India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

Wil the Arjun be better than the T-90?


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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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redsoulja said:
I think you'll find that invariably these articles are predicated around the fact that existing platforms are being challenged in the normal tankers scenario - this has happened ever since the germans designed a round to punture an armoured skin - everyone thought that tanks were the next dinosaur. It's happened with the AT round, rocket launched shaped charges, tank destroyers, wire guided ATM,s Helo's tasked for AT roles, Fixed wing artillery (like the Thunderbolt), super guns (like the 88) etc...., pop up helo killer teams, top down munitions, MLRS etc....

In all cases except for top down ATM's there has been an evolutionary response and the tank survives through a design iteration. I'm not saying that we will never see the tank as a dominant battlefield unit again, but it sure isn't a dinosaur yet.

Tanks are already being designed around electronic pulse weapons, that means that a full RCWS will be able to react in an anti-air and and anti skin role. Some of the electronic weapons solutions being trialled have been worked upon for some 3 years already - so in the case of 1 particular solution, I can see that it will survive against a top down attack as its response system is already faster than the incoming.

There's a way to go yet - but it's not within a generation. The platform is going to re-appear - it just won't look like a huge single main gun on a flat chassis anymore.
 

redsoulja

New Member
simply the tank is going to evolve
what happens when atank evolves far from its original purposes and technical capabilities?
it becomes something else, it isnt necessarily a tank anymore
thus tanks are now evolving into ligher faster machines
heavy taks will exist but they are not needed as much
read teh articles if u dont beleive me


and u havent addressed the 'decline of the heavy tank'
 

gf0012-aust

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redsoulja said:
simply the tank is going to evolve
what happens when atank evolves far from its original purposes and technical capabilities?
it becomes something else, it isnt necessarily a tank anymore
thus tanks are now evolving into ligher faster machines
heavy taks will exist but they are not needed as much
read teh articles if u dont beleive me


and u havent addressed the 'decline of the heavy tank'
I didn't actually address some of the issues for a reason. But, as an example. If a tank is able to fire a volume of rounds at a given target in the same time with quadruple the throw weight - is it a hevaier tank? Is the heavy tank defined by platform weight or by delivery weight of ammo within a specific time frame - eg 4 seconds. (using that as the fastest initial reload time of an automatic loader before degradation - a valid real time bench mark)

Using those parameters, some of the future tanks will have the firepower of a current generation of a troop of tanks but in a physically smaller package.

The heavy MBT will be around but in a lighter platform - it doesn't need to be physically as big due to various weapons technologies - but it sure as hell will be a bigger hitter.

The tank is designed to get heavy rounds on target - nothing more, nothing less. The original tanks were like land battleships, some of them had 3-4 guns. So they have evolved beyond the original concept already - evolution being what it is, they will evolve further. eg who would have thought in 1914 that cavalry would evolve into light AFV's and medium hitting Helos?
 

gf0012-aust

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armage said:
Dont they already have tanks (on the planning broad) that will be remote controlled?
Nope. the largest RCV is truck sized and is a chassis only. It's about the size of a cement mixer.

The largest fully remote controlled tracked weapons systems I've seen is substantially smaller and is fitted with a 40mm electronic mortar system (metalstorm technology).

There are other RCV's with partial control of either the weapons system or the drivetrain/steering. But the only one with full RCV is the metalstorm tracked unit.
 

dabrownguy

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Ex Colonial objects to the Arjun Induction!

While I was browseing the BR forum I cam across a post by some one claiming to be ex military. This is really a interesting read so I thought I would bring the conversation here.
Ajai Shukla



Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 11
Location: New Delhi
Posted: 06 Oct 2004 Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear all,

Someone pointed me towards the Bharat Rakshak forum as one where there was much heartburn over my NDTV story on the signing of the JV between DENEL and BEML. I normally don’t respond to viewers but I’ll make an exception here.

I don’t know any of you and I’m not sure whether you even know each other, but let me start by introducing myself. I’m NDTV’s Defence Editor, an ex Colonel in the armoured corps, who retired after commanding Hodson’s Horse, a crack armoured regiment equipped with T-72s. I have been a tank man for 22 years and a graded instructor in tank automotives and electronics. I have participated extensively in the Arjun field trials.

This is not to say that I know a great deal more about armour philosophy, design, ethos, operations and tactics than anyone here ever will; all I’m saying is that you may be a bit smug and premature in assuming that every journalist is a “jackass†(MT Singha), “sensationalist†(JCage), or is engaged in “subterfuge†and “double crossing†(Raju).

Furthermore, I am in first hand touch with people in the army, many of them my course-mates and buddies, who operate the systems that you all only read and hear about. I often visit the ordnance factories where equipment is manufactured, sometimes attend the trials of key platforms and in any case keep myself informed by chatting to those who are involved in trials. My views on equipment are shaped by how the equipment is shaping up, not by notions of patriotism.

For those who like to brand as “Pakis†or “Chinese†all critics of Indian weapons procurement programmes, I would only ask: who’s anti-national? People who try to ensure that 78,000 crore rupees of Indian money buys the country robust and effective defence, or those who don’t give a damn where it is spent; everything’s fine, as long as the middlemen are making money? Like RajeevT who is “praying that this deal be passed.â€

Finally, I don’t need to prove my nationalist credentials in some website chatroom. I’ve already done that in live operations for India.

Now on to the issue. Why don’t we need the DENEL-Arjun hybrid SP gun?

First: India hasn’t fought a war in thirty-three years and is unlikely to fight one again soon. What it urgently needs is not an expensive, heavy SP gun that is optimized for strike corps operations in desert terrain. Instead it needs larger numbers of towed 155mm artillery that can be used anywhere along the border, including for their most likely employment task : punitive fire assaults across the LOC. The Kargil conflict (not war, a limited skirmish involving less than two divisions is not a war) illustrated the value of dual-use, towed artillery that can support both strike corps thrusts as well as mountain division operations. So a heavy SP gun is a poor choice for India to begin with.

Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.

Third : JCage, you argued that I contradicted my own story in which some army officer “noted that the Arjun tank had cleared all trialsâ€. Wrong. Some army guy saying it doesn’t mean that I am saying it. I have consistently argued that the Arjun tank has serious drawbacks; if you know someone in the armoured corps, ask him. The first few series production tanks handed over to the user unit have all been handed back. They all had serious problems.

Fourth : There are serious issues of strategic mobility that will dog any inter-theatre movement of the proposed SP gun. It’s not just about weight… though that will be a major problem in moving a 50-ton-plus gun across a country where many bridges are no stronger than class 40. The bigger issue is about size. The Arjun already sticks out on either side of a railway wagon which means that it cannot be taken on any line that has a platform on the side. After mating the Bhim turret, you will also have height problems, which means that the railways will have to give Over-dimension Clearance (ODC) each time the gun moves by rail.

Fifth : The DENEL gun, thanks to the single vendor situation that we have gotten ourselves into, is being sold to us at an exorbitant price. The cost of a single SP gun will be 20 crores plus. That’s a shocking price, in a country where the most modern MBT --- traditionally the most expensive platform --- comes for 9 crores. Why are we in this situation? I leave it to you.

Sixth : Your questions on artillery guns firing anti-tank rounds. Every artillery battery in the Indian army is trained to fire, with guns level, at tanks attacking their gun position. It’s called “firing through open sightsâ€. The shell of an artillery gun has a far slower muzzle velocity than that of a tank gun (T-72, 1800 metres per second, the highest muzzle velocity in the world), but it’s considerably heavier. A 155 mm HE round ploughing into a tank at 1500 metres would send its turret flying. Even a 130 mm HE round would knock out the tank. OK, Nandai? And Singha… RAP is of no use in firing over open sights. The rocket would not kick in soon enough to make a difference to the muzzle velocity.

Seventh : Rajkatare, the Indian armed forces have a long and illustrious history of having unsuitable weaponry shoved down their throats. The Vijayanta tank is just one example. The Bofors scandal, for those old enough to have followed it, revealed that the selection can be manipulated without a problem. It was just our good fortune that it’s a great gun.

There’s more… but I shall leave it here for now. Watch NDTV; my news may not be politically correct, but at least it’ll be correct.

Best regards,

ajai

Does anyone have any comments? :smokingc: [/code]
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Ex Colonial objects to the Arjun Induction!

I'd look at it in a different way perhaps.

Now on to the issue. Why don�t we need the DENEL-Arjun hybrid SP gun?

First: India hasn�t fought a war in thirty-three years and is unlikely to fight one again soon. What it urgently needs is not an expensive, heavy SP gun that is optimized for strike corps operations in desert terrain. Instead it needs larger numbers of towed 155mm artillery that can be used anywhere along the border, including for their most likely employment task : punitive fire assaults across the LOC. The Kargil conflict (not war, a limited skirmish involving less than two divisions is not a war) illustrated the value of dual-use, towed artillery that can support both strike corps thrusts as well as mountain division operations. So a heavy SP gun is a poor choice for India to begin with.
What is being contested then is appropriate doctrine. One assumes that static artillery is sited in an area where it is heavily defended from air strikes and can be relocated with relative rapidity in the event of the area of ops being threatened.

SP is used for issues of mobility. Static targets are easier to kill. Static artillery is vulnerable to MLRS responses and certainly vulnerable to airborne cavalry, anti-armour strikes. Mobile platforms have the advantage of being able to fire and move with less risk. If the fire control system is up to the mark, then shoot and scoot is not a problem.

Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.
Disagree strongly with this. There is clear documented history of US, British and Sth African SP artillery pieces having low maint rates and high availability rates. If you are building an SP as suggested, then I am not surprised that there are problems - that is a quality control, project management problem - not a platform problem per se. I would question whether he has seen a platform of the quality of the PZH 2000 for example. There is a quantum leap in quality control compared to that platform and a caesar or a K9 even.


Third : JCage, you argued that I contradicted my own story in which some army officer �noted that the Arjun tank had cleared all trials�. Wrong. Some army guy saying it doesn�t mean that I am saying it. I have consistently argued that the Arjun tank has serious drawbacks; if you know someone in the armoured corps, ask him. The first few series production tanks handed over to the user unit have all been handed back. They all had serious problems.
Agree entirely

Fourth : There are serious issues of strategic mobility that will dog any inter-theatre movement of the proposed SP gun. It�s not just about weight� though that will be a major problem in moving a 50-ton-plus gun across a country where many bridges are no stronger than class 40. The bigger issue is about size. The Arjun already sticks out on either side of a railway wagon which means that it cannot be taken on any line that has a platform on the side. After mating the Bhim turret, you will also have height problems, which means that the railways will have to give Over-dimension Clearance (ODC) each time the gun moves by rail.
I question this on the basis that I would assume that India (because she has looked at poarticular weapons systems) knows that there are specific bridge clearance heights and logistics to meet. The numbers are there for anyone with the right access to see. The problem here is one of logistics and not defining structural engineering restrictions etc... One would assume that India has a logisitics map for each state that details bridge, culvert and access width issues for all its heavy vehicles. These issues are the reasons as to why some countries look at Ceasar rather than a K9, PZH2000, Bhim, etc... Thats not a platform problem. Thats a planning problem being confused with a tasking issue.

Fifth : The DENEL gun, thanks to the single vendor situation that we have gotten ourselves into, is being sold to us at an exorbitant price. The cost of a single SP gun will be 20 crores plus. That�s a shocking price, in a country where the most modern MBT --- traditionally the most expensive platform --- comes for 9 crores. Why are we in this situation? I leave it to you.
Agree completely, again this is a planning and procurement process management problem - there are better platforms where a better price could be negotiated.

Sixth : Your questions on artillery guns firing anti-tank rounds. Every artillery battery in the Indian army is trained to fire, with guns level, at tanks attacking their gun position. It�s called �firing through open sights�. The shell of an artillery gun has a far slower muzzle velocity than that of a tank gun (T-72, 1800 metres per second, the highest muzzle velocity in the world), but it�s considerably heavier. A 155 mm HE round ploughing into a tank at 1500 metres would send its turret flying. Even a 130 mm HE round would knock out the tank. OK, Nandai? And Singha� RAP is of no use in firing over open sights. The rocket would not kick in soon enough to make a difference to the muzzle velocity.
Lets assume that the tank is engaging at beyond 4km (which is an effective engagement rate for german guns) The rate of fire of the tank will be higher and more accurate than the artillery. With a decent fire control system and stabiliser, the tank master gunner in the US army can only qualify by hitting a moving 1 sqm target at 4km and with a specific number of rounds fired off as well - that is way better than what modern manually fired artillery pieces can do. If a tank is travelling in a combined arms manner, then the artillery will be neutralised by assisting forces well before the tank comes into range. The enemy of a a tank since WW1 has been artillery, the enemy of artillery has been longer more accurate counter fire, airborne cavalry or infantry response teams working as autonomous units. In contemporary terms, new types of MLRS are better at grid killing an artillery sector than attempting to place your own towed artillery in place. The issue is tactics and interpretation of doctrine.

Seventh : Rajkatare, the Indian armed forces have a long and illustrious history of having unsuitable weaponry shoved down their throats. The Vijayanta tank is just one example. The Bofors scandal, for those old enough to have followed it, revealed that the selection can be manipulated without a problem. It was just our good fortune that it�s a great gun.
Having dealt with Bofors, there is more to this scandal/incident than allowed to pass consumption in the press. The Indian Army also failed some fundamental processes as well in the assessments. eg they failed to provide benchmark ammo (clients problem - not the gun manufacturer as the client must provide the baseline and persistent data off of the ammo) They also failed miserably in communications across various levels.

There are reasons as to why howitzers come in different platform types - it all gets down to the theatre of likely ops, logistics, doctrine issues and integration of that tactical skillset into combined ops.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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redsoulja said:
gary i found a site that talks about RC tanks
what do u derive from it?
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001testing/adams.$$$$$$$
http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/0/1948D6915CF48BFE85256DF10074E88E?opendocument
ok, they aren't tanks, but they are AFV's. But they are to test the concepts onlt (CTD's)

I think there is a firm limited future for RC tanks - but it will be very much a limited role until a number of outstanding issues are addressed. Data Integrity, range, bandwidth, autonomy issues etc... will all limit to some extent what the platform can do "outright" when compared to a manned MBT. Personally I think that there are other remote controlled combined arms opportunities which will develop and grow faster than the RC tank.
 

redsoulja

New Member
gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep the people alive, no one would worry about human casualties, maybe they will have software programs in the future that can allo the tank to fight the tank war intelligently with trained professionals overlooking the comat, isnt this where the pentagon is headed and the future donald rumsfeld envisions?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
redsoulja said:
gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep the people alive, no one would worry about human casualties, maybe they will have software programs in the future that can allo the tank to fight the tank war intelligently with trained professionals overlooking the comat, isnt this where the pentagon is headed and the future donald rumsfeld envisions?
Yes and no. There are clear benefits in reducing manpower losses and by automating some functions (like RCWS) - but generally, I think this is a long way off from being a reality - there are too many difficulties in a number of areas.

The next biggest problem is situational awareness of the RC operator - it doesn't matter how many sensors you stick on the platform, the operator loses instinctive touch. Apart from that, AI is nowhere near a deliverable stage.

I also think that the MBT will change in it's core function - and assessing an RC Tank will be really embryonic only. The weaps delivery platforms will be compeletely different within 12-15 years - so the MBT as we know it will be less likely or familiar to us.
 

tatra

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Verified Defense Pro
Re: Ex Colonial objects to the Arjun Induction!

Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.
What is overlooked here is that the the GH turret in question, while derived from the turret of the South African G6 wheeld SPGH, was design from the beginning as a self-contained unit. Consequently, the situation is not one of "having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis" and "without any design having gone into it".

The T6 is unique in that respect, when compared to other turrets used in India's hybrid SPG testing on T72 chassis (i.e. the Czech turret came from Dana SPHG, the Brit turret came from Vickers AS90 SPGH, the French turret came from AUF-1 SPGH). The T-72 chassis prooved too light for the SPGH purpose. AFAIK, only the T6 turret was trialled on Arjun chassis.

Incidentally, the turret of the AS90 was succesfully mated to a different chassis that the original (Polish Krab SPGH) but it was a purpose designed chasis and not a regular tank chassis. Perhaps this succes is in part also because the turret of the AS90 was derived from the Vickers GBT 155mm gun turret of the early 1980's which - like the T6 - was designed so that it could be fitted to an existing tank chassis.
 

Jacob

New Member
Indian economy has one of the fastest growing rates in the world.It has already started producing one of the most advanced aircrafts in the world:The Sukhoi-30 MKI.Plus it is working on ambitious projects like the Surya ICBM,HAL LCA & MCA[medium Combat Aircraft],AVATAR hypersonic spacecraft & many others.
There is a huge need of MBTs for the Indian Army.Do u think a country working on Hypersonic planes won't afford to produce 200 MBTs?????
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
I think everybody here would agree that the problem is not whether India can afford to produce 200 Arjun's for its Army. The problem is: can India continue to afford projects like the ones you mention if these project follow the pattern of the Arjun program? That is, spending a lot of time, money and human energy to develop an piece of equipment and then doing only a small production run because the intended customer (Army in this case) doesn't want the equipment because it doesn't meet an operational requirement.

What do you think happens to unit price when development costs are to be recouped throught the sale of just 200 units instead of, say, 1000-1500 units? Unless you write off the development costs ( = a loss for the producer), you end up with units that are overly expensive (= extra cost for the customer). In this case, the government of India is both producer and customer and the taxpayer pays the price either way.
 

srirangan

Banned Member
The problem is: can India continue to afford projects like the ones you mention if these project follow the pattern of the Arjun program?
The first step is always the hardest. Doesn't mean a child gives up walking. That being said the Arjun 2 MBT is hardly a failure, in certain scenario's and situations it's proved to have been more ideal for the IA than the T-90's.
 

driftder

New Member
Interesting read. Didn't know that MBT development is so plagued by so much trouble.

BTW, this Ajai Shukla - he's got a point there. Unless I am mistaken, his comments are angled to getting weapons that fight well in India's climate, terrain and environment. A very dangerous man - his views on combined ops if taken seriously is going to dent any attackers plans. But then again, he talk more like a infantry commander then a armoured one.

I won't know anything abt India's SPH but if its true, then I guess our own SPH must be developed carefully. I mean won't want a tank or AFV that is wider thatn the road transport system.

It be interesting to watch how India develops its AFV minus all the hype and chest thumping. :nonsense
 

PLAbuddy

New Member
:cop

Admin edit: Stay on topic. Irrelevant text deleted.

Also, try and show some sensitivity to what is happening - this is not the time and place to try and ass wipe in here!
 

PLAbuddy

New Member
mod edit: highsea: off topic comments deleted

and how is ajun's fire-control system?

better than hunter-killer?
 

Superbug

New Member
mod edit: highsea: off topic comments deleted

BTW, India is better off buying Chinese newest tanks if India just want to fend off Pakistanese tanks. Due to India and China geograhpy and previous hot spots, it's unlikely that either side will be using main battle tanks when face each other in a war.
 
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