204779520

TNI-AL tweet shown both TNI-AL and ROKN chief take photos in front off ROKN Pohang Corvettes. Plus talk on improving cooperation between two navies. Potential transfer of surplus Pohang ussualy related with procurement project with ROK. As Philipines Pohang transfer related to Light Frigate/Corvettes project.

The only big procurement project for TNI AL related to ROK is the stall batch 2 DSME1400. There's possibility of PAL and DSME will also involve with retrofit on batch 1 DSME1400 to deal with electrical power deficiancies. Let's see how this progressing as PAL also still work with NG for potential Scorpene project.

If somehow budget can be given for both Batch 2 DSME 1400 and NG Scorpene projects (something that very unlikely), PAL will only work on one of them, while the other will be work by overseas yard. Again this is very unlikely considering the budget.

So more probable scenario's that PAL will work with DSME in retrofitting Batch 1 DSME 1400 while also work with either DSME 1400 Batch 2 or NG Scorpene (thus one of either project will be drop). If DSME batch 2 being drop, could that still go for Pohang ex ROKN? Will see about that. Perhaps it will as ROK thank you note for DSME 1400 Batch 1.

Sandhi Yudha said:
Like they do not really understand the real meaning of reverse engineering, like its something cool and not just copying, imitating and theft
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This is always a legal loophole on that. Just like J-11 is license copy from SU-30 while J-15 is can be call as unlicense copy or further modification done by Chinese.

Just like DSME 1400 being call by the French Salesman Twitter Guy as unlicensed copy from TKMS 209 1400, while DSME call it their own development design base on 209. Or PAL development of Makasar class LPD, is unlicensed copy from Daesun design or further modification design by PAL.

Rumours in Indonesian forums (which I also heard from a colleague in SOE Ministry), they will use C-705 as base patern. While the propelant and electronics/sensors will be develop in house or with other partner. Again legally it can be said they are doing own development.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Reverse engineering is not theft. Not sure how this incorrect belief got started. Perhaps a conflation of copyright and patent laws.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
That's why I said it has legal loophole. It can be depends on how far changes that you made from original IP. This is happen not only in defense industry but also in commercial sector.

Using someone else product as base patern happen quite often. However seems (from understanding from Lawyer that I know), it is back how far you can prove that the final design that you use already using enough changes from your own RnD that deemed eligible as seperate IP.
 
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tonnyc

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
I beg to differ. It is theft because you are taking someone's original IP without their consent.
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But no intellectual property is being taken. If there is, China would have taken us to arbitration or sue us in our court or take us to WTO. Indonesian law does recognize foreign intellectual property and we are bound by multilateral treaties to recognize and enforce other countries' intellectual property. Our enforcement is spotty, but trust me this is one area where if we aren't sure that we are covered, we wouldn't dare piss off China.

Patent law is way more restrictive than copyright law. For one thing it lapses way quicker. Chinese patents last twenty years for some aspects and ten years for others. So anything in the C-705 that is older than 2002 has its patent lapsed. Some technologies older than 2012 may also have their patents lapsed. Next, patents cover specific designs. It doesn't cover design principles. Reverse engineering tries to understand these principles and this is allowed even when the patent is active. There's a reason why licenses often prohibits reverse engineering. That's because the law doesn't forbid it. So the contract has to add the clause prohibiting it. What patent law forbids is commercially exploitation. Given that at this stage we are far away from commercial exploitation and that by the time we are ready for that the patents likely would have lapsed and our end product will be sufficiently different, again, no actual intellectual property is actually being taken.

For another example, consider the N-219. It could be argued that it's the result of some reverse engineering of the C-212. Yet CASA, Airbus, and Spain don't feel like anything was stolen. Because nothing was.

Anyway, let's move on. China is a big boy. If China thinks that we stole something of theirs, they can very well take action.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
tonnyc said:
But no intellectual property is being taken. If there is, China would have taken us to arbitration or sue us in our court or take us to WTO. Indonesian law does recognize foreign intellectual property and we are bound by multilateral treaties to recognize and enforce other countries' intellectual property. Our enforcement is spotty, but trust me this is one area where if we aren't sure that we are covered, we wouldn't dare piss off China.

Patent law is way more restrictive than copyright law. For one thing it lapses way quicker. Chinese patents last twenty years for some aspects and ten years for others. So anything in the C-705 that is older than 2002 has its patent lapsed. Some technologies older than 2012 may also have their patents lapsed. Next, patents cover specific designs. It doesn't cover design principles. Reverse engineering tries to understand these principles and this is allowed even when the patent is active. There's a reason why licenses often prohibits reverse engineering. That's because the law doesn't forbid it. So the contract has to add the clause prohibiting it. What patent law forbids is commercially exploitation. Given that at this stage we are far away from commercial exploitation and that by the time we are ready for that the patents likely would have lapsed and our end product will be sufficiently different, again, no actual intellectual property is actually being taken.

For another example, consider the N-219. It could be argued that it's the result of some reverse engineering of the C-212. Yet CASA, Airbus, and Spain don't feel like anything was stolen. Because nothing was.

Anyway, let's move on. China is a big boy. If China thinks that we stole something of theirs, they can very well take action.
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Thank you for your explanation.
There is undoubtly some C212 DNA in the N219, but the aircraft is so different, its actually a total different aircraft.

Well, its true that if we only reverse engineer it to learn and increase knowledge, then there is nothing wrong with it, specially if we combine the new knowledge with the data collected by LAPAN with decades of experiments and improved design with their own rockets, and then making an own anti-ship missile.

But i hope it will be a better product than that unreliable C-705.


I think this is the first time in decades that the Commander-in-Chief of the Indonesian Armed Forces visit an Australian submarine. Can it be even the first time?
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1511841187035947008

Now we talking about submarines, the Oracle on Twitter is talking about a budget of $2,7 billion planned for the acquisition of submarines. Can anyone confirm this?
 
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Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

TNI ANGKATAN LAUT

www.tnial.mil.id www.tnial.mil.id

This is from TNI-AL official site on the TNI-AL Chief visit to ROKN (Twitter I put on post #2,084). In here they talk also for TNI-AL chief visit ROKN 1,800 Ton submarine. Seems that's one of their Type 214/KSS II.

However they put something that I believe huge typo error. They talk on visit to ROKN 1,000 ton Nuclear Submarine. Really ? This's from TNI-AL official site and they put this ?
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Chinese Media quite neutral on the Indonesian plan to reverse engineering what being speculate on C705 line (well they're doing it more often anyway).

www.chinatimes.com

印尼建立自主國防 先逆向工程陸製C-705反艦飛彈 - 軍事

印尼國防部組織研發集團，以逆向工程的方式研究導向飛彈武器，以建立自己的精密國防工業。他們所找的第一個逆向工程目標，似乎是中陸大陸的C-705反艦飛彈。詹氏防衛網(Jane's Defence)報導，印尼國防部在4月2日的聲
www.chinatimes.com www.chinatimes.com

However I put it in here, as they're talking what Indonesia aim to build in line with land based version of C705 line.

FB_IMG_1649498392599.jpg

This Pindad presentation leak already circulate around Indonesia defense forums for some time. PINDAD is part of the consortium, perhaps this's related on that.

Using C705 as base pattern will not means it will going to be another C705. Lee Iacoca famously bring one of Japanese car in 70's (I forgot if it is Toyota or Honda even Nissan) to his team in Chrysler. He ordered them to totally dissemble and learn each components and patterns to come out with similar line for Chrysler.

Whatever the result of this reverse engineering projects it will not be C705. Iran done many reverse engineering from US and Chinese made weapon to come out with their own version.
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513245683305877505

I don't like to comment on Twitter Guy tweet, as he proved from time to time talking bit nonsense. However this one for me bit rediculous cause he compared apple to orange.

NC-212, CN-235, N-250, FPB-57, PKR Sigma are all license designs or designs (in case for CN-235 and N-250) that prepared with significant involvement from foreign designers with mature exposures.

Current FAC whether KCR-40, KCR-60, are basically domestic design being prepared (from one other thing) by the learning curve of FPB-57. After this they're (domestic designers) prepared OPV-90 design (from one other thing) by learning curve of PKR Sigma.

Just like N-219 being prepared from learning curve of NC-212 or (even tough I don't like the project and consider that as commercially unjustified) RAI R-80 being prepared by N-250 learning curve.

This happen in all Industrial stages where a country that has no experience before on designing something, work from Licensing, JV design (with more mature partner as leads), then used that to learn designing on their own.

When you designing something on your own off course there's some still adjustment process needed. His tweets clearly shown salesman mentality, not an Industry expert that he claim himself to be.
 
Sandhi Yudha

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Its just a waste of your time to talk about this failed journalist/defence expert who is obsessed with "unlicensed copy of U209" nonsense.


And here something about a KCR-40 patrolboat.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513554343756431362

I just wonder how many KCR-40 patrolboats will keep their H/PJ-13 (NG-18) 30 mm gun, and which one will get the British 30 mm Sea Hawk MSI-DS LW30 gun.
 
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tonyget

Member
"chinatimes" is Taiwanese media，just so you know

Ananda said:
Chinese Media quite neutral on the Indonesian plan to reverse engineering what being speculate on C705 line (well they're doing it more often anyway).

www.chinatimes.com

印尼建立自主國防 先逆向工程陸製C-705反艦飛彈 - 軍事

印尼國防部組織研發集團，以逆向工程的方式研究導向飛彈武器，以建立自己的精密國防工業。他們所找的第一個逆向工程目標，似乎是中陸大陸的C-705反艦飛彈。詹氏防衛網(Jane's Defence)報導，印尼國防部在4月2日的聲
www.chinatimes.com www.chinatimes.com

However I put it in here, as they're talking what Indonesia aim to build in line with land based version of C705 line.
Click to expand...
 
D

deadlast

Member
Sandhi Yudha said:
Its just a waste of your time to talk about this failed journalist/defence expert who is obsessed with "unlicensed copy of U209" nonsense.


And here something about a KCR-40 patrolboat.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1513554343756431362

I just wonder how many KCR-40 patrolboats will keep their H/PJ-13 (NG-18) 30 mm gun, and which one will get the British 30 mm Sea Hawk MSI-DS LW30 gun.
Click to expand...
Clurit-class (KCR-40), consisting of 8 ship now has 4 different main gun in 3 different caliber:
  • KRI Clurit (641) with H/PJ-13 (NG-18) CIWS - 30x165mm
  • KRI Kujang (642) with H/PJ-13 (NG-18) CIWS - 30x165mm
  • KRI Beladau (643) with Leonardo OTO Marlin WS 30 - 30x173mm
  • KRI Alamang (644) with Leonardo OTO Marlin WS 30 - 30x173mm
  • KRI Surik (645) with MSI-DS LW A1 - 30x173mm
  • KRI Siwar (646) with Leonardo OTO Marlin WS 30 - 30x173mm
  • KRI Parang (647) with Leonardo OTO Marlin WS 30 - 30x173mm
  • KRI Terapang (648) with Denel GI-2 - 20x139mm
 
Ananda

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Put it in here as the ceremony in PT. PAL, and it's then under PT. PAL official video. However this is the launching of Defend.id the holding company for all Indonesian defense SOE. Basically it is Indonesian ambition to build similar thing like 'Leonardo' or ST-Enginering as one holding company for defense.

In paper this is going to hope for more stringent and efficient capital usage and better control on projects.

FQx4_z2aAAYAsQ8.jpeg

During this ceremony it is also signed several projects :

GCI radar with PT. LEN, Small Caliber ammo with PT. Pindad, MRO on structural work for TNI-AU C-130 with PT. DI, Defense electronics between PT. LEN with Thales, and MOU for AAV production between PINDAD and FNSS Turkey.

Interesting on C-130 MRO, before the contract being put with Garuda Aero (as leading Aerospace MRO in Indonesia). However seems they put it now under DI, has to be seen if Garuda Aero still involved nor not. Logically it should be as Garuda Aero have much better track record on MRO then DI.

Note: Video in Indonesian and mostly only ceremonial.
 
A

Arji

Active Member
Ananda said:
Interesting on C-130 MRO, before the contract being put with Garuda Aero (as leading Aerospace MRO in Indonesia). However seems they put it now under DI, has to be seen if Garuda Aero still involved nor not. Logically it should be as Garuda Aero have much better track record on MRO then DI.
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I think what they meant is modernization of Hercules up to the H version instead of the MRO. I remember seeing offset material PT.DI receive in some seminar (forgot what it's called), shortly after the signing for Rafale. There, PT.DI listed C-130 modernization as one of the offset item for the purchase of C-130J. Here is the slides...

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2017019818458396&id=1222648834562169
 
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