India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

Wil the Arjun be better than the T-90?


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Roger Smith

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yutong chen said:
With current economy in India, I don't think it can produce and high tech MBTs.
India can easily "buy out" advance technology for MBT with its current economy and foreign exchange reserves, which is at $110 billion. :)

Chen.............Neh ho ma? :smokingc:

PS: Chen, if you are a Chinese, you will understand what I said in Cantonese. ;)
 

adsH

New Member
Roger Smith said:
yutong chen said:
With current economy in India, I don't think it can produce and high tech MBTs.
India can easily "buy out" advance technology for MBT with its current economy and foreign exchange reserves, which is at $110 billion. :)

Chen.............Neh ho ma? :smokingc:

PS: Chen, if you are a Chinese, you will understand what I said in Cantonese. ;)

Buying out tech for the whole or part of the 110 bill is not a sound economical move why buy it when u can invest in R&D and other growth earning opertunities. that 110 bill has to be invested in the economy i don't think its a good idea to keep in the bank means ur economy is not growing at the rate it should. UK reserves are kept at the lowest possible for investement so the economy grows thats why UK is a real power in the world we use our heads.
India has 200 million people below poverty line peole are dying of hunger how can any one think of becomeing a world power when ur people are dying of lack of food clean drinking water and education and health care, shows the insensitivity. that useless and unutilized 110 bill should be used as capital to invest in education helthcare and investment instead of spending it on defense( indias defense is adequate to defend itself in the short and the long runn its enormous man power is a deterent by its self) if your next generation is not as well and are dying your decreasing your productivity (thats why UK lets imgirants settle here in the UK). Family plaaning is important the population is unhealthy your(India'S) virtually non exsiting National helth service(if there is one) is under extreame presure. Reforms should be introduced to provide opertunities to the poorest and underprivileged people of the nation. the poor infrastructer should be mdernized like all means of transport roads, train service, highways and Airports sea ports and access to the remotest areas where electricity and telphone and water drainage and police service health care education should be provided. then there will be real productivity and growth, utilization of the entire poulation then you would be able to develop any thing and buy anything.

My personal opinion is that novices would say such ridiculous things like " "buy out" advance technology for MBT" "which is at $110 billion"


One more thing foreign exchange is used to buy food and settle forien debts so 110 bill in bank does not mean india does not have out standing foreign payments to settle. imports and exports. the reserves like that is only collected over years of saving spending all of it in a shopping spree would mean the spender is irresponsible.

The soviets decided to spend all there earned bucks on weapons system and there military and the result as expected they fell back on there backs, collapseing with the burden of there debts. and expense of maintaing defense.
 

BruteGorilla

New Member
dabrownguy,

It seems a lot of people believe it is better than the T-90 and the Al-Khalid.
Al Khalid is a light class and there is actually Tank -EX to compare with it. Noversion of T-90S is better than Arjun.

gf0012
Vickers is Vijyanta. Arjun is entirely new tank.

Aussie Digger
Don't you find it a bit odd that they are working on an Arjun 2, before the Arjun comes into service?
There are 50 odd tanks on initial Arjun design. Engine was underpowered so they started building on and german MTU engine.

umair
challenger had similar problems in Oman. Fortunately bothe Chalenger and arkuns are working fine in desert with modifications. How do you build a moderan tank without increasing the weight? If someone says a light takn X is best in the world, show him a mental asylum.

cheenum
But my opinion is T90 is a better tank than Arjun MBT. Thats why Indian Army is planning to use them both.
I differ. T-90S was inducted in haste. Arjuns are late in induction.

adsH,
fortunately, Arjun project has no russian engineers. Unlike China and Pakistan who actually employ renegade Russian and Ukranian scientist.
Russia wouldn't produce Arjun because of Black Eagle project.
 

adsH

New Member
BruteGorilla said:
mysterious said:
Mr. BruteGorilla, I'd suggest you read some info from this other thread before degrading Al-Khalid against your own 'self-proclaimed' indigenous MBTs: http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14310#14310 Hope that is enough for a reality check. :smokingc:
I don't know what you want to tell me. Be specific.
brute mate i am sure the Pakistani tank was made by the Ukrainains and the chinese and pakistani engineers were only there to learn but is'nt this how EF2000 was made in a consortium and JSF all the best ech here in england is shared amongst allies like the US.
 

dabrownguy

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http://orbat.com/site/jawan/april2004/Arjun.pdf
Arjun - Mighty warrior or a mere mortal Vishal Kansagra
21 March 2004

History has been witness to many epic battles, but no battles have been so decisive as any conflict between armour. Tanks have played a major role in any war since its invention during the First World War. Since then, tanks have become an integral part of an army- its size and role notwithstanding. Same was the case during wars of '65 and '71 between India and Pakistan. Both countries were engaged in massive armour battles on the Western front. At the end of that war, the Indian army realized the limitations of their tank fleet consisting of vintage Centurions, PT-76, T-55 and other assorted tanks in the harsh desert conditions of Rajasthan. Army required a tank, which could fight well in plains of Punjab as well as desert of Rajasthan. Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) belonging to the Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) took on the job of designing this new MBT and came out with MBT-80, proof-of-concept vehicle in 1974. Three decades later the end product strongly resembles the Leopard II, thanks to inputs provided by various German firms. Many had criticized DRDO for its failure to deliver a credible tank to IA after so many
years of research. As one of the prominent writer said "DRDO has produced a lemon after all this years of research."

Since now the future of the Arjun is looking quiet promising, it would be prudent to provide the reader with details of all that went through to make the Arjun from a `lemon' to a fearsome MBT (Main Battle Tank).

History
Based on battlefield experiences, it was learnt that 105mm gun tend to lose power and accuracy at longer ranges. As these lessons were incorporated into the new MBT project, the Arjun was designed to have a 120mm rifled main gun. This gun has been indigenously developed by DRDO. One major concern was that of mobility. To rectify it, a 1,400 HP German engine was selected. As turbine engines are considered fuel-guzzlers, it was decided that Arjun would have a diesel powerplant. To enable Arjun to fire on the move, a digital fire control system (FCS) with a laser range finder was also included. One of the early 'Chetak' prototypes was unveiled to the public on Indian Republic Day, 26 January 1984. Another public rollout followed in April 1985, after which the name 'Arjun' became the official name. At the time, it was reported to have a German MTU-based 1400 HP diesel (until an indigenous one was ready), with a weight of 'about' 50 tons (act
ually 52, though the sketch concepts were around 40-45 tons) and a price tag of US $1.6 million (2 crore rupees, to total 15.5 crore for the whole project). Tank's FCS was based on the Marconi SFCS600, linked to a Barr & Stroud Tank Laser Sight and IR8 Thermal Imager. Meanwhile, Arjun development costs continued to rise, from October 1980 Rs. 56.55 crores to Rs 280 crores in May 1987. In 1993 the first six prototype tanks were handed over to the 43rd Cavalry Regiment for troop trials at Rajasthan's Mahajan range. Accuracy trials from mid-1994 indicated an erratic first hit ratio that ranged from 20-80%, though this was supposedly reduced to 90% during subsequent troubleshooting. At that point, the first production, Arjuns were projected to be in service by 1995. Years of fire-power and tactical tests on the firing ranges in desert and semi-arid conditions followed, until the Indian Army considered the results 'excellent'. The Pakistani deal with the Ukraine to purchase T-80UD/T-84's announced in the fall of 1995 caused another flurry of activity in the Indian military community. At that point, the Arjun had just failed field trials in June. More were set for August and November but observers figured that the US $ 100 million programme has progressed too far to be easily terminated. On 9 January 1996 the Arjun was formally unveiled and cleared for mass production in a ceremony presided over by Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao. According to Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, the Indians consider the Arjun comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclerc. However, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Shankar Roy chowdhury pointed out that, while some of the tank's parameters needed to be 'further finetuned', they have enough confidence to plan Arjun variants; mobile assault guns ('self-propelled platforms' or self-propelled artillery), Observation
Post Vehicle and Air Defence (Gun or Missile), recovery, engineer and bridgelayers. New bridgelayers and recovery vehicles would be necessary, given the Arjun's substantial weight increase over the T-72M1 series. Most of India's roads are in the 40 ton military classification range, save for national highways' 70 ton range. The 59-ton (58.5 tons) 15th Variant could achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country of 40 kph with it's 1400 HP powerplant. The Arjun's hydropneumatic suspension can be hardened or softened, according to the terrain and the 1610 litre fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles). The 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks were supposed to be supplied t
o three armoured regiments for testing in 1996, but it wasn't until 27 August that the Defence Production and Supplies Secretary ordered them from the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (at which point, one Indian media estimate placed the project cost at US $ 112 million or 400 million Rupees). However, the Indian Defence Ministry's publicised cost for these 15 tanks was US $ 38.2 million (RI.62 billion). Delivery of the prototype lot was completed in April `97, field trials were again declared completed and series production was to start in early June '97. There were many problems to be answered one of them was that the technology transfer agreements for the imported engine, gun control system, fire-control system had most vendors (like MTU and Holland's Oldelft, which makes the LRS 5 Fire Control System) producing components in India in a phased manner. The production of 100 Arjun Mk.1 MBTs was expected to start by late 1997 (during the Ninth Defence Plan) at an estimated cost of US$ 2.8 million [Rs. 10 crores] each. A later claim by DRDO stated that it needed up to (Rs 1,800 crores) to produce 120 tanks over the next five years, with each one costing US $ 4.2 million [Rs
15 crores]. Another cost estimate figured that the Arjun will be over Rs 26 billion by 2001 for two or three regiments (124 tanks), totalling around US $5.6 million (Rs 200 million) per tank. This escalating estimate does not include the cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support for the Arjun's induction into service, which is estimated at over (Rs 5 billion). Country's progressively shrinking defence budget, coupled with the persistent technical problems, further delayed any serious Arjun serial production. In early August, 1997 General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, Army chief of staff, promised officers and soldiers of the 13th Armoured Regiment that the Arjun would enter production soon. Less than two months later, DRDO was shaken by the desertion of scores of military scientists and engineers lured to the more lucrative private sector, jeopardizing the success of the Arjun project. As of 18 September, the Indian Parliament approved a $6.9 Billion (250 billion Rupees) Five-Year Defence Budget. In this 1997-2002 budget, some 40 Billion Rupees has been allocated for the Ajeya (Indian name for T-72) rebuild programme, and another 1 Billion Rupees for the first 100 Arjuns. By early May, 1998, the US decision to impose sanctions on India could possibly have jeopardized the Arjun's further development, since some US companies were supplying elements of the main gun-sighting and fire- control systems for the Arjun tank. There was also speculation as to whether Germany would stop supplying MTU engines. Arjun Executive Board (AEB) narrowed their choices for an FCS to Thomson CSF and Elbit of Israel (which could also be used in the T-72M1 'Rhino'). The imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 to 60% in PPS. (Pre-Production Series) enhancing the costs substantially. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Summer 1997 trials, released in mid-1998, noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of the transmission fluid, probably because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded.

Teething problems
Even after crores had been spent on the project the future of Arjun looked very bleak since Army was not ready to accept Arjun until most of the problems had been sorted out. Pakistan acquired 315 T-80U from Ukraine and this was a cause of concern for Army, which needed a similar if not better MBT to counter T- 80U. They turned to T-90S from Russia, which was considered superior to T-80U. Field trials of T-90S began in 1999. At $ 3 million apiece, it was worth it. To many it looked like the last nail in Arjun's coffin. Arjun's list of problems read something like this: Arjun weighed 58 to
ns, while all the major national highways could only support weight upto 40 tons. Higher weight also meant that Arjun could not use the bridges designed to handle ~40 ton T-72M1. Old & inefficient MTU engine, which heated up frequently making Arjun unsuitable for deployment in Rajasthan. To counter overheating, a cooling pack was installed which reduced the ammo capacity & affected gun depression. Failure to develop an indigenous 1500 hp engine. Defective optics, especially commander's main sight. Problems with the FCS, which could not perform in temperatures above 42 Celsius. Poor operational mobility to due to its excessive weight and width. Problems with the commander's periscope sight, laser warning sight and muzzle reference sight. Transporting Arjun was a problem, as the 58-tonne tank protrudes 6cm beyond the permissible 3cm limit on either side of tank transporters used for India's current MBT, the T-72M1. Back from the dead if Arjun resembles something most from the mythology, its that bird which used to rise from its own ashes Phoenix.
Actually Arjun was always alive and DRDO was raring to go ahead and eliminate all the flaws that Arjun had and give a potent fighting machine to the Indian Army. They started solving all the problems one at a time. DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating thanks to Israel's help. DRDO teamed up with Israeli companies to develop a digital FCS. This FCS was extensively tested by Indian Army & duly accepted. Development of new & better optics by BEL. The MoD has allocated $3.9 million to build three transporter types to mobilise Arjun. Team Arjun has some more achievements to its credit. Some of them are listed below. Chromium lined barrel increases the barrel life & also the muzzle velocity of the shell. Arjun's armor was tested in combat like conditions and fared very well. It also withstood direct hits of APFSDS, HEAT, HESH & various RPG rounds as per the latest trials on September 2003. According to DRDO, the composite "Kanchan" armour gives Arjun a level of protection far better than other contemporary tanks. LAHAT ATGM has been test fired from Arjun. This was achieved by coating the round with rubber; the rubber coating burns off eliminating contact between the barrel and the round. As soon as the round leaves the barrel, rubber coating has burnt off. Due to this technique, rounds can be launched at higher velocities than possible with normal rifled barrels. LAHAT (Laser Homing Attack) with a range of 6km exceeds the capability of Refleks system on T-80UD/T-90S. Never before seen crew protection levels in tanks used by Indian Army. Crew protection is paramount and slight changes have been made here. The ammo storage is in the turret bustle but is modulated and separated from the crew by armor, so that if hit by RPG or top-attack ATGM, crew remains safe. Integrated GPS & BMS (Battlefield Management System). These systems have touch screen for rapid access. State-of-the-art night vision gear allowing the commander to identify targets at ranges more than 5km.
A new Active Area Defense System (AADS) from Elbit. Estimated cost of $ 4 million per piece.

Future

Rifled gun of Arjun gives it a very high accuracy coupled with the latest digital FCS. Currently Arjun can accommodate 39 main gun rounds. It is highly likely that revolving magazine like the one used by Merkava 4 will be incorporated in the later versions of Arjun. Magazine can be loaded with 10 rounds. This is considerably faster than the autoloaders used in other modern tanks, thereby Arjun will have a higher rate of fire. It is heard that India and Russia are jointly developing high-power propellant, which will generate lot more power than the one currently used. This coupled with the accuracy of main gun will give Arjun tremendous power at ranges exceeding 3km, which till now was the weakness of Russian tanks as their main guns tend to lose accuracy & power after 2.5km. Future of Arjun looks very bright. DRDO is much more confident now. The Arjun project has already given birth to several spin-offs namely the Tank Ex, Bhim 155 mm SP artillery vehicle and the Arjun BLT (Bridge- Layer-Tank). Thanks to modular construction, conversion from MBT configuration to SP Gun or BLT configuration is possible by quickly switching the turret on the chasis. Another spin-off is the Arjun turret mounted atop T-72 chasis. It is named Tank-Ex by DRDO (commonly known as Karna). Something that should be immediately apparent to the crew are the spacious fighting and driving compartments, in contrast to the T-72 Ajeya's cramped interior, although it must be noted that a crew of four is carried. The ergonomics are designed from the anthropometrical data of Indian troops. With a super charged 1500 HP engine, the tank has a high power to weight ratio at a combat weight of 58.5 tons and a low ground pressure of 0.84 kgf/cm², speed of 70 km/h on road. Arjun has really come of age & turned into a mighty warrior and is a fitting reply to all those who have criticized DRDO for nothing but "a bunch of jokers".
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Not trying to incense the pro-india lobby here, but I find it doubtful that India would decide to acquire the T-90, if the Arjun had ever reached comparable levels of capability to M1A2, Leopard 2A6 or Lerclerc. These after all were developed by advanced nations with decades of experience at building modern tanks, with Germany and USA in particular. The Arjun while no doubt a worthy effort, was still India's very first attempt at building a modern tank. If it was so good, I fail to see the need for T-90. Cheers.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
i heard there r lots of problems wif Arjun, engines heats too fast and consume way too much fuel. gun stablizers not working too well, and overweight.
maybe indian fix those problems on the improved arjun
 

dabrownguy

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Aussie Digger said:
Not trying to incense the pro-india lobby here, but I find it doubtful that India would decide to acquire the T-90, if the Arjun had ever reached comparable levels of capability to M1A2, Leopard 2A6 or Lerclerc. These after all were developed by advanced nations with decades of experience at building modern tanks, with Germany and USA in particular. The Arjun while no doubt a worthy effort, was still India's very first attempt at building a modern tank. If it was so good, I fail to see the need for T-90. Cheers.
310 t-90s same number of t-80's in PA. T-90 is a quick fix on the indian side to counter t-80.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
dabrownguy said:
310 t-90s same number of t-80's in PA. T-90 is a quick fix on the indian side to counter t-80.
which suggest Arjun lacks capability of T-80, or suffering from technical difficulties dat prevent mass production.
 

mysterious

New Member
Yes, precisely!! If Arjun was comparable to the T-80 (and/or able to be mass produced), it makes little sense to have 'two' tanks (Arjun and T-90) in the Indian Army. T-90 was primarily bought to counter Pakistan's T-80U's and now Arjun is being modified and remodified with God knows how many versions to be produced to keep up with the needs of the Indian Army vis a vis Pakistan and/or China!! :cop
 

adsH

New Member
mysterious said:
Yes, precisely!! If Arjun was comparable to the T-80 (and/or able to be mass produced), it makes little sense to have 'two' tanks (Arjun and T-90) in the Indian Army. T-90 was primarily bought to counter Pakistan's T-80U's and now Arjun is being modified and remodified with God knows how many versions to be produced to keep up with the needs of the Indian Army vis a vis Pakistan and/or China!! :cop
Trust me Guys i know what Argun is, its a pet project!! it will be paraded on national day marches as sign of INdian Defense industry for years to come nothing more.
 

Soldier

New Member
adsH said:
mysterious said:
Yes, precisely!! If Arjun was comparable to the T-80 (and/or able to be mass produced), it makes little sense to have 'two' tanks (Arjun and T-90) in the Indian Army. T-90 was primarily bought to counter Pakistan's T-80U's and now Arjun is being modified and remodified with God knows how many versions to be produced to keep up with the needs of the Indian Army vis a vis Pakistan and/or China!! :cop
Trust me Guys i know what Argun is, its a pet project!! it will be paraded on national day marches as sign of INdian Defense industry for years to come nothing more.
Precisely, Someone dares to deny that trying to build Arjun must have given Indian Engineers a lot of insight to create another project which may come out to be very good? I do not know personally how good arjun is or what problems it has. Surely it has some problems this is why Army has gone for T-90's, but then it is good for a nation who is trying to make its own defence industry with the economy which is growing. I am sure they learnt a lot from this project.
 

adsH

New Member
Soldier said:
Precisely, Someone dares to deny that trying to build Arjun must have given Indian Engineers a lot of insight to create another project which may come out to be very good? I do not know personally how good arjun is or what problems it has. Surely it has some problems this is why Army has gone for T-90's, but then it is good for a nation who is trying to make its own defence industry with the economy which is growing. I am sure they learnt a lot from this project.

Soldier that is what i am saying all this LCA and Argun might not be the Top quality Equipment but i can't imagine INdia without these Projects. INdia has to develop these further, i may call them Pet project and other can call it X projects but they will one day mean something in reality, india has no need for these article in the current climate, india has Time and Market access and enormous money to buy its slef new more suphisticated equipment for its defense. India can simply allow more time for there scientist and engineers to work on these projects.
But some sort of Effort at any level is important for a nation the size of india.
 

Soldier

New Member
AdSH said: Soldier that is what i am saying all this LCA and Argun might not be the Top quality Equipment but i can't imagine INdia without these Projects. INdia has to develop these further, i may call them Pet project and other can call it X projects but they will one day mean something in reality, india has no need for these article in the current climate, india has Time and Market access and enormous money to buy its slef new more suphisticated equipment for its defense. India can simply allow more time for there scientist and engineers to work on these projects.
But some sort of Effort at any level is important for a nation the size of india.[/quote]

I agree with you 100% adSH. Yutong Chen, Asian countries like India or China are not yet developed countries and their product is cheap due to cheap manpower and material, not because of the quality. Right now if the quality is bad, it is mostly due to non-familiarity with highest level of technology which needs to be implemented. India is working and learning from its failures. At the same time, I smell superiority complex from the way you said things. Peace be upon you!
 

adsH

New Member
BUt the thing that has to be further developed is Engineering Technology India has to run engineering Courses at a massive Scale like in the US or UK. And then we can expect nicer Quality equipment coming out of INdia. But to add i still think INdia has good Engineering Skills level it was sufficient enough to produce an Aston Martin Vantaage AMV8 concept Model. it was built by the DC go group of Bombay, and i must comend india on that even tho it was not designed there and it was designed by the Original chief designer of the Porsche a german born who works for AM England Now. but still the Skills is there and now India is Building a newer super cars!! Amazeing a new DC go group Super Car the Engine is Still from the Ford Group!!!!
 

Soldier

New Member
adSH, I guess you are referring to Dilip Chabria of Mumbai. Man, he is a designer of cars who does the custom work himself and brings out nice curves out of the plain raw stock shape. His work is commendable and I commend him for using foreign engines as they are far much better and suited to his revolutionary designs. Perhaps DRDO shall hire him to make pretty looking tanks... :D :D
 

Soldier

New Member
Laser missile developed for ‘Arjun’ tank

NEW DELHI, PTI:
Indian defence scientists have claimed to have achieved a breakthrough by developing a beyond-visual-range missile ‘Lahat’ for the country’s indigenous main battle tank Arjun.

The laser anti-homing Lahat missile is capable of being fired from the 120mm rifle gun of the tank which now gets a capability matching the just-acquired T-90 tanks, which sport a BVR missile of over 5 to 8 km engagement capability.

DRDO officials said that Lahat is a semi-active laser homing missile, which could be fired from the main gun of the tank similar to conventional rounds.
“This would significantly enhance the fighting capability of the MBT Arjun since its maximum effective range is 6 km as compared to the 2.5 km of conventional ammunition,†officials said.

They said the missile could be fired either in a lofted trajectory against armoured fighting vehicles and in flat trajectory against helicopters.

“The fire-control system of the tank would include laser designator to project a coded-laser beam on the target. Target designation can also be done by another tank or ground laser designator,†DRDO scientists said.

The DRDO said some of the newly-developed Lahat missiles had recently been test-fired from the main gun of the MBT Arjun in field trials to confirm the missile launch parameters such as sabot separation.

Officials said the penetration capability of the missile warhead was tested and “the results conform to the requirementsâ€.
:D: :D: :D:

http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/jun172004/n16.asp
 
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